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Low 2-C Mario: In The Final

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liluzivert said:
Matt: Has only debunked 1 out of 9 Low 2-C feats, most of his arguments goes against the wiki’s standards, and has shotgunned so hard that now we have 1K posts and reading all of the stuff that has been said is going to be damn near impossible to read if you don’t have enough free time to.
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The Strawman Matt is fallen and cant' get up.

I debunked all but one feat. You guys invented this fake statement that only one feat is gone to try and discredit me and everyone can see it. I addressed wiki standards all the time, rather it is Cal who is conveniently ignoring the rest of the wiki and pretending that Mario is the one odd verse out. Thirdly, "Shotgunning" is not a real argument. You cannot continuously try to misrepresent and denegrate my image only to expect no answer. You guys keep painting me as an absolute idiot and then expect me not to call you out on it.

And it's really hypocritical to simultaneously complain that a Mod is active while saying the other Mods are invalid due to a lack of activity.
 
Matthew_Schroeder said:
The Strawman Matt is fallen and cant' get up.

I debunked all but one feat. You guys invented this fake statement that only one feat is gone to try and discredit me and everyone can see it. I addressed wiki standards all the time, rather it is Cal who is conveniently ignoring the rest of the wiki and pretending that Mario is the one odd verse out. Thirdly, "Shotgunning" is not a real argument. You cannot continuously try to misrepresent and denegrate my image only to expect no answer. You guys keep painting me as an absolute idiot and then expect me not to call you out on it.

And it's really hypocritical to simultaneously complain that a Mod is active while saying the other Mods are invalid due to a lack of activity.
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Most people who went over your arguments can agree with me that they aren’t valid once so ever. Olly, World only meaning planet, and Surface Area for tier 2 are all great examples. And yes, you have been shotgunning the whole time, everyone can see this by going back to the older pages.

This right here is a strawman. I am not complaining because of mod activity, I am complaining because of their lack of arguments. It is completely understandable why some aren’t active.
 
Matthew_Schroeder said:
Olly's problem is absolutely real. It would never be accepted as Low 2-C in any other verse, you are asking for blatant favoritism beause Olly says he is "folding the very fabric of reality" with no further context that he be ranked as Low 2-C. In fact, this isn't even the first time, because months ago you guys wanted Low 2-C Culex based on a statement about him being "the master of all space-time" with no further feat or context behind the single line of dialogue.
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False comparison,there is difference between being stated to be the master of time and space and folding the very fabric of reality.In fact we see everything being folded and changed which makes it blatant
 
Matthew_Schroeder said:
The Strawman Matt is fallen and cant' get up.

I debunked all but one feat. You guys invented this fake statement that only one feat is gone to try and discredit me and everyone can see it. I addressed wiki standards all the time, rather it is Cal who is conveniently ignoring the rest of the wiki and pretending that Mario is the one odd verse out. Thirdly, "Shotgunning" is not a real argument. You cannot continuously try to misrepresent and denegrate my image only to expect no answer. You guys keep painting me as an absolute idiot and then expect me not to call you out on it.

And it's really hypocritical to simultaneously complain that a Mod is active while saying the other Mods are invalid due to a lack of activity.
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you ”debunked“ the black jewel by saying creating a universe doesn’t scale to AP, a statement so blatantly wrong that it makes you little conspiracy theory look like fact.
 
Ari64-SP said:
you ”debunked“ the black jewel by saying creating a universe doesn’t scale to AP, a statement so blatantly wrong that it makes you little conspiracy theory look like fact.
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1. There is literally two staff threads about this lol and the agreement seems to be that we need context for it.

Starsprite53 said:
False comparison,there is difference between being stated to be the master of time and space and folding the very fabric of reality.In fact we see everything being folded and changed which makes it blatant
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Folding the fabric of reality just means it is space-time.

We see everything in a room being folded. We never get a shot of the whole planet let alone the skies or the stars being folded.

I'm sorry if you think it's valid but it's not in VBW standards.
 
liluzivert said:
Ample reasons? Let’s dive into the opposing sides arguments:

Matt: Has only debunked 1 out of 9 Low 2-C feats, most of his arguments goes against the wiki’s standards, and has shotgunned so hard that now we have 1K posts and reading all of the stuff that has been said is going to be damn near impossible to read if you don’t have enough free time to.

