Loid Forger vs Arthur Morgan - Spies and Cowboys

[LordGinSama]

Nah there's just not much to be said since anyone who cares to actually read what anyone has said before from the replies I bumled clearly see the man is spitting straight bs.

You not agreeing to something doesn't make it BS. I can easily say the same thing about your own arguments, but I'd rather counter them instead.

Geez I wonder how he got Accelerated development and photographic memory, or how he instantly learned sumo wrestling at the professional level.

Loid doesn't have power Mimicry on his profile.

Guess what their attack speed is supersonic and they're both equalized to supersonic and I easily explained it to ya as a CGM don't fall behind now, this one is simple.

Attack speed isn't equalized here unless stated otherwise. Anyway moot point since Dead-Eye is accepted as a speed amp so make a CRT or keep quite.

Eh Loid outstats and still the same speed problem persist at supersonic speeds they can both get away from standard shotgun shells at point blank range or dynamite before it blows
Baken literally has sent several scans of loid sensing others presence but okay

Sensing the presence of others isn't supernatural. That could be done via enhanced senses, which is reflected on Loid's profile.

 

[Dalesean027]

You not agreeing to something doesn't make it BS. I can easily say the same thing about your own arguments, but I'd rather counter them instead.

Nothing about me not agreeing to anything, I mean you keep blatantly affirming what I've said at specifc points in said clips and then are literally turning around and saying nothing is being proven. Which is definitely bs, I explained this same thing on page 2 and you're still saying the same thing and sending clips that literally affirm what I said but argue against it.

Loid doesn't have power Mimicry on his profile.

Nope but its a skill feat nonetheless doesn't need to be power mimicry

Attack speed isn't equalized here unless stated otherwise. Anyway moot point since Dead-Eye is accepted as a speed amp so make a CRT or keep quite.

Great but speed amp doesn't exactly change attack speed with the weapon so my point still stands

Sensing the presence of others isn't supernatural. That could be done via enhanced senses, which is reflected on Loid's profile.

Fair

 

[LordGinSama]

Nothing about me not agreeing to anything, I mean you keep blatantly affirming what I've said at specifc points in said clips and then are literally turning around and saying nothing is being proven.

Yeah nothing is proven here, you assumed i said Arthur has homing attacks. I never said that, i said that it's an auto target that highlights where he needs to aim by marking those areas. Once he fires off and goes out of Dead-Eye those shots are made in rapid succession. Aiming is hardly relevant whenever you have marks that tell you where you need to shoot in what is essentially a time slow.

Which is definitely bs, I explained this same thing on page 2 and you're still saying the same thing and sending clips that literally affirm what I said but argue against it.

Read above, that's not what I'm saying. I never said that Arthur has homing attacks just that he has similar attacks especially with Dead-Eye and certain weapons. You can literally fail to hit the target yet still hit them as seen in this video.

Nope but its a skill feat nonetheless doesn't need to be power mimicry.

It absolutely does need to be power mimicry to say Loid can replicate the same thing. Loid has no feats of copying something like Dead Eye instantly.

Great but speed amp doesn't exactly change attack speed with the weapon so my point still stands.

Hardly a meaningful point given that it slows down Arthur's perception of time to a halt so Loid wouldn't be able to dodge attacks while in Dead-Eye as Arthur can simply place bullets where Loid is gonna try to dodge. Unlike Loid Arthur's Analytical Prediction also slows down his perception of time, increases his speed and has the added benefit of including retrocogniton.

 

[Dalesean027]

Yeah nothing is proven here, you assumed i said Arthur has homing attacks. I never said that, i said that it's an auto target that highlights where he needs to aim by marking those areas. Once he fires off and goes out of Dead-Eye those shots are made in rapid succession. Aiming is hardly relevant whenever you have marks that tell you where you need to shoot in what is essentially a time slow.
Read above, that's not what I'm saying. I never said that Arthur has homing attacks just that he has similar attacks especially with Dead-Eye and certain weapons. You can literally fail to hit the target yet still hit them as seen in this video.

Think you're grossly misunderstanding, I'm not arguing that you're saying he has homing attack here pretty sure I've said this many times now so I'll quote it agai

Not at all how this works, arthur morgan enhancing his perception doesn't suddenly negate Loid's analytical prediction you have literally 0 grounds to make that claim and even then as I said that's simply not how that works at all especially not when you consider the fact that when using deadeye he is still focusing on where he wants to shoot before he actually does so, worst even if he is already holding his gun out since he aims it wherever he's focusing before he shoots. Alls to say this is stuff loid can take full advantage of given the scans baken has provided and there's nothing really Arthur morgan can do here realistically.

Point is loid has pretty dang good analytical prediction, Arthur needing to focus his aim wherever he marks means Loid will have a read to capitalize on that its as simple as that. Every clip sent has affirmed that point again and again that Arthur will aim at the spots he is marking with his deadeye, that's literally just a given its unavoidable here which is why Loid can act on it.

Hardly a meaningful point given that it slows down Arthur's perception of time to a halt so Loid wouldn't be able to dodge attacks while in Dead-Eye as Arthur can simply place bullets where Loid is gonna try to dodge. Unlike Loid Arthur's Analytical Prediction also slows down his perception of time, increases his speed and has the added benefit of including retrocogniton.

I don't think you're understanding here, and I'm not arguing against this when in deadeye it absolutely will boost Arthur's perception but seeing as both are supersonic in this debate and the weapons have a set speed which is something neither one of us can deny that means even with this Loid can absolutely still easily react to them and percieve them at supersonic speeds so it just becomes pointless if loid is still fast enough to react to the bullets.


Also secondly at least according to his profile his retrocogniton doesn't work in a way that will let him just read Loid's next moves at least not in the way you're saying here, a clip for evidence would be different but still as I said even with express ammunition loid can still react enough to move 1m in the time it takes for it to move 2 so he should still be able to change course or do decent dodges with his upper body at these speeds since they're both moving at supersonic speeds

 

[Tanin_iver]

He kicked a few of them and then shot two nobodies behind him. That pales in comparison to dogging the military and police on several occasions, copying Dead-Eye immediately, out skilling the most skill gunglingers of the verse and is the best quick drawer in the video games. Arthur has much better and many more gun feats than Loid, you can look up the literal hours worth of actual feats he has in comparison to Loid's two, one of which is absolutely shit. Shooting two rando's isn't impressive especially whenever it was notes as sloppy.

