Loid Forger vs Arthur Morgan - Spies and Cowboys

[Expectro2000xxx]

I mean, if people agree with let this die and don't do anything further with this then I'm fine, although I would still like to clarify some misconceptions I saw being said about Loid but if there is no rush from the debate I can take my time doing it.

 

[Tanin_iver]

Arthur on the other hand can target vitals as well, dispatch of hordes of armed trained men singing handily with one use of Dead Eye, is considered the best gunslinger in the west, is the quick draw champion, has absolutely clowned on the military and the polices, entire towns, etc. I'd appreciate it if you were to stop ignoring these feats.

Ok, but does well trained make them harder to target? Since u have been pushing this, surely u could show me the fruits of their training where they are much harder to target because they are trained? Also, considering Arthur has leagues better feats than shooting moving people in their vitals behind his back without even looking while also fighting other characters in H2H. He should surely be able to do more than 2 tasks considering how u are portraying him.

Secondly he has better feats than aiming behind him as close range, again the closer the range the better chance you'll hit something.

What are those better feats? Please show them.
But the opposite isn't true? The further they are the harder they are to hit and the longer it takes bullets to cover the distance so if a guy who is comparable to speed of bullets cannot dodge something from 20 meters away? There is no difference between 2m, 20m or 200m or 2km distance cos Dead-Eye?

Which is irrelevant because he'll draw his weapon first allowing him to shoot first, all while he's viewing Loid as stagnant. While in Dead-Eye he can simply place bullets where Loid will try to dodge. He has a full 15 seconds to tag Loid while he's frozen.

U do know that they start out of their line of sight right? Like if Loid gets shot, surely he can find some distance and cover in the middle of a city.

20 meters is irrelevant, they both have weapons to tag each other from a greater distance than 20 meters. Super-Sonic speed is irrelevant, Dead-Eye halts Arthur's perception of time to a halt making for a blitz. Again we've seen how this works in game in a setting where speed is equalized. With Dead-Eye Arthur would be seeing Loid in slow-mo. Arthur would literally see Loid moving around like a snail, then proceed to draw his gun first. The whole ass point of Dead-Eye is to draw your gun first, it's the entire point of Quick Draw duels.

So distance and speed becomes completely irrelevant in the RDR verse bcos u can draw first with Dead-Eye? So you are basically saying bullets don't even have to travel any distance and like spawn on the targets regardless of whether the target is 2m away or 20m or 200m or anywhere within Dead-Eye's range and is also irrespective of if the character is as fast as a normal human or MHS? This is interesting, why is it not accepted in the profiles that Dead-Eye works irrespective of the target's distance or speed?

Because Loid can't dodge shit while Arthur views his ass in slow motion, Eagle-Eye takes care of Loid hiding due to aforementioned reasons which again you've simply ignored. It takes Dead-Eye 15+ seconds to run out, which can be increased by his talismans and trinkets. Furthermore his healing items hardly take time to consume, and he'll have all the time in the world to stuff down as many items he needs

Loid is dodging bullets not Arthur's perception. It doesn't matter how Arthur sees Loid, whether he sees him as a statue or something very fast its just his perception speed and not the bullets, so irrelevant argument. So u agree items take time to consume even if its a little, should be enough to close the gap.
Also, I didn't ignore about Eagle-Eye, I didn't even argue against it's effectiveness in the first place. Like why are u even making false accusations.

It's not downplay whenever your wanking Loid to be like Batman or Yujiro.

Aren't u wanking Arthur to be like some Chuck Norris or Indian Action movie hero, who can win any gun battle regardless of the targets speed or distance because he can draw faster? And what Batman or Yujiro like feats have I or any of the others mentioned here?
Also while literally ignoring Loid's background and feats and also saying that early 20th century outlaws, soldier and police are better trained than a more modern setting where the militaries and secret service of two nations(which Loid has engaged with most of his life btw) have been engaged in an active war not too long ago and are basically in a cold war at this point in the narrative.

he's also faster than them as well which takes away from this feat further unless you assume those guns have the same AP, durability, speed and skill as Loid which is obviously bullshit.

