Logia Regen Downgrade

[KingTempest]

I see no reason why regen null is needed with Marco being intangible, since haki would be able to touch his "natural body" where DF-regen can't be used, and the attack being just an impact (with no bones breaking) would be something his natural healing can heal after some time, which is exactly what we see.

So, any idea what the SFX when Garp punched him means? Because if it means something broke, there is something really strange here.

That's not why.
We know that Haki can touch the true body, the issue is that it wasn't healed afterwards.

The SFX means that something broke yes, it was probably his neck or collarbone or something, which is why he had the bandages around his neck during the funeral.

That's why i think a limited, a note or something like that should be added if we are keeping the regen null, it does not seem to have stopped his natural regen, since doing it would stop the regen in that area forever, or maybe it only stops all forms of regen for a certain amount of (unknown) time after the attack.

That's true.

Does everyone else agree? It was a long period of time though, so idk.

My bad, "powerful" was the wrong word, i didn't mean AP, but advanced haki users, we don't have examples of it happening anywhere else with the buso koka everyone has in New World, the only example comes from one of the greatest haki users of the verse (and if King/Queen do it again, it would be another feat that only happened at really high levels).

I understand you meant Advanced, I meant powerful in general.
Pre TS Zoro had more advanced Haki than most people (his emission Haki) but Vergo had much stronger Haki. Luffy has more advanced Haki than Sanji but Sanji can sense better. Stronger/More Powerful Haki ≠ AP.

It mainly comes from Haki being known to combat DF powers.
It wasn't emphasized that a certain level of Haki was required, pre TS Zoro could harm Daz Bones with haki and his haki wasn't anything super strong, and any regular Haki user can hurt Luffy, showing that it's not just High level Haki that counters DF abilities. Marco's fruit shouldn't be an exception.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Not sure I agree with Haki having the ability to negate non DF Regen

 

[KingTempest]

DFs show no difference from out of verse abilities. It's not founded on a power system, it's not something that's born in everyone, it's only difference is that it's an external ability.

 

[XDragnoir]

We know that Haki can touch the true body, the issue is that it wasn't healed afterwards.

The SFX means that something broke yes, it was probably his neck or collarbone or something, which is why he had the bandages around his neck during the funeral.

It wasn't healed by his devil fruit for the same reason Aokiji did not regen his leg, after your "natural body" is damaged by haki the only way to recover from that damage is by natural means and if the damage is beyond natural means you will have that damage permanently, so Marco by being intangible would have a "natural body" that could be damaged by Garp's haki and thus wouldn't heal via DF just like any Logia or Kata.

I mean, if his neck or something like that broke in the impact, wouldn't we be able to see some indication of that in his human form?

I understand you meant Advanced, I meant powerful in general.
Pre TS Zoro had more advanced Haki than most people (his emission Haki) but Vergo had much stronger Haki. Luffy has more advanced Haki than Sanji but Sanji can sense better. Stronger/More Powerful Haki ≠ AP.

It mainly comes from Haki being known to combat DF powers.
It wasn't emphasized that a certain level of Haki was required, pre TS Zoro could harm Daz Bones with haki and his haki wasn't anything super strong, and any regular Haki user can hurt Luffy, showing that it's not just High level Haki that counters DF abilities. Marco's fruit shouldn't be an exception.

I thought we treated Zoro as an inept user and not an advanced user? anyway.

Paramecias with body change properties and Logias have feats or statements of being countered by basic armament haki, while nulling regen is something that only happened once and was done by one of the top tiers, even Kizaru acknowledges his ability to regen from anything so i don't think a random with haki should scale to Garp's feat.

 

[KingTempest]

It wasn't healed by his devil fruit for the same reason Aokiji did not regen his leg, after your "natural body" is damaged by haki the only way to recover from that damage is by natural means and if the damage is beyond natural means you will have that damage permanently, so Marco by being intangible would have a "natural body" that could be damaged by Garp's haki and thus wouldn't heal via DF just like any Logia or Kata.

The difference is that we can see Marco's Natural body afterwards and he has been shown to heal his natural body.

I mean, if his neck or something like that broke in the impact, wouldn't we be able to see some indication of that in his human form?

Fair. It's very weird tbh

I thought we treated Zoro as an inept user and not an advanced user? anyway.