Ryu: Says no because “wank”, then talks about Mario not being a Shounen and Rosalina scaling which doesn’t covers all of Weeb’s posts.

Dino: Says no because “we can’t have low 2-C toad” and scaling problems. This didn’t cover anything and was debunked, then he comes back to talk about circular scaling with Bowser, which he claims most of the feats are from beating amped versions of him when it’s only one and cal, blaze, and I’m pretty sure even DDM debunked this.


I understand that staff are trusted members that can handle these situations well, but they cannot be above regular members if they don’t have good counterarguments and are just saying “no” without even going over what was said in the crt. This is why people are mad. Staff members are saying “no” with not much reason, and it gets accepted anyway because they’re staff, and all of these good arguments the first side is arguing and all of the effort that Blaze has put into this just gets ignored because “we don’t want it”.
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This
 
Matthew_Schroeder said:
1. There is literally two staff threads about this lol and the agreement seems to be that we need context for it.
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his death caused the destruction of the entire real, proving that his energy was what was stopping it from not existing. You claimed that it shouldn’t scale to AP. HOW. You then claimed that Wario wasn’t comparable, when Wario beat the guy, and could survive hits from him. What context is needed for the feat?
 
Both sides aren't going to back down, and both sides realize this since both sides have argued that the other side is only still arguing because they refuse to give up. I think we are not going to hear the end of this unless we throw out two final arguments and let a neutral party decide which isn't likely.
 
I agree with AKM as well. It really is a compromise for some stonewalling.

To be honest the Tier 2 feat that directly scales to Mario is arguably the Super Paper Mario one. Even then it's not entirely certain if the cast just tanked that destruction all together or were simply teleported back to Flipside. All the other alleged Tier 2 feats have been outright debunked. And one feat that is drastically above every other feat is the definition of an outlier. The "variable tier" is really just a way of saying "I want to accept an outlier in the profile." If we're to do that for Mario, sure. But for consistency then so many other characters. I mean they all "vary" as well.
 
"Ryu: Says no because “wank”, then talks about Mario not being a Shounen and Rosalina scaling which doesn’t covers all of Weeb’s posts."

This is the most hilariously dishonest strawman I have ever seen on my 5+ years on this site. Anyone can just go back a few posts and see that my arguments were much more in depth than this. Hell I never even said the word "wank" a single time and yet they quote me on this and act like it was my sole reasoning. This is such an easily verifiable lie. It's almost impressive how bad it is.
 
Ryukama said:
I agree with AKM as well. It really is a compromise for some stonewalling.

To be honest the Tier 2 feat that directly scales to Mario is arguably the Super Paper Mario one. Even then it's not entirely certain if the cast just tanked that destruction all together or were simply teleported back to Flipside. All the other alleged Tier 2 feats have been outright debunked. And one feat that is drastically above every other feat is the definition of an outlier. The "variable tier" is really just a way of saying "I want to accept an outlier in the profile." If we're to do that for Mario, sure. But for consistency then so many other characters. I mean they all "vary" as well.
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Ok. Then tell us why are other feats wrong.
 
Ryukama said:
To be honest the Tier 2 feat that directly scales to Mario is arguably the Super Paper Mario one. Even then it's not entirely certain if the cast just tanked that destruction all together or were simply teleported back to Flipside.
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Why would you believe this? You are creating a debunk without having any evedence.
Ryukama said:
All the other alleged Tier 2 feats have been outright debunked.
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HOW?
Edit: Removed the profanity
 
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Our side says he debunked 1, there side says he debunked all or all except one. This is a case of personal opinion on the matter, the inconclusive crowd will have the best insight due to not being opinionated, so can we have a explanation from them?
 
And they're tired of hearing "They haven't debunked any tier 2 feats!" or "They have only debunked 1 tier 2 feat, the rest of their arguments of stupid!"
 
