[Losers R5M1] Venefica's Tier 7 Tourney: Cinner vs Haruka (REMATCH)

[VeneficaAuthor]

Original Tourney Thread
Tourney Bracket
Votes

Character	Key	Votes
Cinner​	Pure Form Mastery	5
Haruka	Suppressed	0
Inconclusive		0

Welcome to the losers bracket! Whoever loses in the losers bracket will have NO remaining chances in the tourney. Good luck! Winner advances to face Leaf Girl in Loser's Grand Finals.

For this match, the arguments for those who believed Cinner should have one the original match will be further discussed. If everyone's mind is changed, the match added to the profiles will be replaced by this one.

40 meters starting distance with equal speed.

Both at 7-A.

 

[MintyBoi1]

As discussed last time, Cinner has an advantage in skill/experience and acrobatics which would help him get into Haruka’s range and trick her with his ESP and Analytical Prediction. I also still think Haruka’s Reactive Evolution was a bit exaggerated. The feat given with Asuna beating Kedron who had more experience is good, but Cinner has taken on people like Haruka with long range attacks and scythes, warriors with centuries of experienced as opposed to just more than Asuna who just got Isekaid into the verse and Shizu, and experience with people like Fetter and Rinser who have similar feats to Kedron killing hundreds of magicians, beating many members of the main cast. Rinser himself of course had piercing attacks, his own esp/prediction, and the ability to suck in Cinner’s aura which was the way he won prior fights. Speaking of his aura, I’ll just point out what Froggy said about prolonged exposure. Haruka can take the temperature of lightning, but I do think if Cinner gets the chance to keep her in range for a while with Strong Leap and senses to always know where she is, it’ll start wearing her down.

Haruka’s win conditions depend on being able to adapt to Cinner’s skill and keep away which he has counters for. He has blocked sniper rounds at close range, so her sniping would also be a bit less effective even with homing attacks, especially given the infinite space he has to escape sight and attack. I also noticed “Magic is commonly seen to be in the form of physical energy as an attack, such as beams.” This matches up with Ki which is also physical/bodily energy so Cinner’s power nullification may work here, and it hasn’t been shown to have a time limit like Haruka’s. As long as his Ki could overpower her attacks with enough exposure, it could work. He managed to overpower High-Flyer who could deal major damage to him and had a speed advantage, so since both are mountain it could work. He could also potentially absorb the air Haruka uses to control her scythe which she’d have no way to see coming.

Onto Haruka’s regeneration, I previously listed ideas such as crushing her throat for an instant kill or shoving Lifeline into/through her skull for brain damage. Instant healing is kinda broken, but that just means Cinner needs to win fast which is the entire point of his kit. Countering and evading until the opportunity arises to finish off the enemy with quick attacks and pins. And it’s worth noting Cinner also has impressive regeneration only a tier below. He can’t regrow limbs or anything but bones and organs are on the table, bones continually regenerating during his 72 hours fight with Rinser, even while his energy was being drained.

And just to mention it, Cinner can assuredly break out of the Void of Despair with his Supernatural Willpower and resistance to fear manipulation. So that’s a major option for Haruka that won’t work. Cinner has plenty of options for surviving Haruka long enough to get her where he wants her and finish her off with strong moves like Metal Crush and Lightning Breaker. She has portals but Cinner’s rapid movement should let him pursue or just stop her from using it after enough times seeing it.

 

[Froggytron]

Welcome to the losers bracket! Whoever loses in the losers bracket will have NO remaining chances in the tourney. Good luck! Winner advances to face Leaf Girl in Loser's Grand Finals.

Not sure if a rematch like this is necessary (with Leaf Girl taking the second place from the main bracket, that's what I meant, the losers tourney being solely a competition for a third place).

I thought the bronze medal would share similarly to Abliter and GGesom (their fight for third place in the Low 7-B tourney resulting inconclusive), but whatever, the advancer fighting Leaf Girl for the number 2 position also seems interesting. But it kinda messes with the idea of "putting 2 verse characters into one wing so they don't reach the finale and don't concur number 1 and 2 spots easily", with this ruleset it is possible again, the SAO thing can repeat

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

I thought the bronze medal would share similarly to Abliter and GGesom (their fight for third place in the Low 7-B tourney resulting inconclusive), but whatever, the advancer fighting Leaf Girl for the number 2 position also seems interesting. But it kinda messes with the idea of "putting 2 verse characters into one wing so they don't reach the finale and don't concur number 1 and 2 spots easily", with this ruleset it is possible again, the SAO thing can repeat

Originally that’s the kind of 3rd place match I was going for, but those whole lower bracket thing seemed to be a great idea. If I had gone for the original idea, it appears the third place match would be Maka Albarn vs Haruka

Also yeah if both of them keep winning, it’s guaranteed that they face each other basically no matter what the ruleset is. Funny enough, if Haruka vs asuna is in Grands, that would be the third time in recent memory with intraverse characters take both first and second place (yours truly is guilty of one of them). For the next tourney I’m going to find a method to make this IMPOSSIBLE to occur.

