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LOTR verse speed
- Thread starter Arceus0x
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I agree that the Immeasurable speed ratings do not hold up; however, I am not knowledgeable about LOTR's lore of the gods other than stuff I hear from others. But the reasons do not seem to warrant an infinite speed let alone an Immeasurable speed rating.
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Yeah it isnt Immeasurable or Infinite speed, but I am not a expert in the verse, these users should be called to this thread, as they are supporters of the verse and perhaps they know a better context to it
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It would be better to ask Knowledgable Members on Lord of the Rings section; though half of them are inactive iirc. Especially Azathoth.
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Oh, I didnt knew that part existed
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@Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer @Edenstar @Newendigo @Legion350 @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @GojiBoyForever @InfiniteSped
Would you be willing to help out here please?
Would you be willing to help out here please?
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Regarding Vigilot, the ship that traversed space.
"But they took Vingilot, and hallowed it, and bore it away through Valimor to the uttermost rim of the world; and there it passed through the Door of Night and was lifted up even into the oceans of heaven".
"Far he journeyed in that ship, even into the starless voids; but most often was he seen at morning or at evening, glimmering in sunrise or sunset, as he came back to Valinor from voyages beyond the confines of the world".
"But they took Vingilot, and hallowed it, and bore it away through Valimor to the uttermost rim of the world; and there it passed through the Door of Night and was lifted up even into the oceans of heaven".
"Far he journeyed in that ship, even into the starless voids; but most often was he seen at morning or at evening, glimmering in sunrise or sunset, as he came back to Valinor from voyages beyond the confines of the world".
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Regarding Varda's creation of the stars
The creation of the stars in the Silmarillion is not given an exact timeframe, but is said that "Varda had wrought them in the ages forgotten of her labours in Eä", and that there were "innumerable stars, faint and far"
Later, when she creates the constellations, it's written "She took the silver dews from the vats of Telperion, and therewith she made new stars and brighter against the comming of the Firstborn...", and regarding the creation of the constellations, it stated "even as Varda ended her labours, and they were long..."
The creation of the stars in the Silmarillion is not given an exact timeframe, but is said that "Varda had wrought them in the ages forgotten of her labours in Eä", and that there were "innumerable stars, faint and far"
Later, when she creates the constellations, it's written "She took the silver dews from the vats of Telperion, and therewith she made new stars and brighter against the comming of the Firstborn...", and regarding the creation of the constellations, it stated "even as Varda ended her labours, and they were long..."
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@Mr._Bambu @KieranH10 @Migue79 @Jasonsith
WOuld any of you be willing to calculate the required speeds of these feats please?
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Hop dunno b0ss, that seems incalculable, likely intentionally vague to portray a godly sense of speed/display of power. Very common for Tolkien to do in this franchise.
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The creation of the stars happened on an unknown date as far as I'm aware, but the constellations were finished around 1050 of the Years of the Trees, and it's stated that their creation began not long before the Elves awoke, but long enough for the task to be considered long (which doesn't help I know, but it's basically a reasonably close timeframe).
The speed of Vigilot is probably MFTL+ outright to an unknown degree, since it literally moves fast enough to go past an innumerable amount of stars, and come back in a reasonable timeframe.
The speed of Vigilot is probably MFTL+ outright to an unknown degree, since it literally moves fast enough to go past an innumerable amount of stars, and come back in a reasonable timeframe.
Hellbeast
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Which character is this in reference to?
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The character that traversed space is likely referring to the ship Vigilot, and the character that moved/made the stars is Varda.
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For the record, Vigilot does scale to some characters, as the winged dragons were involved in a conflict against it and the eagles for an extended period of time, and Sauron scales above even the strongest among the winged dragons.
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Do you have anything for Sauron being stronger than Ancalagon?
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Strongest named servant of Morgoth, and multiple sources refer to him as such in various ways. We discuss it further on the downgrade thread.
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Although one thing I'll note, which hasn't been mentioned yet, is that the Fellowship of the Ring has a line where Gandalf says, whilst some dragons did melt some rings if power, not even Ancalagon could melt the One, as it was made by Sauron, and I believe it was due to the fact it contained most of his power.
I'll give more details on the status of Sauron as the greatest of Morgoth's servants on my next post on the downgrade thread.
I'll give more details on the status of Sauron as the greatest of Morgoth's servants on my next post on the downgrade thread.
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- Thread starter
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remove immesurable and use whatever other speed option we have
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Copying this from the LOTR Downgrade thread (which really needs a new name), since this is the main thread for LOTR speed.
Speed of the Spirit forms of the Ainur:
Nothing particularly new for their physical forms, but NOME has made it clear that the Ainur as a whole can, and I quote:
""... it is often mentioned in the legends that certain of the Valar, and occasionally of the Maiar, "passed over the Sea", and appeared in Middle Earth"... They could go where they willed, and that is could be present at once at any point in Eä"
Their physical forms, moreover, did not limit this ability, as the Ainur as a whole could discard it instantly and remake it - "For their bodies were self-made. They houseless as spirits could go where they would (either slowly or immediately), and could then re-clothe themselves."
The only limitation in the footnotes, was that they were subject to the limitations of Eru, meaning they could not exit Arda until its breaking, which is relevant only for indexing. Moreover, their physical forms cannot pass through solid objects "had the properties of material substances. were resisted by or offered resistance to other physical things"
Only Melkor "became at last bound to a bodily form", meaning he was the only one who cannot instantly shift to move where he willed, alongside the Istari (Sauron is mentioned as moving as a spirit after the downfall of Numenor for instance, even after he forged his Ring)
Speed of the Spirit forms of the Ainur:
Nothing particularly new for their physical forms, but NOME has made it clear that the Ainur as a whole can, and I quote:
""... it is often mentioned in the legends that certain of the Valar, and occasionally of the Maiar, "passed over the Sea", and appeared in Middle Earth"... They could go where they willed, and that is could be present at once at any point in Eä"
Their physical forms, moreover, did not limit this ability, as the Ainur as a whole could discard it instantly and remake it - "For their bodies were self-made. They houseless as spirits could go where they would (either slowly or immediately), and could then re-clothe themselves."
The only limitation in the footnotes, was that they were subject to the limitations of Eru, meaning they could not exit Arda until its breaking, which is relevant only for indexing. Moreover, their physical forms cannot pass through solid objects "had the properties of material substances. were resisted by or offered resistance to other physical things"
Only Melkor "became at last bound to a bodily form", meaning he was the only one who cannot instantly shift to move where he willed, alongside the Istari (Sauron is mentioned as moving as a spirit after the downfall of Numenor for instance, even after he forged his Ring)
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Not that well versed in the Valar lore but I could help calc found feats if needed
Being present at once at any point literally would mean infinite speed I suppose, don't know how serious is that meant to be taken
Being present at once at any point literally would mean infinite speed I suppose, don't know how serious is that meant to be taken
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It's not that they're everywhere at once, but that the Ainur, including the Maiar, can move anywhere instantly if they wanted to, so long as they're in the bodiless form, which they can go into and leave whenever they want, unless they're permanently embodied, like Morgoth later down the line, and the Istari.
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