Sigh, just trying to grasp at straws.
Loid is simultaneously engaging in CQC while shooting at target's vital points behind his back without even looking at them and that level of skill is considered sloppy for Loid by Frakie. Mind u Loid was in a hurry to attend a party with Yor which was the cos of his sloppiness. Also what does them being randos affect his skill? Like does Arthur shoot people behind his back who can casually dodge bullets from point blank range, if not then them being randos doesn't make Loid's feat any less impressive. Also Loid too has feats of engaging with Military and various secret service and spy organization members as well as well trained criminals.
Are u able to actually comprehend the feat now? Or is it still going over your head? This feat basically means Loid can simultaneously dodge gunfire from Arthur(bcos of distance and supersonic speed) and shoot back at him without looking and avoid a direct confrontation until Arthur's Dead Eye runs out after which point its completely over for Arthur.

U acting like Arthur is some Dovahkin like character that can simultaneously use all his best attacks instantly regardless of the distance between them and wanking Dead Eye as if the attacks just spawn on the target.

Dude u still havent provided any counter for the supersonic speeds, the distance between them, and the time limit for Dead Eye

 

[LordGinSama]

Not at all how this works, arthur morgan enhancing his perception doesn't suddenly negate Loid's analytical prediction you have literally 0 grounds to make that claim.

Aside from the fact that Arthur reaction speed would be vastly above Loid's. Arthur would be viewing Loid as nigh stagnant, and has his own form of Analytical Prediction. Furthermore loid's never faced anything like Dead-Eye, so similar to your argument you have zero grounds to make the claim that Loid can use his Analytical Prediction against something he's never encountered before.

Loid's Analytical Prediction isn't nearly as impressive as your making it sound. First of all even with his Analytical Prediction he still couldn't actually avoid the sniper shot at first hence the bullet proof vest. He could only predict the Sniper once he began getting overconfident.

Arthur isn't the type to be overconfident so there's nothing for Loid to pick up on, he isn't Micah he isn't a confident loud mouth. He's a humble gunslinger, and Loid would have a difficult time getting the timing right considering Dead-Eye halts his perception of time while increasing his speed.


Arthur also doesn't give off predictable finger movements, either as he's capable of doing complex gun tricks which require very fine motor skills, furthermore I don't think you can compare Arthur's skill to that of a tennis player.

and even then as I said that's simply not how that works at all especially not when you consider the fact that when using deadeye he is still focusing on where he wants to shoot.

He isn't focusing on what he wants to shoot, Dead-Eye takes care of that by exposing all the vital spots. From there it's just a matter of aiming and pulling the trigger, all the while Arthur views Loid as stagnant and increases his speed.

before he actually does so, worst even if he is already holding his gun out since he aims it wherever he's focusing before he shoots.

Read above.

Alls to say this is stuff loid can take full advantage of given the scans baken has provided and there's nothing really Arthur morgan can do here realistically.

I've seen what Baken has posted, most of which are espionage feats. None of them reflect shooting skills on Arthur's level, and Dead-Eye would make it very difficult for Loid to do anything due to Arthur's speed increasing dramatically to the point where he views Loid as if he were nearly frozen. With that he'd be able to pull the trigger faster, Arthur being the same dude who can quick draw people all day and night that are as fast as he is.

Arthur can heal, Loid cannot. Arthur has means of tracking Loid, making Loid's stealth moot. Arthur can react faster and amp his speed, while also restoring his Dead-Eye and Eagle Eye via items. Arthur has TNT and fire cocktails for battlefield control, Loid does not. Arthur has the objective better gunslinging feats, he has like over 40 hours worth of actual impressive gunslinging feats in comparison to Loid's two both of which lesser Rdr characters can replicate, much less Arthur who's considered to be the best gunslinger in the west. Arthur has been using guns since childhood, Loid has not. Loid is not a combatant primarily, he is a spy. He isn't an assassin. Arthur on the other hand has vastly more experience fighting than Loid.

I don't think you're understanding here.

No i understand i just don't agree with your interpretation.

and I'm not arguing against this when in deadeye it absolutely will boost Arthur's perception but seeing as both are supersonic in this debate and the weapons have a set speed which is something neither one of us can deny that means even with this Loid can absolutely still easily react to them and percieve them at supersonic speeds so it just becomes pointless if loid is still fast enough to react to the bullets.

Issue with that is Arthur's reactions would be dramatically above Loid's. We've seen what it looks like whenever Arthur uses Dead-Eye against people with similar reactions speeds go his base reaction speed, he's able to react much quicker allowing him to draw his weapon before his opponent does. Loid also doesn't have a way to counter Arthur simply shooting wherever Loid tries to dodge, for a total of 15 seconds Loid will be seen as frozen so Arthur has all the time in the world to pump him full of lead in that time frame before Loid can retaliate.


Also according to Arthur's profile his Retrocogniton gives him knowledge on what's about to happen immediately.


, Enhanced Senses, Extrasensory Perception, Analytical Prediction, Retrocognition and Information Analysis (via Eagle Eye, can pinpoint objects, locations of interest and uncover trails gone cold. By analyzing his surroundings, he can tell if something is wrong or if something dangerous is about to happen well before it takes place, allowing him to prepare accordingly. Can also detect whether an animal is injured or not

 

[LordGinSama]

Sigh, just trying to grasp at straws.

Ditto.

Loid is simultaneously engaging in CQC while shooting at target's vital points behind his back without even looking at them.

Yes against a bunch of nobodies making noise behind him with guns. They obviously arent well trained, theyre just goons with guns. They're at a close enough range where head shotting them would be easy. It's a gun, the closer the target the easier it is to hit them. Arthur on the other hand can target vitals as well, dispatch of hordes of armed trained men singing handily with one use of Dead Eye, is considered the best gunslinger in the west, is the quick draw champion, has absolutely clowned on the military and the polices, entire towns, etc. I'd appreciate it if you were to stop ignoring these feats.

and that level of skill is considered sloppy for Loid by Frakie.

Because it is inherently sloppy work.

Mind u Loid was in a hurry to attend a party with Yor which was the cos of his sloppiness.

Cool doesn't change much or make it better than Arthur's feats who has vastly more of.

Also what does them being randos affect his skill?

What....? That's a self fulfilling question. Theyre random goons, they aren't shown to be impressive. Theres nothing to imply they've been trained extensively, making the feat not as impressive as your twisting it out to be.

Like does Arthur shoot people behind his back who can casually dodge bullets from point blank range

First of all those goons were not dodging bullets. Secondly he has better feats than aiming behind him as close range, again the closer the range the better chance you'll hit something. This is like me saying a Navy Seal killing a crippled disabled lady in a wheel chair armed with a nerf gun is impressive.

if not then them being randos doesn't make Loid's feat any less impressive.

It absolutely does.

Also Loid too has feats of engaging with Military and various secret service and spy organization members as well as well trained criminals.