 

[Froggytron]

As discussed last time, Cinner has an advantage in skill/experience and acrobatics which would help him get into Haruka’s range and trick her with his ESP and Analytical Prediction. I also still think Haruka’s Reactive Evolution was a bit exaggerated. The feat given with Asuna beating Kedron who had more experience is good, but Cinner has taken on people like Haruka with long range attacks and scythes, warriors with centuries of experienced as opposed to just more than Asuna who just got Isekaid into the verse and Shizu, and experience with people like Fetter and Rinser who have similar feats to Kedron killing hundreds of magicians, beating many members of the main cast. Rinser himself of course had piercing attacks, his own esp/prediction, and the ability to suck in Cinner’s aura which was the way he won prior fights. Speaking of his aura, I’ll just point out what Froggy said about prolonged exposure. Haruka can take the temperature of lightning, but I do think if Cinner gets the chance to keep her in range for a while with Strong Leap and senses to always know where she is, it’ll start wearing her down.

Haruka’s win conditions depend on being able to adapt to Cinner’s skill and keep away which he has counters for. He has blocked sniper rounds at close range, so her sniping would also be a bit less effective even with homing attacks, especially given the infinite space he has to escape sight and attack. I also noticed “Magic is commonly seen to be in the form of physical energy as an attack, such as beams.” This matches up with Ki which is also physical/bodily energy so Cinner’s power nullification may work here, and it hasn’t been shown to have a time limit like Haruka’s. As long as his Ki could overpower her attacks with enough exposure, it could work. He managed to overpower High-Flyer who could deal major damage to him and had a speed advantage, so since both are mountain it could work. He could also potentially absorb the air Haruka uses to control her scythe which she’d have no way to see coming.

Onto Haruka’s regeneration, I previously listed ideas such as crushing her throat for an instant kill or shoving Lifeline into/through her skull for brain damage. Instant healing is kinda broken, but that just means Cinner needs to win fast which is the entire point of his kit. Countering and evading until the opportunity arises to finish off the enemy with quick attacks and pins. And it’s worth noting Cinner also has impressive regeneration only a tier below. He can’t regrow limbs or anything but bones and organs are on the table, bones continually regenerating during his 72 hours fight with Rinser, even while his energy was being drained.

And just to mention it, Cinner can assuredly break out of the Void of Despair with his Supernatural Willpower and resistance to fear manipulation. So that’s a major option for Haruka that won’t work. Cinner has plenty of options for surviving Haruka long enough to get her where he wants her and finish her off with strong moves like Metal Crush and Lightning Breaker. She has portals but Cinner’s rapid movement should let him pursue or just stop her from using it after enough times seeing it.

+ Once more lean Cinner here based on all brought back, without exaggerating of Haruka, he possesses better ways of dealing with Haruka's arsenal (based on her profile) than Haruka with Cinner's.

that would be the third time in recent memory with intraverse characters take both first and second place (yours truly is guilty of one of them).

When did two FU units get into the 1 and 2 spots? Besides a single 8-round tourney, they get stuck at round 2 every time with bad drawing luck which somehow always repeats

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

When did two FU units get into the 1 and 2 spots? Besides a single 8-round tourney, they get stuck at round 2 every time with bad drawing luck

Sorry, yours truly was a reference to myself, because Ako and Vacteria reached the finals in Leo’s tourney

 

[MintyBoi1]

Originally that’s the kind of 3rd place match I was going for, but those whole lower bracket thing seemed to be a great idea. If I had gone for the original idea, it appears the third place match would be Maka Albarn vs Haruka

Also yeah if both of them keep winning, it’s guaranteed that they face each other basically no matter what the ruleset is. Funny enough, if Haruka vs asuna is in Grands, that would be the third time in recent memory with intraverse characters take both first and second place (yours truly is guilty of one of them). For the next tourney I’m going to find a method to make this IMPOSSIBLE to occur.

It’d be fun to see that. There’s actually a part in the manga where Maka is harassed by this basically illusion telling her she’s weak and she can’t do anything right before Soul helps her out of her rut. I can imagine the same exact thing happening with Haruka’s void, with Soul communicating with Maka in the Black Room and snapping her back into the fight.