And Arthur isn't, not even with Dead-Eye that he supposedly constantly spams, which makes his skill feat way way way worse? And wtf why would guns have such stats, what kind of incoherent and irrelevant arguments are u bringing up at this point.

Difference is that Arthur is fighting some of the biggest Western Gangs that have training and resources. Nearly everyone and their mothers were much more familiar with guns back then, as it usually meant life or death on a near daily basis. Wiping out hordes of trained men casually (Groups of Blackwater Agents, The Military, guerrilla war units in Gurama, etc.), has much better accuracy feats, copying abilities, sniping feats, has mastered weapons he's never used before such as Bows and Tomahawk's, escaping from the Law for years non stop, can nail multiple moving targets easily due to how Dead-Eye works.

Yeah yeah, these Western Gangs were wielding guns as a foetus I get it. They are so skilled and well trained that they become instantly irrelevant bcos Arthur has Dead Eye so he can blitz everyone which takes away the skill argument from both Arthur and his targets. Also, why them being skilled or trained with guns make them being any harder to target with guns. What relevancy does skill and training have with them being shot at?

Nevermind the fact that Loid has engaged with the same from an even more modern setting, modern equipment and modern training.

Did i say they were capable of dodging gunfire? No now stop strawmaning, it's literally the only argument you have here. I listed skill feats that you've been ignoring and using your same logic that Loid feat gets even worse since the goons he shot couldn't dodge bullets either.

There are, you've just been ignoring all of them.

Then what are they capable of with their training or skills, since u are bringing it up all the time. How does it help them when they are being shot at. And what are those skill feats, I have yet to see the fruits of their training. All I am seeing is a guy who can shoot at slow moving targets bcos of deadeye.

Those's goons were directly behind him, close enough to where he could just hear them. Again shooting vastly weaker, slower and vastly less skilled rando's isn't as impressive as your making it out to see. Show me Loid taking out the best gunslingers in the west, killing the most dangerous of animals, dogging the military and police on several occasions, copying abilities that gunslingers need decades to master after seeing them be used once, kill literal hordes of men, etc.

Bruh its even worse for Arthur then. Goons are literally in front of him who are in slow motion, He doesnt even have to do anything cos DeadEye makes him way faster than his opponents. This is the worst skill argument I have heard. And how will Loid take out gunslingers, when he is in a completely different setting, like what kind of goofy ass argument is that. Also, he has taken care of military police, secret service and even dangerous suicide dogs with bombs btw.

Okay cool, a random vague statement. You literally have zero grounds to claim Loid was a child Solider, you made that shit up yourself. Now start posting scans instead of making shit up.

Bruh, u don't know shit about his background then. And will u now actually post skill feats or are u just making shit up. Bcos shooting slow moving targets is not skill, cos dude spams dead-eye and is shooting randos who are also basically statues. Or his targets being skilled with guns doesn't make them any harder to target. And if the training does make them different can u show me how.
Unless u want to say all the randos are Supersonic and they still get shot at?

Also considering the arguments are basically going in circles at this point with Arthur's side saying that with Dead Eye the starting conditions, distance and speed of target becomes completely irrelevant bcos Arthur can draw his gun faster and Loid side basically saying that those conditions are relevant and Loid has advantage in every other category. So I too am thinking of stopping at this point. And will let Expectro continue from here on out, if he wishes.

I just wish LGS could post some skill feats for Arthur, but alas its just shooting at slow moving targets which he considers skill.

 

[LordGinSama]

I just wish LGS could post some skill feats for Arthur, but alas its just shooting at slow moving targets which he considers skill.

First of all, nobody is taking you seriously at this point. Your intention is clear as day, ranging from you downplaying Arthur, wanking Loid then literally ignoring the skill feats presented to you.

Ok, but does well trained make them harder to target?

Someone with extensive training is obviously going to make for a more difficult target to hit. This is a self fulfilling question my dude, if someone if we'll trained then they have the experience to deal with that situation.

Since u have been pushing this, surely u could show me the fruits of their training where they are much harder to target because they are trained?

It's literally common sense. It doesn't take rocket science to realize the difference between shooting trained soldiers and shooting some random thugs.