Well trained criminals my ass, and he's never engaged in combat with the military. He's entire thing is espionage and not being caught, not going around rambo style slaughtering Navy Seals lmfao.

Are u able to actually comprehend the feat now?

I've been able to comprehend the feat since i saw it, again it's not remotely as impressive as your making it seem.

Or is it still going over your head?

The only thing going over anyone's head is the fact that you seem to think this is a meaningful skill feat. They're canon fodder with no names, nor are they implied to have training.

This feat basically means Loid can simultaneously dodge gunfire from Arthur(bcos of distance and supersonic speed)

Not while Dead-Eye is active. Again he's never encountered any ability like that before and with the ability Arthur would be able to draw his gun faster than Loid. Speed being equalized is irrelevant due to Arthur's speed being increased to the point where he can draw his gun faster than hordes of men with equal speed.

and shoot back at him without looking and avoid a direct confrontation until Arthur's Dead Eye runs out after which point its completely over for Arthur.

If it runs out Arthur can refill it. Stop ignoring these arguments.

U acting like Arthur is some Dovahkin like character that can simultaneously use all his best attacks instantly regardless of the distance between them and wanking Dead Eye as if the attacks just spawn on the target.

Ironic considering your acting like Loid is Agent 47. They're his best weapons, they're the ones he's most likely to use and it's in character for him to use Eagle-Eye and Dead-Eye. Once again your being ignorant for the sake of dismissal. Much like Loid he'll be using his optimal methods. His battle strategy literally involves the use of Eagle-Eye and Dead-Eye. That's how he tracks shit he can't see, and how he got his quick draw championship.

Dude u still havent provided any counter for the supersonic speeds, the distance between them, and the time limit for Dead Eye

I've literally countered all of them. Speed is irrelevant due to Arthur's being able to draw faster with Dead-Eye, they both have guns so the distance is irrelevant, and Arthur can use it for 15 seconds non stop then restore it via items.

 

[Zenkaibattery1]

The arguments for Loid are repeatadly just ignoring his own weaknesses, times he's failed and been caught off guard throughout the series where he would have died if not for Anya and noted to be sloppy and the manga panel Gin posted earlier in a battle against many armed people lol, where Arthur lowkey just carries or times where he could just do it himself. Also, I don't see any actual argument against Arthur's Dead Eye now beyond

"lol time limit" ok? How is that relevant to perceptive time being slowed down that lasts long enough for Arthur to get the job done? At it's max potential Arthur can spam Dead Eye. "Lol time limit" is not an argument here.

Also, I just played the game a few hours ago. Eagle Eye also slows down time similar to Dead Eye, and in fact lasts longer and even slows down people and animals alike, even people comparable to Arthur like Javier and especially Charles who he learned Eagle Eye from, giving Arthur more time (which he really doesnt need) to do what needs to be done. it can also just spot tiny objects and higlight them, taking away any traps Loid might place. It also does in fact highlight entire people (In the first stealth mission where you rob a house and you activate Eagle Eye, it highlights the people in the house). This is just another instance of Arthur being able to shut down what Loid is good at.

All the arguments for Loid are just ignoring undoubtedly the most powerful ability between the two, Dead Eye, and also downplaying Arthur's stealth and IQ to being so far below Loid's that Arthur has negative IQ or something, when he has his own stealth feats infiltrating massive camps/bases even when in places that would make noise, and even when you would think he would be caught with his constant coughing and TB killing him. I agree Loid has better stealth, but it is not blowing Arthur's out of the water by any means that it would shift it to Loid's favour somehow. Idk why Arthur is being painted as some idiot here. Also Gin is the one cooking here fr

dale's messages are getting shorter and shorter each time that means gin is winning this debate according to my calculations

Also this made me laugh

 

[LordGinSama]

Fr Arthur and the Gang escaped a prison on a different island lmfao. Before that they rolled up on a military boat or something to steal it before things went haywire.

 

[LordGinSama]

Yeah this mission was some serious shit.

 

[LordGinSama]

Furthermore all the feats Baken mentioned had Loid with knowledge beforehand. He's given intell by some of the best sources then goes in a a proper plan, be it masking his identity, planting traps, etc. It's also funny how his profiled states that he avoids direct confrontation, so obviously he isn't as experienced in having men shooting him in a war type setting like Arthur who'd born into it.


Also according to Loid's standard equipment doesn't mention him having traps or anything to change his identity. Those are with prep, which he doesn't have here.

 

[Phoenks]

Going to have to give the W to Arthur Morgan based on what I'm seeing here.

 

[Phoenks]

By the way, what exactly does Loid do against bullets that blitz his combat speed? He doesn't have higher reactions or perception listed on the page so I can only assume he can't do anything against getting shot in the head. Not to mention Arthur's slow motion amp, that's overkill.

And furthermore, Loid isn't even much of a fighter, he's more of an observer and planner. He focuses more on stealthily planning around opponents rather than facing them head on. He isn't an assassin like his "wife," he's a spy. His combative skill is being grossly overhyped here. Like seriously his analytical prediction is just him anticipating things based on the most general shit ever, like bodily movements, even skilled IRL people could do that. I don't even think he should have the ability!

 

[Zenkaibattery1]

Furthermore all the feats Baken mentioned had Loid with knowledge beforehand. He's given intell by some of the best sources then goes in a a proper plan, be it masking his identity, planting traps, etc. It's also funny how his profiled states that he avoids direct confrontation, so obviously he isn't as experienced in having men shooting him in a war type setting like Arthur who'd born into it.


Also according to Loid's standard equipment doesn't mention him having traps or anything to change his identity. Those are with prep, which he doesn't have here.

Yeah, and even if he did Eagle Eye would just find them anyway. I should have checked when I played earlier but does Eagle Eye have a time limit? Unless he dies I don't recall it stopping, if anything it lasts a significantly longer time than dead eye.

Also uh no one replied to the grace thing. If it started at the 10-7 vote count then I believe there's only 24 hours or so left

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I really don’t see any reliable wincon here. His traps don’t work, he’s not a better shot, no way around Deadeye, Arthur just nukes his head with a shotgun.

 

[Phoenks]

I really don’t see any reliable wincon here. His traps don’t work, he’s not a better shot, no way around Deadeye, Arthur just nukes his head with a shotgun.

To be honest, yeah, I also don't see the win-con. Loid gets blitzed and probably killed by the first shot Arthur takes.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Which mean this debate is meaningless on first place lmao

Wish Showa Riders on their human form are still on 9-B, i want to see both of Hongo and Ichimonji maintain their fight against Arthur

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

@Zenkaibattery1 @LordGinSama Might be sound weird but do you guys finally dislike SxF because of this match?