 

[Javenplayz253]

Sorry, yours truly was a reference to myself, because Ako and Vacteria reached the finals in Leo’s tourney

If I came into the vs scene a bit earlier I would've beat EVERYONE-

 

[Froggytron]

If I came into the vs scene a bit earlier I would've beat EVERYONE-

By sharing such prideful words, an Akumo reply will soon find a way to you

 

[Javenplayz253]

By sharing such prideful words, an Akumo reply will soon fall on you

I WAS KIDDING-

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

By sharing such prideful words, an Akumo reply will soon find a way to you

I WAS KIDDING-

I love how my novel-like reply has sort of become a meme between our group here lol

 

[MintyBoi1]

If I came into the vs scene a bit earlier I would've beat EVERYONE-

Bro, I’m sorry but both of your characters got wiped

 

[Javenplayz253]

Bro, I’m sorry but both of your characters got wiped

 

[Javenplayz253]

Where's Ray I recall seeing him at 3am today he's probably asleep tho

 

[MintyBoi1]

Last online at 6 AM

 

[Javenplayz253]

Last online at 6 AM

Ah, I see

 

[Rayfire]

Onto Haruka’s regeneration, I previously listed ideas such as crushing her throat for an instant kill or shoving Lifeline into/through her skull for brain damage. Instant healing is kinda broken, but that just means Cinner needs to win fast which is the entire point of his kit. Countering and evading until the opportunity arises to finish off the enemy with quick attacks and pins. And it’s worth noting Cinner also has impressive regeneration only a tier below. He can’t regrow limbs or anything but bones and organs are on the table, bones continually regenerating during his 72 hours fight with Rinser, even while his energy was being drained.

Gon try to keep everything as short as possible, naturally

I don’t think Haruka will just die from those that easily. Asuna, for example, has survived organ obliteration (Takign a hit for Shizu against Kedron) without any issues. Which is also why they have Type 2 Immortality. If a semi-clumsily starting out Asuna can tank that no problem and not die, I don’t think either of those will be an immediate death for Haruka.

I find it hard to believe that Cinner can do some immediate damage to haruka’s brain too, especially when he’s at a 3x AP disadvantage if I remember correctly. Even if something like metal crusher does land, it’d take a lot of them to actually do something substantial, and by then, Haruka will already know what it is. And unless metal crusher is some instant-blitz move, Haruka also has the option of simply parrying it, avoiding any damage altogether.

 

[Rayfire]

And just to mention it, Cinner can assuredly break out of the Void of Despair with his Supernatural Willpower and resistance to fear manipulation. So that’s a major option for Haruka that won’t work. Cinner has plenty of options for surviving Haruka long enough to get her where he wants her and finish her off with strong moves like Metal Crush and Lightning Breaker. She has portals but Cinner’s rapid movement should let him pursue or just stop her from using it after enough times seeing it.

I definitely agree with Cinner breaking out of the void of despair, which was discussed in the previous thread, although I think suffering through an extreme version of his worst fear still could disorient him, even if only a bit.

What’s not to say that Haruka can’t do the same to Cinner’s moves? Haruka has fast movement too, as she’s heavily implied to be superior to Asuna and Shizu, who could dodge danmaku that would give touhou players nightmares (lol), and Haruka is no stranger to fast-paced combat either, so I don’t think it’d be that simple for Cinner to just intercept her given his limited range on top of that.

 

[MintyBoi1]

Gon try to keep everything as short as possible, naturally

I don’t think Haruka will just die from those that easily. Asuna, for example, has survived organ obliteration (Takign a hit for Shizu against Kedron) without any issues. Which is also why they have Type 2 Immortality. If a semi-clumsily starting out Asuna can tank that no problem and not die, I don’t think either of those will be an immediate death for Haruka.

I find it hard to believe that Cinner can do some immediate damage to haruka’s brain too, especially when he’s at a 3x AP disadvantage if I remember correctly. Even if something like metal crusher does land, it’d take a lot of them to actually do something substantial, and by then, Haruka will already know what it is. And unless metal crusher is some instant-blitz move, Haruka also has the option of simply parrying it, avoiding any damage altogether.

Asuna’s case was different than this. For her it was her chest and the organs there, but the throat is more sensitive than even stuff like the lungs since it has things like the windpipe which carries air to the brain. The AP gap is only 1.69x, so Haruka is not even twice as durable as Cinner meaning enough good hits with added momentum should do the job. Cinner can also launch buildings at her, potentially for piercing damage with enough force and compression of the chunks. As for parrying, Cinner has great air maneuverability and better prediction to catch her off guard. As long as he’s within several meters of her, he can deal big damage. Haruka could maybe adapt with prolonged exposure but Cinner has plenty of moves to go through and simpler stuff like jabs and sweeps to use.