AKM sama said:
The fact that the thread has gone over 1000 comments and there was still no conclusion reached about the tier 2 feats (except for the "compromise" solution which basically just means acceptance of tier 2 and invalidates all the arguments made against it), should be a conclusion in and of itself that those feats have serious problems of unreliability and thus shouldn't be used. People should be able to see this.
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If the feats were so entirely unreliable, then there wouldn't be this much contention over them in the first place though. Real_Cal, Weeb, and DDM have shown that there's a strong validity for a number of them. Calling the feats useless invalidates the pro-upgrade side as well. 1000 comments and no conclusion doesn't mean they're reliable or unreliable, it just means there's 11 pages of debate between incredibly dedicated/stubborn people.
 
1. The ancients are an unnamed, offscreen group of people who collectively used unspecified technology (that they eventually lost) to perform what is possibly a Tier 2 feat hundreds of years before Mario was born. I should not have to explain why this doesn’t scale to Mario.

2. Dream Manipulation hax =/= universe destroying raw AP. Again goes without saying.

3. The 64 statements are from third party sources that have been rejected in the past. So are some of the Shadow Queen ones.

4. Shadow Queen doesn’t scale to her artifacts, and the game’s use of “world” clearly refers to the planet. As her darkness visibly only covers the entire planet and does so over the course of minutes. When the phrase "world destroying/threatening/taking over" or whatever is used, we do not assume entire universe unless there is explicit evidence that it does mean universe.

5. No one except Rosalina actually withstood the universe being destroyed (with it technically being unclear whether or not she did it with her shields), and it is made explicitly clear that she was the only one capable of doing so. Mario and Peach needed to be shielded, Bowser cannot even withstand touching the generator’s energy without injuring himself, meaning he clearly does not scale to the full energy of the reactor or the destruction its collapse caused. Bowser was "survived" because the universe was reset, and Mario and Peach "escaped Bowser's immediate fate" cause they were shielded unlike him. It doesn't mean Bowser withstood the universe being destroyed. Again only Rosalina did. Mario being “comparable” to Rosalina in gameplay does not mean Mario did offscreen, unmentioned shonen training to become as strong as her. It’s gameplay mechanics. AKA the reason why Rosalina can get hurt by goombas or falling rocks. Actually accepting gameplay mechanics and having them take precedence over canon cutscenes is opening the floodgates to all sorts of ridiculous anti-feats. It does not help the case of upgrading Mario at all.

6. The Wario fade to white is vague as hell and was able to be survived by characters explicitly “so weak” that it takes a collective group to build a house. It’s probably not meant to be taken as some universe collapsing attack that takes literally infinite durability to survive.

7. A single line that says “Folding the fabric of reality” does not prove that this was done on a universal scale, nor should it be treated as Universal without any actual feats to back it up. Reality/space-time can be affected on less than universal scales. Not every single reality warper/space-time manipulator is automatically Tier 2. And again, the word "world" being tossed is not a Tier 2 feat. Never was and never will.

These are a brief summary but if you actually care to you can go back and read Matt and I's actual messages instead of straight up lying about what I said. Regardless of whether or not you disagree it's not like we just went "No it's wank" and left it at that.
 
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Ryukama said:
5. No one except Rosalina actually withstood the universe being destroyed, and it is made explicitly clear that she was the only one capable of doing so. Mario and Peach needed to be shielded, Bowser cannot even withstand touching the generator’s energy without injuring himself, meaning he clearly does not scale to the full energy of the reactor or the destruction its collapse caused. Mario being “comparable” to Rosalina in gameplay does not mean Mario did offscreen, off mentioned shonen training to become as strong as her. It’s gameplay mechanics. AKA the reason why Rosalina can get hurt by goombas or falling rocks.
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Can you prove that Mario and Peach need to be shielded as well as the fact Bowser didn't survive the full energy of the explosion? Also Mario scaling to Rosalina seems legit to me as both are physically comparable it seems
Ryukama said:
6. The Wario fade to white is vague as hell and was able to be survived by characters explicitly “so weak” that it takes a collective group to build a house. It’s probably not meant to be taken as some universe collapsing attack that takes literally infinite durability to survive.
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Can you prove that this weak group was at the explosion and got touched by it?
 
1. Why did Rosalina shield Mario and Peach in the first place if they could've just tanked it. Why are Mario and Peach being treated as being fortunate and lucky that she did so if it was entirely unnecessary?

2. Mario and Rosalina are never shown comparable outside of gameplay.

3. Bowser cannot even tank touching a portion of the energy of the reactor itself. Let alone the energy of the explosion the reactor's destruction caused.