 

[Phoenks]

@Zenkaibattery1 @LordGinSama Might be sound weird but do you guys finally dislike SxF because of this match?

You didn't ask me, but I don't hate Spy Family. I think it's alright and pretty enjoyable to watch if you just want something equivalent to a Saturday-morning cartoon. It's wholesome and nice, but I don't think it is as good as a story as some other things considering its overall simplicity and shallowness. It's pretty overrated.

 

[Zenkaibattery1]

@Zenkaibattery1 @LordGinSama Might be sound weird but do you guys finally dislike SxF because of this match?

No, it's still one of my favourite anime/Mangas as of recently lol (keyword: recently)

 

[Tanin_iver]

Speed is irrelevant due to Arthur's being able to draw faster with Dead-Eye, they both have guns so the distance is irrelevant, and Arthur can use it for 15 seconds non stop then restore it via items.

Bruh, still waiting for a counter but alas, none of u managed to come up with any. No matter how fast Arthur draws his guns, the speed of bullets will remain unchanged. So I really don't see how Loid isn't just dodging the projectiles and keeping his distance until deadeye runs out and then kills Arthur with just about anything. Even if Arthur were to use vials to restore it, that takes time, time that can be utilised by Loid.

Well trained criminals my ass, and he's never engaged in combat with the military. He's entire thing is espionage and not being caught, not going around rambo style slaughtering Navy Seals lmfao.

so obviously he isn't as experienced in having men shooting him in a war type setting like Arthur who'd born into it.

Dude literally was a soldier before he became a spy, and implied to have enlisted before he even became an adult. He's a war orphan ffs.

Loid gets blitzed and probably killed by the first shot Arthur takes.

20 meters, supersonic speed, as starting conditions. Dead Eye is completely irrelevant cos bullets wont get faster and the distance is enough to dodge them.

All the arguments for Loid are just ignoring undoubtedly the most powerful ability between the two, Dead Eye, and also downplaying Arthur's stealth and IQ to being so far below Loid's that Arthur has negative IQ or something, when he has his own stealth feats infiltrating massive camps/bases even when in places that would make noise, and even when you would think he would be caught with his constant coughing and TB killing him.

And all the arguments for Arthur is basically just Dead Eye as if its like some sort of insta win button that spawns the attack on the target regardless of distance range or obstacle or starting conditions.
I don't think anyone has downplayed Arthur's stealth feats or Eagle Eye. Just that Loid has arguably better stealth and infiltration feats.
And the way u r dowplaying Loid is even funnier.

What....? That's a self fulfilling question. Theyre random goons, they aren't shown to be impressive. Theres nothing to imply they've been trained extensively, making the feat not as impressive as your twisting it out to be.

I think either u misunderstood me or u are purposely trying to misinterpret what I meant to say. What I mean is basically even if Loid is shooting random moving targets in their vital points behind his back without even looking in the midst of CQC in front, how is that not a skill feat? Like u are trying to argue as if Arthur is shooting at guys who are casually dodging bullets or something and not randos themselves. Does training in the early 20th century made guys capable of dodging gunfire? Show me a feat where Arthur can shoot at moving targets vital points behind his back without even looking or maybe there are feats beter than this I guess cos early 20th century training is just different Ig

 

[Dalesean027]

By the way, what exactly does Loid do against bullets that blitz his combat speed? He doesn't have higher reactions or perception listed on the page so I can only assume he can't do anything against getting shot in the head. Not to mention Arthur's slow motion amp, that's overkill.

And furthermore, Loid isn't even much of a fighter, he's more of an observer and planner. He focuses more on stealthily planning around opponents rather than facing them head on. He isn't an assassin like his "wife," he's a spy. His combative skill is being grossly overhyped here. Like seriously his analytical prediction is just him anticipating things based on the most general shit ever, like bodily movements, even skilled IRL people could do that. I don't even think he should have the ability!

His combat speed is supersonic in this fight...the bullets are subsonic+ to supersonic ranging from 250m/s to 750m/s with his fastest rifle

The speed difference legitimately ain't enough to blitz anything regardless if arthur from his own perspective views loid as frozen and can unload shots loid ain't actually frozen and is very well fast enough to dodge supersonic bullets as Arthur's a perception amp doesn't change how fast the other guy is or how fast the bullets go, both are at a set speed in this match.

Aside from the fact that Arthur reaction speed would be vastly above Loid's. Arthur would be viewing Loid as nigh stagnant, and has his own form of Analytical Prediction. Furthermore loid's never faced anything like Dead-Eye, so similar to your argument you have zero grounds to make the claim that Loid can use his Analytical Prediction against something he's never encountered before.

Buddy it doesn't matter the point still stands when using deadeye the man still aims at where he plans to shoot before he does it, i genuinely am not seeing how you're arguing against something that's just been shown to be objective here.

Arthur also doesn't give off predictable finger movements, either as he's capable of doing complex gun tricks which require very fine motor skills, furthermore I don't think you can compare Arthur's skill to that of a tennis player.

Like every video sent literally shows the same thing, I get what you're saying but functionally dude always aims the exact same way in practice with deadeye pointing his gun wherever pretty straightforwardly at that

He isn't focusing on what he wants to shoot, Dead-Eye takes care of that by exposing all the vital spots. From there it's just a matter of aiming and pulling the trigger, all the while Arthur views Loid as stagnant and increases his speed.

Read above, also deadeye isn't like some third person influence the man still aims his gun where he is going to shoot prior to doing so he just blatantly does in every instance, so him aiming to mark where he plans to shoot beforehand vitals or not is an action prior to him shooting Loid can act on, mind you Loid isn't being slowed down here only Arthur's own perception of loid. The bullets aren't being speed up here aside from the one that reaches 750m/s however at supersonic speeds thats negligible and most rounds are outright outsped at the speed this fight is at or they're not significantly faster to the point they still are irrelevant even at point blank range, moreso than his fastest rounds his best bet would be his explosive shotgun but even that kinda goes out the window with the semi auto shotgun since it has tighter grouping and is more precise with less spread so if he wants aoe then it still will call for a slower gun since deadeye doesn't really negate the guns fire rate either.


Really all else aside my point is just saying it comes down a speed blitz GGs ain't accurate at all, so any revolver shots are kinda a non factor, shotguns and the express ammo are a maybe as at even in 2m range they can still be completely avoided at the speeds this fight is at

 

[LordGinSama]

Bruh, still waiting for a counter but alas

Already have, you're the one who's literally ignoring shit here pal.

none of u managed to come up with any.

Blatant lies considering you've been dodging most of the arguments while sounding like a damn broken record.

No matter how fast Arthur draws his guns, the speed of bullets will remain unchanged.