I definitely agree with Cinner breaking out of the void of despair, which was discussed in the previous thread, although I think suffering through an extreme version of his worst fear still could disorient him, even if only a bit.

What’s not to say that Haruka can’t do the same to Cinner’s moves? Haruka has fast movement too, as she’s heavily implied to be superior to Asuna and Shizu, who could dodge danmaku that would give touhou players nightmares (lol), and Haruka is no stranger to fast-paced combat either, so I don’t think it’d be that simple for Cinner to just intercept her given his limited range on top of that.

That could happen, though given the hyper focused nature of Pure Form, he should recover quickly enough for no major harm to be done.

Haruka has fast movement but Cinner has his self-momentum to propel him faster and more often plus midair jumps to even out with Haruka’s. He reacted to high speed attacks from High-Flyer even with movements slowed down and outpaced hordes of chains trying to catch him from Fetter. It wouldn’t be simple, but he could catch her with time and strategizing. Blinding her with a building and slipping above her for a crush/crash for example should work. It just seems more likely for Cinner to beat her at close range than her Haruka to beat him at long range.

 

[Rayfire]

Asuna’s case was different than this. For her it was her chest and the organs there, but the throat is more sensitive than even stuff like the lungs since it has things like the windpipe which carries air to the brain. The AP gap is only 1.69x, so Haruka is not even twice as durable as Cinner meaning enough good hits with added momentum should do the job. Cinner can also launch buildings at her, potentially for piercing damage with enough force and compression of the chunks. As for parrying, Cinner has great air maneuverability and better prediction to catch her off guard. As long as he’s within several meters of her, he can deal big damage. Haruka could maybe adapt with prolonged exposure but Cinner has plenty of moves to go through and simpler stuff like jabs and sweeps to use.

Yeah, but even so, it’s not like it’d be the end of the world. Not only could Haruka tank the pain of that, but it’s not like she needs a constant supply of oxygen or she dies. You can hold your breath for 30 seconds right now, and you can still do normal stuff normally while that happens. Haruka would not immediately be incapped nor would it be an instant death, so she should be able to heal from that.

Haruka can simply dodge them, especially if Cinner is struggling to get in close, and can destroy said buildings before they reach her thanks to stuff like this in her arsenal:

• Explosion Manipulation & Limited Danmaku (Can create many large, Omnidirectional blasts with Dark Magic.)

Haruka is not lacking in air manoeuvrability either as I’ve mentioned earlier, so it’s not like it’s something Haruka would be completely outclassed in, nor something she could adapt to. This key isn’t even Haruka at her best, so I’m very sure she”ll have some extra skill to show off as well. I think you’re underestimating haruka’s intelligence and adaptation capabilities too. It’s not like haruka won’t be able to adapt to cinners’ moves as soon as she see’s them, or could plan ahead to try and trick cinners’ ESP.

Haruka has fast movement but Cinner has his self-momentum to propel him faster and more often plus midair jumps to even out with Haruka’s. He reacted to high speed attacks from High-Flyer even with movements slowed down and outpaced hordes of chains trying to catch him from Fetter. It wouldn’t be simple, but he could catch her with time and strategizing. Blinding her with a building and slipping above her for a crush/crash for example should work. It just seems more likely for Cinner to beat her at close range than her Haruka to beat him at long range.

I don’t think the omnidirectional blasts (Dark shockwaves I believe they were called) that Haruka can dish out from her scythe would allow that to happen. Cinner would have to get past the AoE, which will be especially numerous if Haruka is at a distance and spams them, like she did with Shizu at the very start of their fight to force her on the defensive. Both of them seem to have equal intelligence battle IQ wise (Though Cinner is gifted normally, so haruka would totally win in a chess match) so i don’t think one of them will be able to outsmart the other that easily, and that also goes for Cinner here.

 

[MintyBoi1]

Yeah, but even so, it’s not like it’d be the end of the world. Not only could Haruka tank the pain of that, but it’s not like she needs a constant supply of oxygen or she dies. You can hold your breath for 30 seconds right now, and you can still do normal stuff normally while that happens. Haruka would not immediately be incapped nor would it be an instant death, so she should be able to heal from that.

Haruka can simply dodge them, especially if Cinner is struggling to get in close, and can destroy said buildings before they reach her thanks to stuff like this in her arsenal:

• Explosion Manipulation & Limited Danmaku (Can create many large, Omnidirectional blasts with Dark Magic.)

Haruka is not lacking in air manoeuvrability either as I’ve mentioned earlier, so it’s not like it’s something Haruka would be completely outclassed in, nor something she could adapt to. This key isn’t even Haruka at her best, so I’m very sure she”ll have some extra skill to show off as well. I think you’re underestimating haruka’s intelligence and adaptation capabilities too. It’s not like haruka won’t be able to adapt to cinners’ moves as soon as she see’s them, or could plan ahead to try and trick cinners’ ESP.