4. Uhh if you want to claim this "explosion" was universe encompassing then by definition they got caught in it.

Also this is not how burden of proof works. You need to prove that Tier 2 feats occurred. I don't need to prove that Tier 2 feats didn't occur.
 
Ryukama said:
1. The ancients are an unnamed, offscreen group of people who collectively used unspecified technology (that they eventually lost) to perform what is possibly a Tier 2 feat hundreds of years before Mario was born. I should not have to explain why this doesn’t scale to Mario.
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Don't Wracktail, Shadoo and Mimi scale to The ancients?
Also wasn't the unspecified technology the Pixls? "With the help of the Pixls, the Ancients built amazing worlds. But now that technology is mostly gone, as the Pixls are scattered and forgotten."
 
Ryukama said:
1. The ancients are an unnamed, offscreen group of people who collectively used unspecified technology (that they eventually lost) to perform what is possibly a Tier 2 feat hundreds of years before Mario was born. I should not have to explain why this doesn’t scale to Mario.
Click to expand...
You mean that Technology, the pixels, that Mario and his friends use and damage enemies can tank attacks from it? Mario also destroy Fracktail, A robot made by the ancients to protect thier important powerfull artafict (the pure heart), what should make him stronger than thier normal technology
Ryukama said:
2. Dream Manipulation hax =/= universe destroying raw AP. Again goes without saying.
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Exept that the Dream here is a Universe, so turning him to Nightmare is indeed a Universal reality warping feat and we scale reality warping to AP

Ryukama said:
6. The Wario fade to white is vague as hell and was able to be survived by characters explicitly “so weak” that it takes a collective group to build a house. It’s probably not meant to be taken as some universe collapsing attack that takes literally infinite durability to survive.
Click to expand...
I do not see how the Spriteling needing big number of them to build a castle can disprove them having Low 2C Durability especially that that is thier only durablity feat
 
Ryukama said:
5. No one except Rosalina actually withstood the universe being destroyed (with it technically being unclear whether or not she did it with her shields), and it is made explicitly clear that she was the only one capable of doing so. Mario and Peach needed to be shielded, Bowser cannot even withstand touching the generator’s energy without injuring himself, meaning he clearly does not scale to the full energy of the reactor or the destruction its collapse caused. Bowser was "survived" because the universe was reset, and Mario and Peach "escaped Bowser's immediate fate" cause they were shielded unlike him. It doesn't mean Bowser withstood the universe being destroyed. Again only Rosalina did. Mario being “comparable” to Rosalina in gameplay does not mean Mario did offscreen, unmentioned shonen training to become as strong as her. It’s gameplay mechanics. AKA the reason why Rosalina can get hurt by goombas or falling rocks. Actually accepting gameplay mechanics and having them take precedence over canon cutscenes is opening the floodgates to all sorts of ridiculous anti-feats. It does not help the case of upgrading Mario at all.

6. The Wario fade to white is vague as hell and was able to be survived by characters explicitly “so weak” that it takes a collective group to build a house. It’s probably not meant to be taken as some universe collapsing attack that takes literally infinite durability to survive.
Click to expand...
Technically we see that bowser was quite injured, not being able to stand up straight and falling backwards, and this damage must have been done by the universal black hole or the universal Big Bang. Pick your poison.

The Jewel created that dimension in the first place. Plus, before he creates the universe, we see a white void. Then after he is defeated, that white void returns.
 
Ryukama said:
7. A single line that says “Folding the fabric of reality” does not prove that this was done on a universal scale, nor should it be treated as Universal without any actual feats to back it up. Reality/space-time can be affected on less than universal scales. Not every single reality warper/space-time manipulator is automatically Tier 2. And again, the word "world" being tossed is not a Tier 2 feat. Never was and never will.
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DDM has already debunked this but I guess I’ll repeat what he said. Olly says he’s folding the very fabric of reality, not the fabric of reality.” “Very fabric of reality” means all of spacetime. Seems like everyone else is going over your points, but I will say I appreciate you actually going over all of the points being made.
 
What Matt said. Also the exact method, matter and timeframe (very important here) in which the Pixls (or even which Pixls actually did) this feat is unknown. It is way too vague to actually derive anything from. Not only that but people do not physically scale to their weapons. They wouldn't have to create weapons in the first place otherwise.