He used Advanced Haki but he was inept with it. It's very weird.

Paramecias with body change properties and Logias have feats or statements of being countered by basic armament haki, while nulling regen is something that only happened once and was done by one of the top tiers, even Kizaru acknowledges his ability to regen from anything so i don't think a random with haki should scale to Garp's feat.

We only get 1 Devil Fruit outside of Logias and we see it in a super serious battle (a war even), I don't think that's a good reason to negate it, since we don't see any other Haki users even attempt to hit him.

 

[XDragnoir]

The difference is that we can see Marco's Natural body afterwards and he has been shown to heal his natural body.

Base (human form) =/= Natural body here, Marco isn't a logia so he does not have a logia and non-logia states, same thing with Katakuri who is always mochi but can be hit and damaged by haki (i.e even his element being always on does not stop haki from hitting his "natural body"), and Marco's mid-high isn't limited to his Zoan form so it makes no sense to say we saw his "natural body".

We only get 1 Devil Fruit outside of Logias and we see it in a super serious battle (a war even), I don't think that's a good reason to negate it, since we don't see any other Haki users even attempt to hit him.

I didn't understand this part, wouldn't the lack of more haki users attacking him support my point? We have a top tier saying nothing can damage him and an even higher top tier damaging him, i don't think that's a good base to "any haki user can bypass Mid-High regen".

 

[KingTempest]

Base (human form) =/= Natural body here, Marco isn't a logia so he does not have a logia and non-logia states, same thing with Katakuri who is always mochi but can be hit and damaged by haki (i.e even his element being always on does not stop haki from hitting his "natural body"), and Marco's mid-high isn't limited to his Zoan form so it makes no sense to say we saw his "natural body".

Base Form*
Woah, Mid-High isn't limited to his Zoan? He's been shot in his base and hasn't instantly regenned, only healing himself manually afterwards.

I didn't understand this part, wouldn't the lack of more haki users attacking him support my point? We have a top tier saying nothing can damage him and an even higher top tier damaging him, i don't think that's a good base to "any haki user can bypass Mid-High regen".

I'm saying that he hasn't been hit by that many people. Kizaru didn't even try to use Haki on him from what we've seen.
That argument is the exact same as Daz saying "no blade can harm me" then Zoro with Haki cutting him.
And again, higher Haki doesn't add more abilities. The most regular Haki can cancel out DF abilities, stronger haki users can resist that. Having more potent haki ≠ adding more abilities that can be nullified.

 

[KingTempest]

Also, I know this is a regen thread, but it still heavily includes Marco.

Could I extend Marco's range via his projectiles?

 

[Darkvie123]

I can agree with this

 

[XDragnoir]

Woah, Mid-High isn't limited to his Zoan? He's been shot in his base and hasn't instantly regenned, only healing himself manually afterwards.

When? I only remember this happening when he was hand-cuffed with Kairouseki, and there is a panel where he is... wtf? You said in the OP that a hole through his head was filled with fire, and there is a panel in Wano where there is a sword through his head, don't we agree that he has the same regen in base and zoan? Or High-Mid will be for his base and Mid-High for Zoan?

Big Mom didn't use haki to grab him in 995, what does not make sense if he is made of fire in base, so there is that, but i thought we agreed his whole body was made of fire in all forms, no?

 

[KingTempest]

When? I only remember this happening when he was hand-cuffed with Kairouseki, and there is a panel where he is... wtf? You said in the OP that a hole through his head was filled with fire, and there is a panel in Wano where there is a sword through his head, don't we agree that he has the same regen in base and zoan? Or High-Mid will be for his base and Mid-High for Zoan?

This happened twice where it went through him and he coughed blood.

When Marco has his wings out, he can regenerate. In this instance where his wings weren't out, he didn't immediately regenerate.

Big Mom didn't use haki to grab him in 995, what does not make sense if he is made of fire in base, so there is that, but i thought we agreed his whole body was made of fire in all forms, no?

There's invisible Busoshoku you know that right...

 

[KingTempest]

Bump.

I can't ask "what has been agreed on" since there's literally 2 things and they're tied together, but I'm assuming the masses agree with mid-high minimum.