I don’t think the omnidirectional blasts (Dark shockwaves I believe they were called) that Haruka can dish out from her scythe would allow that to happen. Cinner would have to get past the AoE, which will be especially numerous if Haruka is at a distance and spams them, like she did with Shizu at the very start of their fight to force her on the defensive. Both of them seem to have equal intelligence battle IQ wise (Though Cinner is gifted normally, so haruka would totally win in a chess match) so i don’t think one of them will be able to outsmart the other that easily, and that also goes for Cinner here.

I feel like there’s gotta be a certain threshold where Haruka can’t just tank and heal an attack, especially if Cinner does go for the head which he should if nothing else works. His fighting style is built off combos, so Haruka would be dealing with more than one hit each time he gets in.

I don’t think it’ll be so simple with Cinner’s self-momentum and his own acrobatic skill. He’s caught many people with great acrobatics with his attacks and has fought battles spanning cities. There’s no way he whiffs every single hit he tries against a comparable to inferior opponent. On the buildings, he could use the time she’s dealing with those to slip into a blind spot and try again with smaller projectiles like he attempted against High-Flyer or just deal melee damage. Haruka getting better stuff as of now is speculation and I think you’re overestimating her analysis by saying she’ll adapt as soon as she sees the extension when Kaint who’s a genius assassin struggled heavily and lost multiple times to Cinner. He can adapt too like how he figured out how to guard Kernel’s bullets ricocheting or used Streak’s Death Call pulling him in for an attack. On Haruka’s intelligence, she’s got decent stuff listed on her profile and the Shizu fight but not the prediction feats of Cinner or knowledge of his sensory abilities to try and counter them. He doesn’t give any telltale signs, he just sees.

What about Cinner’s Power Null? He could burn away her darkness since they’re so comparable stat wise. And with an infinite environment, Cinner has many things to give him extra speed if he can’t just blow them away with force. Going off raw BIQ feats, I feel Cinner has a good enough advantage to surely close the gap.

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

I think I do lean Cinner currently…

 

[Rayfire]

I think I do lean Cinner currently…

Will be able to make my next response later, but I’m half-rooting for Cinner as well. Not that I think he wins as of right now, but because if he wins this, we’ll get Asuna vs Cinner, which will be a lot more interesting. Haruka has had very little screentime so far in the novels, since she’s only been around for 2 chapters, but Asuna would have a lot more to give to Cinner than this suppressed version of Haruka will

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

Will be able to make my next response later, but I’m half-rooting for Cinner as well. Not that I think he wins as of right now, but because if he wins this, we’ll get Asuna vs Cinner, which will be a lot more interesting. Haruka has had very little screentime so far in the novels, since she’s only been around for 2 chapters, but Asuna would have a lot more to give to Cinner than this suppressed version of Haruka will

I think he does win, he has better feats and all based on each reply so far (I’ve read all of them all the way through) but I’ll wait for your response at least

 

[Froggytron]

As well lean Cinner, his skill, crazy Extrasensory Perception and Analytical Prediction (his highest Pure Form grants him, I fully believe its equal to Spagm's above supercomputer calculations combined with crazy move sets) and endurance (his willpower combined with regen, vitality, and stamina) allowing him to continuously surpass his limits should with time get him even through all Spagm's defensive with attack sets constantly being sent at him. Combined with the above points mentioned it gives him enormous time to adapt and close gaps in which Haruka exceeds.

 

[Javenplayz253]

As well lean Cinner, his skill, crazy Extrasensory Perception and Analytical Prediction (his highest Pure Form grants him, I fully believe its equal to Spagm's above supercomputer calculations combined with crazy move sets) and endurance (his willpower combined with regen, vitality, and stamina) allowing him to continuously surpass his limits should with time get him even through all Spagm's defensive with attack sets constantly being sent at him. Combined with the above points mentioned it gives him enormous time to adapt and close gaps in which Haruka exceeds.

