Lochness Monster vs Zagred (Battle for 9th strongest Non-Smurf 6-B)

[Rikimarox2]

Should be relatively simple.

Speed is equalized.

Both are 6-B.

Nessie (Second Life Ranker): 0

Zagred: 0

Incon: 0

 

[Rikimarox2]

So... Not sure what Zagred can exactly do, but what can he do against Nessie's passive madness manip? Or its poison via Subjective Reality that can poison the soul and kill them, and bypasses normal resistances?

Also, Nessie is a being born from Chaos and Disorder, and although it was stated to be a conceptual being, its true body was never stated to actually interact with anything, just that it can be used to resurrect itself or regenerate.

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

Not sure what Zagred can exactly do

Zagred can pin him to the ground but that does not stop the other guy use of absurd hax, I would need to know how he use it but yeah, Zagred would pin him and after seeing that this guy can´t die he would leave it there

I am not voting, that is just his win condition in my opinion for my lack of knowledge, because I am seeing "In his domain, he can do anything" which mean he just wish to teleport out? Or he can just desire your death? if that so, he completely stomps Zagred

 

[Rikimarox2]

Zagred can pin him to the ground but that does not stop the other guy use of absurd hax, I would need to know how he use it but yeah, Zagred would pin him and after seeing that this guy can´t die he would leave it there

Nessie is an outer god, is free from the laws of physics, and just by staring at it will cause you to go insane. I'm not even sure if Restraining him will do anything since Nessie isn't a normal monster, but one that is specifically Chaos and Disorder. Hell, I'm not seeing any resistances to madness based on Zagred's profile, so he'll go insane just by looking at Nessie.

I am not voting, that is just his win condition in my opinion for my lack of knowledge, because I am seeing "In his domain, he can do anything" which mean he just wish to teleport out? Or he can just desire your death? if that so, he completely stomps Zagred

Eh, no, not really. What it can do (based on what is shown): Resurrect itself, other monsters who had their souls crushed, change the cause and effect just like when the MC tried to attack it, it changed it so that the MC would be teleported a **** ton away and was attacked by other monsters without him knowing what happened, he was also poisoned, too. For example, when the MC killed many monsters, Nessie simply used its domain and instantly changed the infinite massacre into nothing, and the MC saw himself being attacked by the monsters. Additionally, Nessie can also use its illusory change just to rewind time. And it was stated it can create something out of nothing.

Those are basically all it has shown to do. It can probably do a **** ton more, but I'm mostly going based on what has currently shown.

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

it will cause you to go insane.

Zagred resist it unless I am wrong about having resistance to mind manipulation= resisting madness and Zagred resist madness type 2 but not 3

Nessie is an outer god, is free from the laws of physics

I am reading he can just change causality so no attack can affect him, so Zagred´s magic won´t reach him at all in the first place and Zagred can´t power null him, so gg

 

[Rikimarox2]

Zagred resist it unless I am wrong about having resistance to mind manipulation= resisting madness and Zagred resist madness type 2 but not 3

Resisting Mind manip or Madness Manip Type 2 doesn't mean you can resist Type 3. One of my characters lost specifically because of this.

I am reading he can just change causality so no attack can affect him, so Zagred´s magic won´t reach him at all in the first place and Zagred can´t power null him, so gg

Nah, Nessie needs to take a breath in order to use its Illusory Change, so the causality shit isn't passive, but breath-based. That said, from what I'm reading, Zagred only has hundreds of meters in terms of range, meanwhile Nessie is hundreds of kilometers. So, he's severely outranged. Hell, even if it did manage to reach him, the powernull won't be able to effect him considering Nessie should resist multiple layers of it.

 

[Epsilon_R]

Mind Manipulation resistance should allow you to resist madness Manipulation regardless of its type

 

[Rikimarox2]

Mind Manipulation resistance should allow you to resist madness Manipulation regardless of its type

I've heard the complete opposite. Maybe you could resist type 2, but type 3 specifically requires you to have a similar feat to it. Do you have any threads that says that resisting Mind can resist all types of Madness?

 

[Epsilon_R]

I've heard the complete opposite. Maybe you could resist type 2, but type 3 specifically requires you to have a similar feat to it. Do you have any threads that says that resisting Mind can resist all types of Madness?

I mean I'm almost sure I've seen mind manip resist T3 madness.

Maybe in some hunter x hunter match-up

 

[Rikimarox2]

I mean I'm almost sure I've seen mind manip resist T3 madness.