Aokiji has been shown to get vibrated into incredibly small particles and regrow completely new ice and his whole body from it. Other logias should be capable of the same exact effect (justifying High for Kizaru, regrowing photons), and Marco directly scales.

 

[Kurifesilon]

Bump.

I can't ask "what has been agreed on" since there's literally 2 things and they're tied together, but I'm assuming the masses agree with mid-high minimum.

Aokiji has been shown to get vibrated into incredibly small particles and regrow completely new ice and his whole body from it. Other logias should be capable of the same exact effect (justifying High for Kizaru, regrowing photons), and Marco directly scales.

I agree with the minimum option. high regen seems far-fetched imo.

I believe the “no limits” statement simply means that Marco doesn’t have the limitations that your average logia has, like not being able to regenerate from haki for example.

 

[Antvasima]

I am personally very reluctant to give Marco much higher degrees of regeneration than what he has actually demonstrated. His regeneration does seem to work after all types of attacks, including Haki, though, which makes him greatly superior to logias in that sense. In addition, the logias largely seem to operate on elemental intangibility rather than traditional regeneration.

An "At least [current regeneration level]" might be acceptable though.

@Elizhaa @Celestial_Pegasus @DemonGodMitchAubin @DarkDragonMedeus @Damage3245

What do you think that we should do here?

 

[Damage3245]

An "At least [current regeneration level]" might be acceptable though.

This would be fine with me.

All in all, the nature of Marco's regeneration and Haki gives me some doubts.

Characters who are wounded by Haki-users aren't left with permanent/long-lasting injuries. They can clearly heal and regenerate naturally from them.

Marco... maybe he just didn't bother healing the injury on his face, as unlikely as that would seem.

King isn't a confirmed user of Armament Haki yet, but if he is then we would have to believe that he chose not to use Haki when cutting off Marco's wing for some reason. That is also equally weird to me as Marco's face not healing straight away after being punched by Garp.

 

[KingTempest]

Is there any reason for Mid-High not to be accepted?

It's the exact same reason for Ace's regeneration.

I don't see any reason for Mid-High or High to be replaced with an "at least", it seems (with all due respect) irrelevant if we clearly see otherwise.

 

[Antvasima]

Does Marco's highest displayed regeneration feat warrrant a higher tier than currently? If so, it should be fine, but otherwise we have to be careful to avoid speculation.

 

[KingTempest]

Ace gets his regeneration for being able to create/reform new fire as its destroyed.

Marco is able to and consistently shows that he is able to create new fire on his body as he regenerates, which I'm assuming I've proven in the OP.

Ace gets Mid-High for that, Marco currently had mid. Ace has 3 levels over Marco for something Marco can do.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I had the impression that the logias have to activate their elemental intangibility states for regeneration to work, and that it is vulnerable to haki, whereas Marco has no such limitations. He just automatically heals from anything, period.

Anyway, we should strictly use their greatest displayed regeneration feats for all of them. Nobody has truly recovered from being destroyed at anywhere near a particle level for example.

 

[KingTempest]

Well, I had the impression that the logias have to activate their elemental intangibility states for regeneration to work, and that it is vulnerable to haki, whereas Marco has no such limitations. He just automatically heals from anything, period.

Logias have their regeneration solely for their logia form because they can recreate their element whenever they want to while in that form.
Marco can do the exact same thing.

Anyway, we should strictly use their greatest displayed regeneration feats for all of them. Nobody has truly recovered from being destroyed at anywhere near a particle level for example.

 

[Damage3245]

@KingTempest; those still seem to be relatively large chunks of ice.

 

[Antvasima]

Damage is correct. I think that this is comparable to regenerating from an arm or other relatively large body part. It is nowhere near High regeneration.

 

[KingTempest]

@KingTempest; those still seem to be relatively large chunks of ice.

 

[KingTempest]

Damage is correct. I think that this is comparable to regenerating from an arm or other relatively large body part. It is nowhere near High regeneration.

Ant, the point of the scan is to show that Logias are put to that low of a size where they need to regenerate, and people like Kizaru who creates particles to form himself back together would qualify for this.

I linked the threads where they got accepted in the beginning

 

[Antvasima]

It is still a lot of body substance. That substance simply happens to be the ice that he is made of.