Not leaning cinner
:le troll:

 

[Rayfire]

Okay, imma pull something straight out of Venefica’s book to help put this match into a wider perspective with a good ‘ol point system. This isn’t some decider though, just something that should help people with deciding. Some advantages will be worth more than others, after all

1 point will be given to the character that has the advantage in 1 category. If they are considered equal, both will get a point

AP: Haruka (1.69x AP Edge)
Speed: Both (Speed is equalised, though both can potentially adapt to get faster)
Durability: Haruka (Scaling from AP)
Lifting Strength: Haruka (Class E >> Class G)
IQ: Haruka (Is an all-around genius, whilst Cinner is gifted)
Battle IQ: Cinner (More Feats & Screentime)
Experience: Cinner (Been doing the same thing as Haruka for longer)
Agility: Cinner (More acrobatic options)
Skill: >= Cinner (More Feats, though Haruka might adapt)
Abilities: Both (Large quantities of abilities)
Hax: Haruka (Mostly on the defensive end, but also basically has a domain expansion, better regeneration, impenetrable defense moves, turning off powers, plus extremely versatile magic)
Stamina: Both (Both can fight for days on end)
Endurance: Haruka (Better feats, scaling to Asuna who shrugged off getting most of her organs obliterated)
Range: Haruka (Hundreds of Kilometres >>> Tens of meters)
Resistances: Both (Cinner can escape the void of despair, Haruka can resist the heat aura)
Less Weaknesses: Haruka (Cinner has a larger quantity of weaknesses, such as his extreme need for focus in pure form and reliance on bonded item to even fight)


Overall Scores:
Haruka: 10
Cinner: 8

Once again, not a game decider, but it does seem like Haruka has more advantages than Cinner does (Lemme know if I’ve missed anything lol)

 

[MintyBoi1]

Feel experience should be given to Cinner given he’s older, better trained, and presumably fought a greater amount of skilled opponents. IQ is also a bit debatable. Going beyond just ratings, Cinner has the ability to do complex calculations and the ability to pick up new skills extremely quickly while Haruka seems to focus mainly on manipulation, deduction, and prediction. Prediction evens out but the other two alone I don’t think put her over Cinner. But of course quality over quantity, Cinner isn’t too far behind in physical strength and has counters to Haruka’s haxier abilities to even the odds.

 

[Rayfire]

Feel experience should be given to Cinner given he’s older, better trained, and presumably fought a greater amount of skilled opponents.

What age did he start training? It says he started at 17 (or at least implied since it’s ‘initially’) and Haruka has likely been fighting for years at this point if she’s gotten as far as she has all on her own.

Cinner has the ability to do complex calculations and the ability to pick up new skills extremely quickly while Haruka seems to focus mainly on manipulation, deduction, and prediction. Prediction evens out but the other two alone I don’t think put her over Cinner.

I think the categories Haruka specialises in are more useful in a serious situation like this one, and even then, Haruka can also pick up new skills really fast as well, given that she can adapt to more unique opponents like Shizu very quickly, and that’s when she’s largely not taking it seriously, too.

Cinner isn’t too far behind in physical strength and has counters to Haruka’s haxier abilities to even the odds.

Yeah, but Haruka can do the same to the heat aura, which she should be resistant to, and she could also potentially get past cinners’ prediction abilities too thanks to RE and their roughly equal battle IQ, which Cinner has more feats for (Bro has way more screentime than Haruka) but that doesn’t mean Haruka isn’t lacking either, which is why she has genius rating for that as well.

 

[MintyBoi1]

What age did he start training? It says he started at 17 (or at least implied since it’s ‘initially’) and Haruka has likely been fighting for years at this point if she’s gotten as far as she has all on her own.

I think the categories Haruka specialises in are more useful in a serious situation like this one, and even then, Haruka can also pick up new skills really fast as well, given that she can adapt to more unique opponents like Shizu very quickly, and that’s when she’s largely not taking it seriously, too.

Yeah, but Haruka can do the same to the heat aura, which she should be resistant to, and she could also potentially get past cinners’ prediction abilities too thanks to RE and their roughly equal battle IQ, which Cinner has more feats for (Bro has way more screentime than Haruka) but that doesn’t mean Haruka isn’t lacking either, which is why she has genius rating for that as well.

7, so he has 12+ years of combat experience. Initially means at the start of the series in this case. I do remember what you said about adventurers so Haruka definitely has some good footing, but I don’t think she’d start that early.

Manipulation isn’t really helpful here and prediction is a thing Cinner also possesses. Her deduction of his fear would help but given the void is beaten, not much. Maybe generally it’s more useful, but Cinner seems to be better academically. And what new skills did she learn in the Shizu fight? Cinner has gained mastery over new abilities over the course of fights.

Like before said, there’s a difference between taking a stroke of lightning and a bombardment, so she can’t entirely counter it I think. Haruka does have good strategic ability, but she doesn’t seem to match entirely given just how varied the opponents Cinner’s been seen fighting are including Dice who could swap weapons and mimic their unique abilities including Ki ones. The Reactive Evolution just seems too vague given Haruka has literally only used it in one fight where she already had the advantage.