Which is irrelevant because he'll draw his weapon first allowing him to shoot first, all while he's viewing Loid as stagnant. While in Dead-Eye he can simply place bullets where Loid will try to dodge. He has a full 15 seconds to tag Loid while he's frozen.

So I really don't see how Loid isn't just dodging the projectiles and keeping his distance until deadeye runs out and then kills Arthur with just about anything. Even if Arthur were to use vials to restore it, that takes time, time that can be utilised by Loid.

Because Loid can't dodge shit while Arthur views his ass in slow motion, Eagle-Eye takes care of Loid hiding due to aforementioned reasons which again you've simply ignored. It takes Dead-Eye 15+ seconds to run out, which can be increased by his talismans and trinkets. Furthermore his healing items hardly take time to consume, and he'll have all the time in the world to stuff down as many items he needs.

Dude literally was a soldier before he became a spy, and implied to have enlisted before he even became an adult. He's a war orphan ffs.

Okay cool, a random vague statement. You literally have zero grounds to claim Loid was a child Solider, you made that shit up yourself. Now start posting scans instead of making shit up.

20 meters, supersonic speed, as starting conditions. Dead Eye is completely irrelevant cos bullets wont get faster and the distance is enough to dodge them.

20 meters is irrelevant, they both have weapons to tag each other from a greater distance than 20 meters. Super-Sonic speed is irrelevant, Dead-Eye halts Arthur's perception of time to a halt making for a blitz. Again we've seen how this works in game in a setting where speed is equalized. With Dead-Eye Arthur would be seeing Loid in slow-mo. Arthur would literally see Loid moving around like a snail, then proceed to draw his gun first. The whole ass point of Dead-Eye is to draw your gun first, it's the entire point of Quick Draw duels.

And all the arguments for Arthur is basically just Dead Eye as if its like some sort of insta win button that spawns the attack on the target regardless of distance range or obstacle or starting conditions.

Nobody said his attacks spawn on Loid, but it would be difficult for Loid to dodge them considering the amount of time Arthur has to shoot while in Dead-Eye. He has a entire 15 seconds to pump Loid full of lead while Loid himself is moving like a slug like Arthur's point of view.

I don't think anyone has downplayed Arthur's stealth feats or Eagle Eye.

You yourself are while simultaneously ignoring whole ass arguments.

Just that Loid has arguably better stealth and infiltration feats.

Already agreed there but alas Arthur has counters and experience against this.

And the way u r dowplaying Loid is even funnier.

It's not downplay whenever your wanking Loid to be like Batman or Yujiro.

I think either u misunderstood me or u are purposely trying to misinterpret what I meant to say.

I understand fully what you mean, i simply don't agree with your argument. Simple as that, you need to stop assuming you arent being understood whenever the reality is that we are understanding but not agreeing with your perspective.

What I mean is basically even if Loid is shooting random moving targets in their vital points behind his back without even looking in the midst of CQC in front, how is that not a skill feat?

It's a skill feat, what i'm saying is that it isn't nearly as impressive as your making it out to be. He's shooting two goons from a VERY close range, while also kicking a few in front of him. Loid is already significantly stronger and more skilled than a pact of random goons, he's also faster than them as well which takes away from this feat further unless you assume those guns have the same AP, durability, speed and skill as Loid which is obviously bullshit.

Like u are trying to argue as if Arthur is shooting at guys who are casually dodging bullets or something and not randos themselves.

Difference is that Arthur is fighting some of the biggest Western Gangs that have training and resources. Nearly everyone and their mothers were much more familiar with guns back then, as it usually meant life or death on a near daily basis. Wiping out hordes of trained men casually (Groups of Blackwater Agents, The Military, guerrilla war units in Gurama, etc.), has much better accuracy feats, copying abilities, sniping feats, has mastered weapons he's never used before such as Bows and Tomahawk's, escaping from the Law for years non stop, can nail multiple moving targets easily due to how Dead-Eye works.

Does training in the early 20th century made guys capable of dodging gunfire?

Did i say they were capable of dodging gunfire? No now stop strawmaning, it's literally the only argument you have here. I listed skill feats that you've been ignoring and using your same logic that Loid feat gets even worse since the goons he shot couldn't dodge bullets either.

Show me a feat where Arthur can shoot at moving targets vital points behind his back without even looking.

Those's goons were directly behind him, close enough to where he could just hear them. Again shooting vastly weaker, slower and vastly less skilled rando's isn't as impressive as your making it out to see. Show me Loid taking out the best gunslingers in the west, killing the most dangerous of animals, dogging the military and police on several occasions, copying abilities that gunslingers need decades to master after seeing them be used once, kill literal hordes of men, etc.


fyi Dead-Eye was literally made for those with poor to no eyesight. Arthur and John have used it after being blinded before.

or maybe there are feats beter than this I guess cos early 20th century training is just different Ig

There are, you've just been ignoring all of them.

 

[LordGinSama]

His combat speed is supersonic in this fight...the bullets are subsonic+ to supersonic ranging from 250m/s to 750m/s with his fastest rifle

His combat speed is irrelevant, for 15 seconds he'll see Loid moving astronomically slower allowing him ample time to react. His reaction speed is amped to the point where getting the first drop on Loid is essentially guaranteed. And during those 15 seconds Arthur can make multiple shots before Loid has the chance to properly react and even make counter measures such as shooting where he'll try to dodge before he dodges.

The speed difference legitimately ain't enough to blitz anything regardless if arthur from his own perspective views loid as frozen and can unload shots loid ain't actually frozen and is very well fast enough to dodge supersonic bullets as Arthur's a perception amp doesn't change how fast the other guy is or how fast the bullets go, both are at a set speed in this match.

But it does allow him to draw his weapon significantly faster than Loid. Again as I've posted, we've seen what Dead-Eye does whenever it's used against people with the same speed as you. Since Arthur can reach for his weapon first he can shoot off first multiple times and in various spots.


It doesn't need to make Loid slower, that's essentially irrelevant due to Arthur's reaction speed being amped to the point where he sees Loid as stagnant. That's how much faster Arthur's reaction time would be, so yeah he can attack long before Loid does.

Buddy it doesn't matter the point still stands when using deadeye the man still aims at where he plans to shoot before he does it.

Pal he has 15 whole ass seconds to do that, which is more than enough. Secondly again as I said, he doesn't need to target anything, Dead-Eye already takes care of telling him where he needs to aim, after that all he needs to do is point and pull the trigger all while he's looking at Loid like he's frozen.

i genuinely am not seeing how you're arguing against something that's just been shown to be objective here.

What do you think I'm arguing against exactly? I'm arguing that Arthur doesn't need to take the time to figure out where his vitals are, Dead-Eye already does that so all he needs to do is aim at the highlights. Which is more than easy to accomplish given that he'll be reacting many times faster for 15 entire seconds.

