Logic Manipulation Ability Page Creation

[DontTalkDT]

I wanted to separate Logic Manipulation from Law Manipulation for quite a while, as throwing logic and laws of nature in one bucket always seemed strange to me. Sadly, there were never enough users to justify taking such a step.
However, as of late, the Tiering System Revision has changed the relevance of logic manipulation. It makes sense to have a page to document the standards and their reasoning now, so making a separate page for the ability appears like the best way to have that.

Without further ado, here is my proposal for the page and the standards for it.

This has in no small part been inspired by a discussion between me and Ultima which you can find starting here (ignore the prior parts of that thread, they are from before the Tiering Revision). For a change, we kinda agree, except for the reason to add limitations to the ability. (We both agree that there should be limitations, just for different reasons)
Opinions on that part would be appreciated.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Neutral on the ability itself existing. There is the whole "It's just Law Manipulation!" angle, but I think this blending just happens with a lot of those powers (Information Manipulation and Conceptual Manipulation come to mind), so it boils down to indifference for me.

As for the scope of it: I'm fine with logical truths being High 1-A+ potentially, but I'd only grant that if they're like, Forms subsisting independently of particulars and defining reality, and such. If they "exist" but don't subsist apart from individuals, I wouldn't grant that. Similar to how messing with the Type 2 concept of space would be [whatever tier the spatial cosmology of the verse is] but messing with the Type 1 concept of the same would be 1-A (By virtue of it encompassing arbitrarily large stretches of Low 1-A).

There's also how 1-A's strict cut-off point from Low 1-A and lower made us instate the standard of "Processes from lesser realities can't affect the higher realities using their own lower existences in-and-of-themselves," which I think would practically kneecap a lot of potential prospects of High 1-A+ hax for Logic Manipulation users. Have to make note of this, too.

It probably also varies between cosmologies, for the most part? For example, there are verses out there where logical and mathematical truths are just laws that vaguely "exist" and can be interfered with, but whose exact nature isn't very well-elaborated. There might also be verses where these truths exist and are Platonic Forms. And there might also be a verse that's basically totally nominalistic and has all these truths be grounded directly on a Tier 0 thread. A character who can use Logic Manipulation in Verse #1 wouldn't necessarily be able to use it in Verse #2, but vice-versa could occur, whereas a character who can use Logic Manipulation in #1 and #2 wouldn't be able to do anything in #3. Probably worth noting down when talking about the default potency of the ability.

 

[DontTalkDT]

As for the scope of it: I'm fine with logical truths being High 1-A+ potentially, but I'd only grant that if they're like, Forms subsisting independently of particulars and defining reality, and such. If they "exist" but don't subsist apart from individuals, I wouldn't grant that. Similar to how messing with the Type 2 concept of space would be [whatever tier the spatial cosmology of the verse is] but messing with the Type 1 concept of the same would be 1-A (By virtue of it encompassing arbitrarily large stretches of Low 1-A).

I'm fine with that being a consideration to take, although I wouldn't take that as the default assumption. Contrary to concepts I don't think logic would typically be thought to instantiate particulars. Like, being subject to logic is not an attribute of things but a tautology. It lies in the nature of logic to be universal, else it isn't logic. I dare say logic would have dominion over the world of forms in most any philosophy.
Given, contradictions definitely exist in fiction and those should get a lower tier. I just don't think it makes sense to preassume them.

There's also how 1-A's strict cut-off point from Low 1-A and lower made us instate the standardof "Processes from lesser realities can't affect the higher realities using their own lower existences in-and-of-themselves," which I think would practically kneecap a lot of potential prospects of High 1-A+ hax for Logic Manipulation users. Have to make note of this, too.

If you do it via energy, then yes. As I wrote in my draft, being part of an energy system is pretty much a disqualification, as at that point you introduced something like scope to it.
However, I don't think the same would apply to logic manipulation born from hax alone. It's not like there is a reasonable process to do logic manipulation to begin with and that such a process would in any way see relevance in levels of qualities or meta-qualities. I don't think there is more of a contradiction to a 10-B having it than a Tier 1-A having it, as it's a power that can potentially be independent of all other qualities.

If we defaulted to the assumption that logic is restricted by R>F layers, then we may as well allow Tier 0s to be, too, which the Tiering Revision voted against. Whether or not it makes sense would be irrelevant at that point, as logic in its standard form is already surpassed and ignored by the layers. Really, you can't really have meaningful steps beyond "surpasses logic" as reasoning just stops beyond that.
Our Tiering System relies on the assumption that standard logic applies up to the highest levels. So it only makes sense to keep exceptions to those that show them.

It probably also varies between cosmologies, for the most part? For example, there are verses out there where logical and mathematical truths are just laws that vaguely "exist" and can be interfered with, but whose exact nature isn't very well-elaborated.

I want to draw a strict difference to mathematical truths here, as they require extra assumptions and describe stuctures. They shouldn't be equated to pure logic. Worlds with different mathematics could be considered in the scope of "possible worlds". (of course it's up to the author whether they do it... yeah, different levels of High 1-A+!)

There might also be verses where these truths exist and are Platonic Forms. And there might also be a verse that's basically totally nominalistic and has all these truths be grounded directly on a Tier 0 thread. A character who can use Logic Manipulation in Verse #1 wouldn't necessarily be able to use it in Verse #2, but vice-versa could occur, whereas a character who can use Logic Manipulation in #1 and #2 wouldn't be able to do anything in #3. Probably worth noting down when talking about the default potency of the ability.

I haven't really seen those taken before. Usually, I would expect Platonic Forms to behave logically, meaning logic should govern them.
And... isn't that something that one could say about any metaphysical aspect? Like, philosophical opinion on all of them varies. Doesn't necessarily mean they don't interact, given that we do verse equalization. Would depend on if the difference is portrayed in a significant manner... which is actually pretty much what the metaphysical aspect page says, so I guess we got this covered.