 

[Rayfire]

Like before said, there’s a difference between taking a stroke of lightning and a bombardment, so she can’t entirely counter it I think. Haruka does have good strategic ability, but she doesn’t seem to match entirely given just how varied the opponents Cinner’s been seen fighting are including Dice who could swap weapons and mimic their unique abilities including Ki ones. The Reactive Evolution just seems too vague given Haruka has literally only used it in one fight where she already had the advantage.

Asuna has a skill called ‘turbocharge’ which is a thunder magic skill that, well, amplifies her speed, in which she is enveloped by electricity as an added effect, meaning she can take the said heat of lighting (The heat that the heat aura scales to) no problem, and for extended periods. I believe this was brought up in the previous thread.

Current Haruka is above current Asuna, and since Haruka also technically has the capability to use thunder magic (Though she hasn’t used it in canon) she should scale above said heat. On top of that, all adventurers have a partial resistance to elemental manipulation (which includes fire) as well, so I doubt Haruka would really struggle all that much with the heat.

Well, Haruka should have been through similair varied opponents, considering that magic is basically imagination manifestation (With a couple limitations, like your output depending on your XP, you need sufficient willpower, etc) and there’s even monsters like Kedron that can use said magic too. Haruka won’t be lacking in that department either,

I know, that’s why I’m using Asuna for some of this cause of haruka’s minimal screentime (lol) Being able to adapt to and defeat someone with at least a few years of tormenting unfortunate adventurers on only 1 day of experience yourself is nothing to scoff at. That’s why I’m bringing this up for the skill thing. You could argue that Asuna has better willpower than Haruka, hence why Asuna did it so quickly, but considering that Haruka can survive on her own for years (Something considered a spectacle in Bakuhatsu, given how many dangerous things lurk around outside of safe zones like the capital) I don’t think she’s too behind in that regard, so she should be able to pull of something similair to Asuna (And Shizu eventually) vs Kedron here

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

Note that only things shown/proven for Haruka can be applied

 

[MintyBoi1]

Asuna has a skill called ‘turbocharge’ which is a thunder magic skill that, well, amplifies her speed, in which she is enveloped by electricity as an added effect, meaning she can take the said heat of lighting (The heat that the heat aura scales to) no problem, and for extended periods. I believe this was brought up in the previous thread.

Current Haruka is above current Asuna, and since Haruka also technically has the capability to use thunder magic (Though she hasn’t used it in canon) she should scale above said heat. On top of that, all adventurers have a partial resistance to elemental manipulation (which includes fire) as well, so I doubt Haruka would really struggle all that much with the heat.

Well, Haruka should have been through similair varied opponents, considering that magic is basically imagination manifestation (With a couple limitations, like your output depending on your XP, you need sufficient willpower, etc) and there’s even monsters like Kedron that can use said magic too. Haruka won’t be lacking in that department either,

I know, that’s why I’m using Asuna for some of this cause of haruka’s minimal screentime (lol) Being able to adapt to and defeat someone with at least a few years of tormenting unfortunate adventurers on only 1 day of experience yourself is nothing to scoff at. That’s why I’m bringing this up for the skill thing. You could argue that Asuna has better willpower than Haruka, hence why Asuna did it so quickly, but considering that Haruka can survive on her own for years (Something considered a spectacle in Bakuhatsu, given how many dangerous things lurk around outside of safe zones like the capital) I don’t think she’s too behind in that regard, so she should be able to pull of something similair to Asuna (And Shizu eventually) vs Kedron here

I don’t recall, but that’s good proof for her taking prolonged exposure.

It seems odd to say Haruka has seen things like Cinner given the power system and world differences. Magic is varied but I doubt people/monsters she’s seen exactly match up with someone like Dice or Captain Saw without any showings. And how advanced is the technology in Bakuhatsu, it’d be a great benefit if they have nothing like Kernel’s rifle or Vann’s hoverboard to compare to since Cinner’s seen both.

Scaling to Asuna is fair, but I don’t think that feat matches up to Cinner’s experience otherwise she could just match Naruto or Goku with a few minutes. Not that Cinner’s Goku level but there should be a very wide gap with his training and experience against dual wielders fighting since the time of Pharaohs.

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

Still leaning cinner

 

[Javenplayz253]

Still leaning cinner

Still not leaning cinner

 

[Rayfire]

It seems odd to say Haruka has seen things like Cinner given the power system and world differences. Magic is varied but I doubt people/monsters she’s seen exactly match up with someone like Dice or Captain Saw without any showings. And how advanced is the technology in Bakuhatsu, it’d be a great benefit if they have nothing like Kernel’s rifle or Vann’s hoverboard to compare to since Cinner’s seen both.