Like every video sent literally shows the same thing, I get what you're saying but functionally dude always aims the exact same way in practice with deadeye pointing his gun wherever pretty straightforwardly at that.

Yes I'm aware of that. He needs to aim yes, that's not my point. Dead-Eye already tells him where he needs to aim, so he doesn't need to waste time by searching for vitals on the body. They appear and Arthur simply matches his bullets with them while his perception of time is halted.

Read above, also deadeye isn't like some third person influence the man still aims his gun where he is going to shoot prior to doing so he just blatantly does in every instance, so him aiming to mark where he plans to shoot beforehand vitals or not is an action prior to him shooting Loid can act on, mind you Loid isn't being slowed down here only Arthur's own perception of loid.

Fortunately i never said that he doesn't need to aim, but that Dead-Eye takes care of where he needs to aim. Arthur himself does not need to find where to shoot, Dead-Eye places targets where he needs to shoot then he aims at them. Furthermore, time not being actually halted is irrelevant whenever his reaction speed is being amped many times above Loid's own so Arthur is gonna be the one that's significantly quicker to react.


Again this is what Arthur can do to multiple men with similar speed to his own with Dead-Eye. His reaction speeds are significantly amped, allowing him to draw his gun before they can. It essentially acts as a pseudo speed amp, not an actual speed amp but due to it's nature it has similar effects. He draws his gun first, meaning he shoots first. It's that simple.

The bullets aren't being speed up here aside from the one that reaches 750m/s however at supersonic speeds thats negligible and most rounds are outright outsped at the speed this fight is at or they're not significantly faster to the point they still are irrelevant even at point blank range.

750m/s is at all accurate given that he has a semi automatic shotgun which can fire explosive rounds, which would travel faster than a normal round due to obvious reasons. I also have doubts on Loid being able to consistently dodge bullets like that, hell he was tagged by the Sniper the first time till he started acting overconfident and predictable.


You do realize that Arthur's guns are upgraded varieties of the irl counterparts right? He can make them shoot significantly faster via rifling upgrades.

moreso than his fastest rounds his best bet would be his explosive shotgun but even that kinda goes out the window with the semi auto shotgun since it has tighter grouping and is more precise with less spread so if he wants aoe then it still will call for a slower gun since deadeye doesn't really negate the guns fire rate either.

Fortunately he has other guns such as the Volanic Pistol or any of the automatic custom pistols he has in which you can still use explosives rounds from.

Really all else aside my point is just saying it comes down a speed blitz GGs ain't accurate at all, so any revolver shots are kinda a non factor, shotguns and the express ammo are a maybe as at even in 2m range they can still be completely avoided at the speeds this fight is at

I'm not gonna sit here going back and forth here with you so I'll suppose we'll agree to disagree. However I'm pretty sure this is past grace and incon due to the votes so pretty sure arguing is irrelevant now.

 

[Phoenks]

Combat speed is equalized. Not attack speed. You should know how that works already.

 

[LordGinSama]

At 1:18 Before Sean's body even goes limp and hits the ground Micah kills the sniper on the roof to his life, pulls his other revolver shoots the gunman directly in front of him then does a 180 to shoot the dude behind him.

 

[Dalesean027]

Seeing as this is still going pretty circular then this will probably be my last post on the topic

I'm not gonna sit here going back and forth here with you so I'll suppose we'll agree to disagree. However I'm pretty sure this is past grace and incon due to the votes so pretty sure arguing is irrelevant now.

Its quite frankly not even an agree to disagree deal here when dealing with objective numbers, like it ain't even opinion based its numbers based

His combat speed is irrelevant, for 15 seconds he'll see Loid moving astronomically slower allowing him ample time to react. His reaction speed is amped to the point where getting the first drop on Loid is essentially guaranteed. And during those 15 seconds Arthur can make multiple shots before Loid has the chance to properly react and even make counter measures such as shooting where he'll try to dodge before he dodges.

it does allow him to draw his weapon significantly faster than Loid. Again as I've posted, we've seen what Dead-Eye does whenever it's used against people with the same speed as you. Since Arthur can reach for his weapon first he can shoot off first multiple times and in various spots.

It doesn't need to make Loid slower, that's essentially irrelevant due to Arthur's reaction speed being amped to the point where he sees Loid as stagnant. That's how much faster Arthur's reaction time would be, so yeah he can attack long before Loid does.

His combat does not become irrelevant though as bullets are moving at their same velocities brodie Arthur can view him as a statue and that had no bearing on Loid being supersonic and still being able to react and avoid his shots.

Yall keep saying attack speed and combat speed are seperate and when I read it out to yall now its switched up and suddenly somehow we're rationalizing that someone who is supersonic in this match is getting statued by bullets moving between 250~750m/s at range

In fact at Supersonic speeds almost any form of gunfire from said fastest weapons he has becomes pointless at 2 meters and beyond due to their top speeds being at around 750m/s, Loid for all intensive purposes isn't going to be blindly rushing in at Arthur if anything he's going to be getting more ground in this fight and for any distance further he gets the moreso the bullets become complete irrelevant, hell this applies to both at that.


Genuinely this is quite the simple numbers thing, at 3m away with Arthur's fastest weapon at 750m/s it would take 4 milliseconds to reach Loid if we was standing there not moving at all just letting himself be shot and die from being a vegetable and choosing to not react however he is cleerly not and in the time it'd take for any of the fastest rounds to reach him Loid can move over 1.5m away in any direction. This isn't even an analytical prediction thing or something you even need some supreme skill for its just a given at that speed and even if Arthur is shooting ahead of where Loid is going its not like the man can't simply go a different direction...nothing says dude has to stand there and get shot when something like this for characters at said speed could do this all day and realistically at any distance 2m and beyond it becomes a non factor as the time he has to act in real time is enough to not strain himself or even needing to rely on any crazy abilities to dodge.


Legitimately since yall won't take my word ping any CGM because with the numbers we have its quite simple, this shouldn't even be a debate.

Arthur's bullets aren't getting any faster we know their speed and his fastest shots aren't even 3x their speed in this speed equals match hardly a blitz no matter how good Arthur's perception is and hell atp he'd just statue his own bullets too if he sees that much faster than them enough to know he'd really only have a chance by bullrushung the guy to close the distance to get his Aoe to land

Combat speed is equalized. Not attack speed. You should know how that works already.

Buddy their equalized speed is supersonic via the very rules you seem to be gleefully ignoring

The combat speed of that faster character is assumed to be equalized to the combat speed of the slower character. Every other speed the faster character has is reduced by the same multiplier. This includes the speed of any attacks, projectiles, reactions, perception, flight etc.