Again, the interpretation that Bowser survived the universe destroying blast itself is not supported given that this same guidebook being clinged on to explicitly says that he can't even touch a small portion of the generator's energy without hurting himself. Or that this same guidebook depicted Rosalina needing to shield Mario (who is allegedly supposed to be the one scaling to Bowser here) from the same blast. What really happened was that Bowser, along with every living or nonliving thing in existence, was brought back from the universe resetting.
 
"The very" is an intensifier. It is meant to emphasise the significance or relevance in the context or even to give more intensity to the noun. It does not imply the entirety of something.
 
liluzivert said:
DDM has already debunked this but I guess I’ll repeat what he said. Olly says he’s folding the very fabric of reality, not the fabric of reality.” “Very fabric of reality” means all of spacetime. Seems like everyone else is going over your points, but I will say I appreciate you actually going over all of the points being made.
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"The very" means nothing. In the English language it's just a way to emphasize a point. "The very" fabric of reality and "the" fabric of reality mean the exact same thing. It doesn't mean all of space-time, it's just emphasizing that folding the fabric of reality is impressive.
 
Ryukama said:
1. The ancients are an unnamed, offscreen group of people who collectively used unspecified technology (that they eventually lost) to perform what is possibly a Tier 2 feat hundreds of years before Mario was born. I should not have to explain why this doesn’t scale to Mario.

2. Dream Manipulation hax =/= universe destroying raw AP. Again goes without saying.

3. The 64 statements are from third party sources that have been rejected in the past. So are some of the Shadow Queen ones.

4. Shadow Queen doesn’t scale to her artifacts, and the game’s use of “world” clearly refers to the planet. As her darkness visibly only covers the entire planet and does so over the course of minutes. When the phrase "world destroying/threatening/taking over" or whatever is used, we do not assume entire universe unless there is explicit evidence that it does mean universe.

5. No one except Rosalina actually withstood the universe being destroyed (with it technically being unclear whether or not she did it with her shields), and it is made explicitly clear that she was the only one capable of doing so. Mario and Peach needed to be shielded, Bowser cannot even withstand touching the generator’s energy without injuring himself, meaning he clearly does not scale to the full energy of the reactor or the destruction its collapse caused. Bowser was "survived" because the universe was reset, and Mario and Peach "escaped Bowser's immediate fate" cause they were shielded unlike him. It doesn't mean Bowser withstood the universe being destroyed. Again only Rosalina did. Mario being “comparable” to Rosalina in gameplay does not mean Mario did offscreen, unmentioned shonen training to become as strong as her. It’s gameplay mechanics. AKA the reason why Rosalina can get hurt by goombas or falling rocks. Actually accepting gameplay mechanics and having them take precedence over canon cutscenes is opening the floodgates to all sorts of ridiculous anti-feats. It does not help the case of upgrading Mario at all.

6. The Wario fade to white is vague as hell and was able to be survived by characters explicitly “so weak” that it takes a collective group to build a house. It’s probably not meant to be taken as some universe collapsing attack that takes literally infinite durability to survive.

7. A single line that says “Folding the fabric of reality” does not prove that this was done on a universal scale, nor should it be treated as Universal without any actual feats to back it up. Reality/space-time can be affected on less than universal scales. Not every single reality warper/space-time manipulator is automatically Tier 2. And again, the word "world" being tossed is not a Tier 2 feat. Never was and never will.

These are a brief summary but if you actually care to you can go back and read Matt and I's actual messages instead of straight up lying about what I said. Regardless of whether or not you disagree it's not like we just went "No it's wank" and left it at that.
Click to expand...
Bowser can't even touch the generator? First, majority of damage is done by Mario. Second, it's hot. Bowser was always weak to lava.
 
Da_Lunge_Fish said:
Bowser can't even touch the generator? First, majority of damage is done by Mario. Second, it's hot. Bowser was always weak to lava.
Click to expand...
There are games where Bowser swims in laval and games where Bowser is reduced to a drybones in lava. His resistance is inconsistent.

Secondly its a Star Reactor, the energy in it is significantly greater than that of normal fire or lava, it's not a fair comparison.
 
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