Well, I guess it’d depend on interpretation, but I don’t think Cinner has encountered anyone with the power to turn off abilities on command, or with frickin domain expansions (As javen said, which I find a very funny and somewhat accurate statement) so they’d kind of just be in the same boat.

Well, due to magic existing, you could interpret it as a massively developed version of the 1800s, where massive cities and countries aren’t out of the ordinary. Guns aren’t really a thing in Bakuhatsu though, at least, they haven’t been shown. Why use a gun when you have literal magic? Entire wars can be fought far better with that. Same goes for hoverboards, since it’s quite easy to learn something as simple as flight with Magic. Once again though, Cinner hasn’t been shown to face someone exactly like Haruka before, so I think they’d be considered equals.

Scaling to Asuna is fair, but I don’t think that feat matches up to Cinner’s experience otherwise she could just match Naruto or Goku with a few minutes. Not that Cinner’s Goku level but there should be a very wide gap with his training and experience against dual wielders fighting since the time of Pharaohs.

Why not? Unless Haruka is on the brink of giving up I don’t see her just not adapting, especially when she’s extremely skilled already. If Asuna can close a massive gap like she did with Kedron, I think Haruka could do the same against Cinner assuming he is way out of her league somehow, even if it takes longer.

 

[Rayfire]

^^^^ I have gone ahead and given Cinner the experience point if he’s been doing it for 12+ years, though.

 

[MintyBoi1]

Well, I guess it’d depend on interpretation, but I don’t think Cinner has encountered anyone with the power to turn off abilities on command, or with frickin domain expansions (As javen said, which I find a very funny and somewhat accurate statement) so they’d kind of just be in the same boat.

Well, due to magic existing, you could interpret it as a massively developed version of the 1800s, where massive cities and countries aren’t out of the ordinary. Guns aren’t really a thing in Bakuhatsu though, at least, they haven’t been shown. Why use a gun when you have literal magic? Entire wars can be fought far better with that. Same goes for hoverboards, since it’s quite easy to learn something as simple as flight with Magic. Once again though, Cinner hasn’t been shown to face someone exactly like Haruka before, so I think they’d be considered equals.

Why not? Unless Haruka is on the brink of giving up I don’t see her just not adapting, especially when she’s extremely skilled already. If Asuna can close a massive gap like she did with Kedron, I think Haruka could do the same against Cinner assuming he is way out of her league somehow, even if it takes longer.

Ok that’s true, mind manip and magic isn’t a very common thing in SDS. Though scythe wielders with broken ranged attacks are something he has seen.

Cinner has feats that blow out Kedron, seems too unbalanced to assume the RE is that good even with her own skill. So much more experience than just a few years plus taking on multiple foes with even greater experience than that should overwhelm. Maybe with enough time, but that’s another discussion figuring out the pacing of this fight with both having great stamina and endurance.

^^^^ I have gone ahead and given Cinner the experience point if he’s been doing it for 12+ years, though.

Greato Daze

 

[Rayfire]

Cinner has feats that blow out Kedron, seems too unbalanced to assume the RE is that good even with her own skill. So much more experience than just a few years plus taking on multiple foes with even greater experience than that should overwhelm. Maybe with enough time, but that’s another discussion figuring out the pacing of this fight with both having great stamina and endurance.

Well, I feel like with how many different opponents he would have trapped and faced off with in the dark forest, combined with his experience makes that a tiny bit debatable, especially since that’d still be a massive gap Asuna and Shizu could both cross fairly quickly.

In fact, Kedron terrifies most of his victims so much that they’d rather die than have to lay eyes on him, like that guy with the torn off arm Asuna and the gang encountered when they got trapped there. Without going into too much detail, Kedron is arrogant, as shown during their fight, so he would have thrown someone into the dark forest that was pretty experienced and still toys with them pretty easily. And Asuna was carrying the whole time, (Being the gurren lagann willpower mf that she is) until Shizu went half-demon mode and helped finish him off.

So, I think Kedron should be at least considerably skilled and experienced in comparison to SDS characters, even if he’s still lacking in actual feats, cause he’s dead. (Lol) And Haruka should upscale from that pretty easily. So, while Cinner should still be more skilled and experienced than this, Especially since he’s been training for a lot longer than Haruka herself, I don’t think the gap would be quite as big as implied. At least, it wouldn’t be impossible to adapt to. Especially if Asuna can cross a gap like the one she was up against that fast. (Literally, Kedron was hundreds of times more experienced in that instance)

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

I’m not so sure that scaling to Asuna is so fair in the previously mentioned aspects if Haruka hasn’t demonstrated the potential to match her feats of adaptation and/or experience.

What has Haruka actually done and demonstrated in the story? You can’t just go off of the potential of what she can do forever even though her appearances seem limited