Meaning Loid goes from Supersonic+ to Supersonic

 

[LordGinSama]

Seeing as this is still going pretty circular then this will probably be my last post on the topic.

Ditto. From this point it'd be best to let people vote which side they agree with. Furthermore I'm pretty sure this is past grace making it incon due to the votes so arguing further is essentially meaningless.

Its quite frankly not even an agree to disagree deal here when dealing with objective numbers, like it ain't even opinion based its numbers based

Not quite and I'll explain.

His combat does not become irrelevant though as bullets are moving at their same velocities brodie Arthur can view him as a statue and that had no bearing on Loid being supersonic and still being able to react and avoid his shots.

People caught in Dead-Eye are unable to react in time due to Arthur already have drawn, aimed and pointed before any action is taken against him. His reactions are amped to the point where Loid is stagnant, it doesn't matter if it's an actual time stop because Arthur's reactions will be amped to point where he has ample time to make moves first.


At least Transonic, possibly Supersonic (On par with Marston and can replicate the same feats as him, like outpacing revolver rounds and whatnot. Should easily be faster than Benjamin Lazarus, a magician who can catch real bullets with his teeth), higher with Eagle Eye. Subsonic+ (Most revolvers during the 1890s and the early 1900s could easily hit over 250 m/s) to Supersonic with firearms (Used a Winchester Rifle. Shotgun shells can exceed 549 m/s, while the pellets from those shells can hit 425 m/s. Several rifles during his time had muzzle velocities easily exceeding 750 m/s), higher attack speed with high-velocity ammunition.

Yall keep saying attack speed and combat speed are seperate and when I read it out to yall now its switched up and suddenly somehow we're rationalizing that someone who is supersonic in this match is getting statued by bullets moving between 250~750m/s at range.

Loid isn't avoiding bullets even with the speed being equalized. He's been tagged before by sniper rounds and could only react to them via analytical prediction. Furthermore Loid's supersonic+ is only for combat speed, his reactions and movement speed only scale to Yor's superhuman movement. Arthur is Transonic to Supersonic for his overall speed, with his overall speed being amped with Eagle-Eye and Dead-Eye.

In fact at Supersonic speeds almost any form of gunfire from said fastest weapons he has becomes pointless at 2 meters and beyond due to their top speeds being at around 750m/s,

Arthur literally has rounds accepted to be faster than that in his profile. "Higher attack speed with high Velocity rounds.", express rounds are faster than High Velocity rounds and Explosive rounds are just as fast with added AoE.

Loid for all intensive purposes isn't going to be blindly rushing in at Arthur if anything he's going to be getting more ground in this fight.

Eagle Eye already covers this as explained above. TNT also helps Arthur getting rid of places to take cover.

and for any distance further he gets the moreso the bullets become complete irrelevant, hell this applies to both at that.

Not whenever Arthur quite literally has bullets that are faster than Loid's reactions. His combat speed doesn't scale to his movement speed or reactions, and Arthur is accepted to have higher attack speed than 750m/s in his profile with his ammo.

Genuinely this is quite the simple numbers thing, at 3m away with Arthur's fastest weapon at 750m/s it would take 4 milliseconds to reach Loid.

Read above, Dead-Eye makes it even worse when we take his ammo which is accepted to be faster than Supersonic+. Loid hasn't dodged anything going as fast as Arthur's special ammo.

if we was standing there not moving at all just letting himself be shot and die from being a vegetable and choosing to not react however he is cleerly not and in the time it'd take for any of the fastest rounds to reach him Loid can move over 1.5m away in any direction.

Read above. Loid does not have the reactions or movement speed to react to Arthur's bullets, let alone his rounds which are even faster than Loid's combat speed.

This isn't even an analytical prediction thing or something you even need some supreme skill for its just a given at that speed and even if Arthur is shooting ahead of where Loid is going its not like the man can't simply go a different direction.

One issue, that being Loid doesn't have the reaction speed to dodge bullets normally. Yor, to whom he downscales from only have Supersonic+ combat speed. Outside of that, they have superhuman movement and reaction speed. Arthur has rounds that travel faster than 750m/s and are accepted as such.

othing says dude has to stand there and get shot when something like this for characters at said speed could do this all day.

Loid can't move at those speeds or react at those speeds.

and realistically at any distance 2m and beyond it becomes a non factor as the time he has to act in real time is enough to not strain himself or even needing to rely on any crazy abilities to dodge.

Read above. Loid's movement speed and reaction speed don't scale to Supersonic+.

Legitimately since yall won't take my word ping any CGM because with the numbers we have its quite simple, this shouldn't even be a debate.

Yet anyone with eyes can read Loid's profile and see that he doesn't have the reaction or movement speed to dodge bullets, let alone even faster bullets (High Velocity, Express and Explosive.) some of which having AoE while Arthur is gonna be the first to start shooting via Dead-Eye.

Arthur's bullets aren't getting any faster.

At least Transonic, possibly Supersonic (On par with Marston and can replicate the same feats as him, like outpacing revolver rounds and whatnot. Should easily be faster than Benjamin Lazarus, a magician who can catch real bullets with his teeth), higher with Eagle Eye. Subsonic+ (Most revolvers during the 1890s and the early 1900s could easily hit over 250 m/s) to Supersonic with firearms (Used a Winchester Rifle. Shotgun shells can exceed 549 m/s, while the pellets from those shells can hit 425 m/s. Several rifles during his time had muzzle velocities easily exceeding 750 m/s), higher attack speed with high-velocity ammunition.

we know their speed and his fastest shots aren't even 3x their speed in this speed equals match hardly a blitz.

Read above. Loid doesn’t have the reaction or movement speed needed to dodge bullets, let alone one's as fast as Morgan's best bullets.

Yor quite literally only has Superhuman movement speed and Loid downscales from Yor. All they have is Supersonic+ attack speed, which Arthur has along with various means of faster bullets while being able to get the drop on Loid first.

no matter how good Arthur's perception is and hell atp he'd just statue his own bullets too if he sees that much faster than them enough to know he'd really only have a chance by bullrushung the guy to close the distance to get his Aoe to land

Read above. Superhuman attackspeed isn't enough to dodge bullets, let alone move that fast.

Buddy their equalized speed is supersonic via the very rules you seem to be gleefully ignoring

Speed being equalized doesn't mean Loid has supersonic+ movement speed whenever his movement speed downscales from Superhuman.

Meaning Loid goes from Supersonic+ to Supersonic

Loid's movement speed is only Superhuman.