Also, considering Arthur has leagues better feats than shooting moving people in their vitals behind his back without even looking while also fighting other characters in H2H. He should surely be able to do more than 2 tasks considering how u are portraying him.

I've already provided the feats to which again you've either ignored or downplayed. To which I'll point out, anyone can see.

What are those better feats? Please show them.

I've posted them before, you've been ignoring them. You intentionally acting dismissive and ignorant doesn't make your argument legitimate. Address the feats that I've posted instead of falsely claiming I haven't posted any, which is dishonest as ****.

But the opposite isn't true?

Shooting targets from afar is inherently more difficult than shooting people at a close range.

The further they are the harder they are to hit.

Precisely, the further away the more difficult it is to land, and Arthur has tons of impressive sniper feats.

and the longer it takes bullets to cover the distance so if a guy who is comparable to speed of bullets cannot dodge something from 20 meters away?

Not while being targeted by bullets that travel faster than his reaction speed while Arthur's own are amped to the point where Loid is moving in slow motion, giving him the ability to shoot first and multiple times at that.

There is no difference between 2m, 20m or 200m or 2km distance cos Dead-Eye?

Did you hear me say anything about Dead-Eye being able to shoot from 200m or 2km away. This is an irrelevant point to make, and is just a pathetic attempt to strawman.

U do know that they start out of their line of sight right? Like if Loid gets shot, surely he can find some distance and cover in the middle of a city.

Fully aware, that's made irrelevant due to Eagle-Eye as pointed out above. Also why are you assuming Loid has enough speed to avoid Arthur, out dozens of meters of distance between them and run around a city while Arthur is just standing there.

So distance and speed becomes completely irrelevant in the RDR verse bcos u can draw first with Dead-Eye?

Did you head me say speed and distance are irrelevant because of Dead-Eye? Distance is irrelevant due to them having firearms that far exceed a mere 20 meters, and speed isn't something thats an advantage for Loid. Arthur is the only one here who can amp his attack speed via various rounds, and is the only one with a reaction speed amp. He'll get the drop first because he'll see what Loid's doing in slow-mo.

So you are basically saying bullets don't even have to travel any distance and like spawn on the targets regardless of whether the target is 2m away or 20m or 200m or anywhere within Dead-Eye's range and is also irrespective of if the character is as fast as a normal human or MHS?

Dude literally all of your arguments rely on strawmaning the **** out of an argument. Nobody ever said Dead-Eye has infinite speed and spawns on people, nor has anyone insinuated that. It doesn't take a genius to realize that when two characters have the same speed and one of those characters has the means to amp his reaction and attack speed that he'll have the advantage in attacking first.

This is interesting, why is it not accepted in the profiles that Dead-Eye works irrespective of the target's distance or speed?

Because you purposely made a strawman argument. Nobody ever said Arthur has Infinite Speed or whatever your rambling on. You're the one that's talking about some argument that was never made or implied.

Loid is dodging bullets not Arthur's perception.

Loid is not dodging bullets that travel faster than his movement and reaction speed, fired by someone's who's capable of amping his perception to a near halt.

It doesn't matter how Arthur sees Loid.

It absolutely does, your saying a reaction speed amp is irrelevant whenever it's used to get the drop on opponents. His reactions are amped, ergo he's vastly quicker to react.

whether he sees him as a statue or something very fast its just his perception speed and not the bullets, so irrelevant argument.

A reaction speed + attack speed amps are anything but irrelevant.

So u agree items take time to consume even if its a little, should be enough to close the gap.

First of all Loid shooting and injuring Arthur before he himself is pumped full of lead. Does Loid have a way to increase his combat speed? Does he have a way to increase his reaction speed? Does he have a way to increase his movement speed? No.

Also, I didn't ignore about Eagle-Eye, I didn't even argue against it's effectiveness in the first place. Like why are u even making false accusations.

This is ironic as **** lmfao. You haven't been addressing any of the points made, that's called ignoring text book.

Aren't u wanking Arthur to be like some Chuck Norris or Indian Action movie hero, who can win any gun battle regardless of the targets speed or distance because he can draw faster?

First of all nice Chuck Norris reference in 2024. Keep that shit in 2009, secondly I've provided feats for Arthur, of which he has plenty more than Loid. He can draw faster and shoot faster via various rounds as I've pointed out, again you've simply ignored it.