 

[Antvasima]

Ant, the point of the scan is to show that Logias are put to that low of a size where they need to regenerate, and people like Kizaru who creates particles to form himself back together would qualify for this.

I linked the threads where they got accepted in the beginning

Kizaru regenerated from being torn in two pieces by an explosion. He was not destroyed down to a few remaining particles. He doesn't have anywhere near High regeneration.

 

[KingTempest]

Kizaru regenerated from being torn in two pieces by an explosion. He was not destroyed down to a few remaining particles. He doesn't have anywhere near High regeneration.

Ant, I understand that.

I'm saying that since we see other logias who were put to that limit (Aokiji above, and I put the arrows to where they were extremely tiny amounts), it means that logically, other logias are capable of the same thing.

Because other logias are capable of it, Kizaru is also capable of it.

Because Kizaru is capable of being destroyed to extremely small particles and regrowing from that via more particles, he would qualify for High regeneration.

High: The ability to regenerate from a few scattered or lone molecules, atoms, or sub-atomic particles.

No way am I saying what Aokiji is doing is High Regen, not what I'm saying at all.

 

[Kurifesilon]

Kizaru regenerated from being torn in two pieces by an explosion. He was not destroyed down to a few remaining particles. He doesn't have anywhere near High regeneration.

Their logia forms are 100% made by their respective elements, there is nothing that is not made of their element when they are in that form except for their souls.

Unless you can prove that their logia are not formed completely by their element, which is completely natural, or that they are unable to generate an unlimited amount of their respective elements then their survival capabilities should be comparable to whatever their element is.

 

[Damage3245]

I'm saying that since we see other logias who were put to that limit (Aokiji above, and I put the arrows to where they were extremely tiny amounts), it means that logically, other logias are capable of the same thing.

Tiny pieces of Aokiji's body being broken off doesn't seem to matter much when there's still also several large chunks of ice on the same panel. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your argument.

 

[KingTempest]

Tiny pieces of Aokiji's body being broken off doesn't seem to matter much when there's still also several large chunks of ice on the same panel. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your argument.

Damage.

Ignore the large pieces of ice.

There are smaller chunks of ice that regrew into his full body.

 

[Ashura]

Elemental intangability wouldn't allow u to regenerate when hit but passively not be hit when in element state.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I still find this largely based on speculation rather than proof.

@SomebodyData @Dragonmasterxyz @Celestial_Pegasus @Soldier_Blue @Andytrenom @DarkDragonMedeus @Mr._Bambu @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura

I would appreciate your help with evaluating how we should properly rate the regeneration levels for the One Piece logia characters along with Marco the Phoenix. I think that the former are currently greatly exaggerated, and now there seem to be attempts to similarly exaggerate Marco's abilities as well.

 

[KingTempest]

I ask that the threads linked in the OP are read before this is read, since those were the ones where this topic was accepted a while ago

 

[XDragnoir]

Damage.

Ignore the large pieces of ice.

There are smaller chunks of ice that regrew into his full body.

If there are large chunks then he simply does not get the level of regen from a smaller one, the total amount of remaining body needs to be small to get better levels of regen, not some few pieces.

 

[KingTempest]

So I'm assuming high is gone.

Is there an issue with mid-high or no?

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

I don't really see an Issue with Mid-High for Marco.

 

[Antvasima]

It is based entirely on speculation. He has no feats of anywhere near this scale, and neither do any other characters.

 

[KingTempest]

It is based entirely on speculation. He has no feats of anywhere near this scale, and neither do any other characters.

Also, I'm against High regeneration for Enel; lightning bolts are still plasma much like fire and would only qualify for Mid-High.

Marco is fire Ant, which is Plasma, and he regenerates plasma. That is exactly what qualifies for Mid-High Ant.

 

[Antvasima]

No, he is a mythical creature that has regenerated severe head wounds. That's it.

I really like One Piece, but I dislike atttempts to severely exaggerate information for any verse.

 

[Damage3245]

No, he is a mythical creature that has regenerated severe head wounds. That's it.

I really like One Piece, but I dislike atttempts to severely exaggerate information for any verse.

I have to agree with Antvasima.

Marco may partially transform into fire in his full phoenix mode, but parts of his body still seem to be non-fire, and I don't think it has been specified in the series that he can fully transform into fire as opposed to just a fiery bird.