Maybe in some hunter x hunter match-up

Not me though, no. Hell, one of my characters which had resistance to mind manip and some type of madness manip was stated that he can't resist type 3, because you need to have specific resistances to each. Mind manip by itself won't do anything.

 

[Epsilon_R]

Maybe you should ask a staff member

 

[Rikimarox2]

So, I've made a thread for the question, and people indeed said that resisting mind manip only grants resistance to type 2 madness manip, not type 3. Which is what I thought as well.

Aka, Zagred will turn insane the moment he looks at Nessie.

 

[Epsilon_R]

Can you link the thread?

 

[Rikimarox2]

https://vsbattles.com/threads/does-resisting-mind-manip-means-you-resist-all-types-of-madness-manip.152564/

 

[Arnoldstone18]

So... Not sure what Zagred can exactly do, but what can he do against Nessie's passive madness manip? Or its poison via Subjective Reality that can poison the soul and kill them, and bypasses normal resistances?

Also, Nessie is a being born from Chaos and Disorder, and although it was stated to be a conceptual being, its true body was never stated to actually interact with anything, just that it can be used to resurrect itself or regenerate.

do people really check the devil physiology page

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Wait T3 Madness Manip?

Why doesn’t Mind manip resistance apply to cognitive madness manipulation?? That’s so dumb.

 

[Rikimarox2]

Wait T3 Madness Manip?

Why doesn’t Mind manip resistance apply to cognitive madness manipulation?? That’s so dumb.

Ask the wiki, not me.

Anyways, as it stands (Unless the standards change), Zagred turns insane the moment the fight starts.

Not that it matters that much, anyways, as Nessie can just soul poison him with its Subjective reality. Dude just makes it so Zagred is poisoned and that's it.

 

[Epsilon_R]

Ask the wiki, not me.

Anyways, as it stands (Unless the standards change), Zagred turns insane the moment the fight starts.

Not that it matters that much, anyways, as Nessie can just soul poison him with its Subjective reality. Dude just makes it so Zagred is poisoned and that's it.

Zagred can still undo that via Reality Warping

 

[Rikimarox2]

Zagred can still undo that via Reality Warping

Ah, I assume it recovers him as well? If so then Madness and Fear manip is Nessie's wincon. Or, just, outlasting him if his reality warping uses stamina.

 

[Lynieryz]

Wait T3 Madness Manip?

Why doesn’t Mind manip resistance apply to cognitive madness manipulation?? That’s so dumb.

Why would it apply? type 3 is about the very existence of a being driving someone crazy.

 

[Rikimarox2]

Anyways, I assume people are fine with Nessie winning this?

 

[Arnoldstone18]

well Zagred has fought while insane over the agony of losing to weaklings. So how effective is his Type 3 Madness manipulation. Is there evidence that enemies are incapped or does it just claim they lose their shit when they see a God.

 

[Rikimarox2]

Nope, just that seeing one will cause someone to go completely insane and lose their sanity and reason.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Nope, just that seeing one will cause someone to go completely insane and lose their sanity and reason.

Since Zagred isn’t faced with incap level of Madness. I think Zagred could be capable of continuing this fight with the mind of an Ancient Demon in BC. He has gone mad before while losing against Asta and co before anyways cuz they’re foiling his plans which he meticulously developed for centuries.

Zagred would most likely be spamming his Word Soul magic in Demonic Language which mostly used for releasing and amping hordes and hordes of monsters. If he’s speaking the language of the living he would mostly say “get back” “cease” “go away” “be crushed”. Keep in mind that he doesn’t spam with one mouth, he would develop mouths all over his body to spam Word Soul Spells.

Normally Zagred would calmly assess situations before doing shit as mind boggling as that. But now that he has gone insane he would begin acting crazy and spamming spells.

.

 

[Rikimarox2]

Since Zagred isn’t faced with incap level of Madness. I think Zagred could be capable of continuing this fight with the mind of an Ancient Demon in BC. He has gone mad before while losing against Asta and co before anyways cuz they’re foiling his plans which he meticulously developed for centuries.

Zagred would most likely be spamming his Word Soul magic in Demonic Language which mostly used for releasing and amping hordes and hordes of monsters. If he’s speaking the language of the living he would mostly say “get back” “cease” “go away” “be crushed”. Keep in mind that he doesn’t spam with one mouth, he would develop mouths all over his body to spam Word Soul Spells.