Yeah yeah, these Western Gangs were wielding guns as a foetus I get it. They are so skilled and well trained that they become instantly irrelevant bcos Arthur has Dead Eye so he can blitz everyone which takes away the skill argument from both Arthur and his targets.

Dead-Eye is a skill feat. Oh? This is interesting, so your admitting Dead-Eye blitzes his opponent but yet you claim he can't blitz Loid? Make up your mind.

Also, why them being skilled or trained with guns make them being any harder to target with guns. What relevancy does skill and training have with them being shot at?

This is redundant as ****. Being experienced in western duels or even in general fire fights gives you plenty of experience while being shot at. You learn how to remain calm while being shot at, and taught how to effectively shoot back while under gunfire. Like seriously how are you even asking that?

Nevermind the fact that Loid has engaged with the same from an even more modern setting, modern equipment and modern training.

Which is irrelevant due to Arthur's Dead-Eye, faster bullets, wider range of tools at his disposal, and the fact that Loid isn't exactly modern himself.

Then what are they capable of with their training or skills, since u are bringing it up all the time. How does it help them when they are being shot at. And what are those skill feats, I have yet to see the fruits of their training. All I am seeing is a guy who can shoot at slow moving targets bcos of deadeye.

Read above, it's simple as ****. Arthur has plenty more experience in being shot at while shooting back than Loid does. Loid isn't the type to get himself caught in trouble in the first place.


Over decades of training Gunslingers can unlock Dead-Eye, the aforementioned ability that halts the users perception of time, allows them to view vitals as clear as day, allows for enhanced vision (John and Arthur have used it while being blinded in eyes before.). And Arthur can copy that instantly after seeing it used once.
he can master hunting and using a bow instantly on the first try despite never having done it before.
Kills entire towns worth of men casually, successfully dogged the Military, Police and Blackwater Agents on multiple occasions, can hunt down the most dangerous of wild animals that not even extremely seasoned outdoorsman were capable of killing.
Learning assassination skills quickly from Native Tribes, shooting air born targets out of the sky such as multiple birds,
killed the most dangerous gunslingers in the verse that have decade's upon decades worth of experience.
escaped a war torn island in the middle of a massive war, successfully broke John out of prison while killing hordes of police.


I've posted the majority of these to which you keep ignoring.

Bruh its even worse for Arthur then.

This logic makes zero sense.

Goons are literally in front of him who are in slow motion.

Those aren't goons, those are the sheriff's of the town.

He doesnt even have to do anything cos DeadEye makes him way faster than his opponents.

Using your own logic here Dead-Eye would do the same to Loid.

This is the worst skill argument I have heard.

Then you obviously haven't read your own bullshit then.

And how will Loid take out gunslingers, when he is in a completely different setting.

Not my problem, the setting is irrelevant. He either has to showcase similar shooting skills to Morgan which he doesn't. He's a spy, not a combatant.

like what kind of goofy ass argument is that.

An argument that's about a thousand times more structured than yours.

Also, he has taken care of military police, secret service and even dangerous suicide dogs with bombs btw.

Scans then, and shooting a bomb off a dog is hardly impressive whenever Arthur can shoot wicks off the sticks of tnt.

Bruh, u don't know shit about his background then.

Enlisting in the military doesn't mean he was active in service or went to a combat zone. You got anything else other than a vague statement which doesn't go over his involvement in missiona? Yeah exactly.

And will u now actually post skill feats or are u just making shit up.

Buddy you're the one making shit up here. I've provided plenty of skill feats, many more than you have to which you've ignored as others have pointed out.

Bcos shooting slow moving targets is not skill,

Arthur is literally the same speed as them, there's multiple of them, trained gangs or military personnel, Dead-Eye being a skill feat, etc.

cos dude spams dead-eye and is shooting randos who are also basically statues.

Making Loid a statue as well using your own logic. Your just playing yourself at this point with the amount of contradiction your making.

Or his targets being skilled with guns doesn't make them any harder to target.

It absolutely does whenever they live on a daily basis in gunfights.

And if the training does make them different can u show me how.