 

[LordGinSama]

Superhuman movement speed (Can outrun cars[27] moving at Daily City travel speed), Supersonic+ combat speed (When serious, she could swing her arm at such a speed that Fiona was unable to perceive her actions[26]. While intentionally holding back, she could hit a tennis ball that it moves at supersonic speeds[26]. Can dodge a spear at point blank range[22]), Hypersonic attack speed with projectiles (Can send a volleyball into space[16])


Not to mention the Spy x Family profiles are as. Loid doesn't even have a speed rating for the rest of his speed such as movement and reaction speeds, only his combat speed is listed. Someone needs to fix these profiles tbh.

 

[LordGinSama]

Tnt detonates with a Velocity of 6,940 m/s btw so even with speed being equalized that's at least 6x what Loid's combat speed scales to, with the added benefit of engulfing a wide area. Loid isn't avoiding something 6x faster than himself with a wide AoE.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Tnt detonates with a Velocity of 6,940 m/s btw so even with speed being equalized that's at least 6x what Loid's combat speed scales to, with the added benefit of engulfing a wide area. Loid isn't avoiding something 6x faster than himself with a wide AoE.

Gonna step in here for a moment. The thing with explosions like this is that while it detonates at that speed, it rapidly loses speed very shortly after its initial detonation

 

[LordGinSama]

Gonna step in here for a moment. The thing with explosions like this is that while it detonates at that speed, it rapidly loses speed very shortly after its initial detonation

Arthur can trigger that detonation in front of Loid via snipping it in Dead Eye.

 

[Phoenks]

Dalsean I'm going to suggest you actually read the rules on speed equalization rather than trying to accuse me of "ignoring" anything.

Combat speed is equalized down to Arthur's baseline supersonic. Everything else that Arthur has retains the same gap it has above his combat speed, so his bullets are multiple times faster than Loid.

Add that on top of dead eye and that's grounds for saying he just straight up blitzes.

 

[LordGinSama]

750m/s doesn't even take Arthur's rifling upgrades into consideration which makes the bullet travel even faster. Then there's things such as High Velocity rounds which travel which faster than that and can hit up to 4 men spread out.

 

[Dalesean027]

Combat speed is equalized down to Arthur's baseline supersonic. Everything else that Arthur has retains the same gap it has above his combat speed, so his bullets are multiple times faster than Loid.

I've said this myself explained in great detail at that how it makes the bullets speed irrelevant at 2m distance and beyond. Also its not even a 3x gap even with transonic. Ain't like the bullets are curving so he can still fully react and dodge given such distances and beyond but whateves.


This is just basic projectile dodging feat atp. A bullet can be a few times faster than a characters movement and they aren't just outright blitzed.. this ain't even a real point


Allat aside I've already said im done arguing but pheonks familiarize youself with standard doding feats and read any of what I actually said

 

[Phoenks]

You seem to be failing to realize that Loid isn't the only one who is capable of predicting stuff. You are acting like Arthur isn't smart enough to account for potential aim dodging, particularly when he can view Loid in slow motion and fire multiple shots.

 

[Dalesean027]

You seem to be failing to realize that Loid isn't the only one who is capable of predicting stuff. You are acting like Arthur isn't smart enough to account for potential aim dodging, particularly when he can view Loid in slow motion and fire multiple shots.

Im most certainly not, Several times in fact I've said the opposite.

In fact at Supersonic speeds almost any form of gunfire from said fastest weapons he has becomes pointless at 2 meters and beyond due to their top speeds being at around 750m/s, Loid for all intensive purposes isn't going to be blindly rushing in at Arthur if anything he's going to be getting more ground in this fight and for any distance further he gets the moreso the bullets become complete irrelevant, hell this applies to both at that.

I've got plenty more that show I've said as much as well but i think its unneeded, Wiki has no standards that say a less than 3x speed gap is grounds for being considered a blitz, hell mathematically it isn't even since i literally gave you numbers and timeframes using their accepted speeds and point blank distance of 2m to show reaction at said ranged are easily possible

 

[Zenkaibattery1]

This'll be my last long response too

Ditto. From this point it'd be best to let people vote which side they agree with. Furthermore I'm pretty sure this is past grace making it incon due to the votes so arguing further is essentially meaningless.

Is it incon? Arthur is up by 3-4 votes and last time votes were mentioned by someone supporting Loid they said if it became 8-5 to loid it'll be grace in Loid's favour:

Okay i managed to updated the votes, if i'm right then it's 6 for Loid and 5 for Arthur, need two more for Loid and we can enter the Grace period

If that's the case then it's grace for Arthur rn.

And all the arguments for Arthur is basically just Dead Eye as if its like some sort of insta win button that spawns the attack on the target regardless of distance range or obstacle or starting conditions.
I don't think anyone has downplayed Arthur's stealth feats or Eagle Eye. Just that Loid has arguably better stealth and infiltration feats.
And the way u r dowplaying Loid is even funnier.

"Downplaying Loid is even funnier" I literally agreed that Loid's stealth is better than Arthurs, which just tells me you aren't reading my points. All I noted was that Arthur's is far better than what is being talked about here, and that Loid's isn't astromically better to the point that it would shift it to his favor. Both have feats of infiltrating large bases/camps, etc, in different scenarios, weather environments, etc. In fact, as Gin pointed out, and anyone who has actually seen Spy Family, you should know Loid usually gets information for his missions prior, which he isn't getting here from a far greater source than Arthur does for his missions, arguably making Arthurs much more impressive since he usually has far less information. All in all, I don't see how you can get me "downplaying" loid when I already said his stealth is better than Arthur's. It is good, just not enough to shift it to his favour.

Don't think I need to tackle the rest, Gin handled them well.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Loid FRA, and planning to write some long ass answer to go more in depth, will likely take some hours to write, and considering how late is here I probably will not be able to post it until tomorrow. Though before that I would like to first ask about this part:

Last I checked no one else is around in new york due to sba. Still Loid could dip into a clothes shop and make a disguise in less than 5 minutes or smth

Since when is sba that there is no more people in NYC? This is literally the first time I have seen this in any vs thread, I think that maybe you are confusing this bit of the SBA:

Outside Influence: None. No characters of either verse, aside from those participating in the battle, may influence the outcome of the battle in any way. That means they may not join the fight, grant buffs, create shields, provide information etc. Exceptions are things like blessings, calling upon some higher entities power for a spell, summoning familiars to battle for them, having another character as equipment or more generally spoken the things which are listed on the profile as part of a characters own powers and abilities.

Which just simply clarify that the fighters don't get ant help from other characters of their respective verse, which at practical effects mean that Loid for example doesn't get any help from WISE, not that there aren't other people in the world.

 

[LordGinSama]

This is at 5 pages, just let the shit die or remake the thread at a later date. None of us want to argue further at this point tbh.