I quite literally don't need to show you shit. Being experienced in gunfights is obviously going to make you more difficult to hit, taking cover behind objects, unlocking Dead-Eye, etc.

Unless u want to say all the randos are Supersonic and they still get shot at?

Again another strawman.

Also considering the arguments are basically going in circles at this point with Arthur's side saying that with Dead Eye the starting conditions, distance and speed of target becomes completely irrelevant bcos Arthur can draw his gun faster.

I swear to God I'm starting to think if you go 5 minutes without using a strawman fallacy you'd implode. Nobody ever said all that was made completely irrelevant, the starting distance is something where they can both attack from, the speed of the target in question is the same as Arthur who's the only one capable of amping his reaction speed and attack speed.

and Loid side basically saying that those conditions are relevant and Loid has advantage in every other category.

Not really.


Arthur is the better shoot.


Arthur is the only one who has the ability to amp his own reaction and attack speed.


Arthur is the only one who can heal.


Arthur has a vastly bigger kit.


Arthur has means of countering most of Loid's arsenal.


Arthur has the better range via High Velocity ammunition.



Arthur is the only one who can copy shit instantly.



Yeah no. Ultimately your arguments don't hold much weight, are founded on blatant strawman fallacies, being dismissive of evidence presented to you, etc. This is my last reply to you.

 

[Zenkaibattery1]

I'm just saying, grace ended a few minutes ago now, in Arthur's favour assuming a 3 vote lead counts in someone's favor (which a loid voter implied earlier), if that's not in the lead votes favor then this is inconclusive

 

[LordGinSama]

Then this can be closed now.

 

[Zenkaibattery1]

I was told off site that a 3 point lead means it's a victory for the person in the lead, granted that was not an admin, so idk

 

[Tanin_iver]

the starting distance is something where they can both attack from, the speed of the target in question is the same as Arthur who's the only one capable of amping his reaction speed and attack speed.

I have already addressed the rest of ur bullshit above anyway and ur pathetic attempts to strawman my arguments too. But could u point out where is his attack speed amped? U have even claimed that the bullets go faster so could u show me scans or evidence of this, since ur entire argument is reliant on it.

Buddy you're the one making shit up here. I've provided plenty of skill feats, many more than you have to which you've ignored as others have pointed out.

Where are the scans?U keep claiming it so could u link where u have shown those scans? For the last ******* time where da **** are the scans of Arthur shooting anything that isn't just Dead Eye's enhanced perception manip, which is basically akin to shooting stationary targets.

This is interesting, so your admitting Dead-Eye blitzes his opponent but yet you claim he can't blitz Loid? Make up your mind.

Trying to strawman me again huh. I am saying it for the sake of ur argument that Dead-Eye makes Arthur fast enough to blitz everyone, then there is no skill in shooting slow moving targets for Arthur either considering u used the exact same argument that Loid is faster than randos to dismiss his feats while not providing anything even close to that level. The sheer hypocrisy.

Nobody ever said all that was made completely irrelevant

20 meters is irrelevant, they both have weapons to tag each other from a greater distance than 20 meters. Super-Sonic speed is irrelevant, Dead-Eye halts Arthur's perception of time to a halt making for a blitz. Again we've seen how this works in game in a setting where speed is equalized. With Dead-Eye Arthur would be seeing Loid in slow-mo. Arthur would literally see Loid moving around like a snail, then proceed to draw his gun first. The whole ass point of Dead-Eye is to draw your gun first, it's the entire point of Quick Draw duels.

For once can u stop lying please.
Let's say for the sake of ur argument that Loid is baseline Speed of Sound and Arthur's Bullets are like a 1000m/s or about 3 times as fast as Loid. By the time the bullets cover 20 metres, Loid can cover over 6m, which is enough distance to find cover, also considering the fact that they start outside the line of sight. Do u see the problem. Ofc you don't. U are incapable of basic Math so no point in arguing ig.

 

[Phoenks]

3 vote lead is correct.

Versus Thread Rules

The VS Battles Wiki is mainly a site that attempts to index the statistics of characters across many different fictional franchises. However, as the site name implies, we also allow our members to pit fictional characters against each other in hypothetical matchups for entertainment purposes...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Zenkaibattery1]

3 vote lead is correct.

Versus Thread Rules

The VS Battles Wiki is mainly a site that attempts to index the statistics of characters across many different fictional franchises. However, as the site name implies, we also allow our members to pit fictional characters against each other in hypothetical matchups for entertainment purposes...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Then this can be added to their victories and losses respectively and the thread can be closed then. Do I need permission to add it?

 

[LordGinSama]

I have already addressed the rest of ur bullshit above.

No you literally haven't, all you've done is ignore the aforementioned feats. At no point did you address them outside of blatant ignore and strawmaning.

anyway and ur pathetic attempts to strawman my arguments too.

It's really cute that your trying to turn this around while formatting responses with what I said to you first.

But could u point out where is his attack speed amped?

On his page under his speed. Which I've posted here, again you just ignored it.

U have even claimed that the bullets go faster so could u show me scans or evidence of this, since ur entire argument is reliant on it.

It's on his profile how's about you read it.

Where are the scans?U keep claiming it so could u link where u have shown those scans?

You can find the scans very easy on YouTube and I've linked several.

For the last ******* time where da **** are the scans of Arthur shooting anything that isn't just Dead Eye's enhanced perception manip, which is basically akin to shooting stationary targets.

Dead-Eye is a skill based ability, along with the rest of the feats which you continue to deny not having ignored which is a blatant lie.

Trying to strawman me again huh.

Man aren't you getting desperate. Literally resorting to stealing my arguments at this point, I never strawmaned you. You're the one out here saying users have implied Arthur having infinite speed.

I am saying it for the sake of ur argument that Dead-Eye makes Arthur fast enough to blitz everyone.

Yeah that sounds like bullshit.

then there is no skill in shooting slow moving targets for Arthur either considering u used the exact same argument that Loid is faster than randos to dismiss his feats while not providing anything even close to that level.

Difference is that Loid hasn't unlocked a state of mind obtained through sheer skill. Loid doesnt have half the feats that Arthur does when it comes to getting into firefights.

The sheer hypocrisy.

You don't even know the meaning of that term unfortunately for you.

For once can u stop lying please.

Take your own advice. Nobody is lying expect for you, I've provided links to feats, elaboration on skill, counters and such to which you've ignored blatantly so.

Let's say for the sake of ur argument that Loid is baseline Speed of Sound and Arthur's Bullets are like a 1000m/s or about 3 times as fast as Loid.

Show me Loid reacting to something 3x his own speed while his opponent is viewing him in slow motion with explosive ammo.

By the time the bullets cover 20 metres, Loid can cover over 6m.

And before then Morgan can place several shots around Loid and where he'll move before Loid can successfully pull this off. This which whole argument intentionally neglects Arthur's own speed amps.

which is enough distance to find cover.

Read above, not whenever something is 3x faster than you, being shot at with a man who's reaction speed is many times above your own all while firing explosive which cover a chunk of distance.

also considering the fact that they start outside the line of sight. Do u see the problem.

Not out of eye-sight it's just shit in the way of them. Arthur can see past them with Dead-Eye, and Loid still needs to aim himself. With Dead-Eye once Loid goes to peak around to shoot, Arthur will Dead-Eye activated and shoot before Loid can move much distance. He's the only one with accepted speed amps in his profile which you clearly haven't read.

Ofc you don't. U are incapable of basic Math so no point in arguing ig.

Ironic coming from the guy who's incapable of using basic grammar. And for the record I can guarantee that I'm much better at math than you, I used to calculate shit myself here so yeah stop riding me and trying to reverse shit here.

 

[LordGinSama]

Anyway you can stop replying to my shit now. I have no interest in debating someone who can't form an argument outside of blatant lies, negligence of reading the profile, strawmaning, insults and pathetic attempts at reversing the obvious fallacies they've committed.

 

[LordGinSama]

Then this can be added to their victories and losses respectively and the thread can be closed then. Do I need permission to add it?

From what I recall no unless the profiles are locked. But yeah this can be closed, if anyone has a problem they can request for it to be removed. No point in going back and forth at this point considering the immaturity of the majority of comments from Tanin.

 

[ByAsura]

Was asked to close this.