Normally Zagred would calmly assess situations before doing shit as mind boggling as that. But now that he has gone insane he would begin acting crazy and spamming spells.

.

Not sure why it wouldn't be incap level, but for the sake of the argument, let's just go with it:

Why wouldn't Nessie be able to revert all of those monsters and everything Zagred did till the end of time via his illusory world, and just eventually incap via higher stamina? Hell, since he's "insane", I don't see what stops Nessie from just poisoning him and killing him. Additionally, what stops Nessie's multi-layered fear manip?

That's ignoring why its madness wouldn't even be incap, since people said that once they lose their sanity it would be over. It's not a rage-inducing shiz.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Not sure why it wouldn't be incap level, but for the sake of the argument, let's just go with it:

You just said it’s not incap level you bush fowl.

Simply going mad isn’t enough for fight to end. Living things act differently when their sanity is lost and even more so when they’re afraid of said thing in front of them. They’d often try to defend themselves, you’ve watched Fire Force right? If so you should know about Infernals that have lost their minds that’s the best example I can give.

 

[Rikimarox2]

Ah, I should've worded it better. I said "Nope" as in, we weren't shown feats of it, just statements, since all the characters that meet the dudes resist it.

Anyways, you doodoo water, even if it isn't an incap, what exactly can Zagred do against his poison if the madness only, well, turns him insane? Additionally, can he even affect a being made from pure chaos and disorder, and is free from the laws of physics?

 

[Rikimarox2]

They’d often try to defend themselves, you’ve watched Fire Force right? If so you should know about Infernals that have lost their minds that’s the best example I can give.

I haven't-

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Why wouldn't Nessie be able to revert all of those monsters and everything Zagred did till the end of time via his illusory world, and just eventually incap via higher stamina? Hell, since he's "insane", I don't see what stops Nessie from just poisoning him and killing him. Additionally, what stops Nessie's multi-layered fear manip?

Illusory World requires a deep breath to activate. So since Nessie has already ****** up Zagred’s mind to act unreasonably and ESPECIALLY makes him very anxious and afraid. Nothing stops Zagred from attacking instantly with his Word Soul. In fear and with his magic he would say things related to fear like “Get Back” “Be crushed” (probably a wincon btw since Nessie has unknown LS idk), “Stop” (should counter attacks from Nessie that is hurting him), “No” etc etc.

 

[Rikimarox2]

Illusory World requires a deep breath to activate. So since Nessie has already ****** up Zagred’s mind to act unreasonably and ESPECIALLY makes him very anxious and afraid. Nothing stops Zagred from attacking instantly with his Word Soul. In fear and with his magic he would say things related to fear like “Get Back” “Be crushed” (probably a wincon btw since Nessie has unknown LS idk), “Stop” “No” etc etc.

Zagred is hundreds of meters in range, meanwhile Nessie is Hundreds of Kilometers, and deep breath isn't really that much of a problem??? Besides, if his body does get damaged or anything, he can simply resurrect via his concept.

Additionally, this seems like law manipulation??

If not, can you tell me what these does? I know the be crushed will probably just, well, crush Nessie, but what about everything else?

Also, you still didn't really tell me what stops Nessie's fear manip, which was able to effect Yeon-woo a bit, which effortlessly brushed off Boo's fear manip, which can make someone immediately submit due to fear.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

what is starting distance?

He can command things and reality warping specific stuff with his word magic.

 

[Rikimarox2]

SBA, as that is the case with Top strongest non-smurf list, so 4 kilometers. Additionally, this "command thing", what is it exactly? Body control or smth?

Additionally, since it's through speech, it should be at the same level as Nessie, which just needs one breath and that's it.

 

[Rikimarox2]

Also I feel like we're not on the same page on the poison part;

It doesn't need physical contact, the dude literally just used his causality stuff, and when the MC was teleported, he was poisoned.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

SBA, as that is the case with Top strongest non-smurf list, so 4 kilometers. Additionally, this "command thing", what is it exactly? Body control or smth?

Additionally, since it's through speech, it should be at the same level as Nessie, which just needs one breath and that's it.

Nessie needs a deep breath.

Command thing is just limited reality warping I guess.

range looks like a problem tho.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Also I feel like we're not on the same page on the poison part;

It doesn't need physical contact, the dude literally just used his causality stuff, and when the MC was teleported, he was poisoned.

Oh the poison part, Zagred can wish it away with a command “Stop” or something. The only think Zagred can’t do is say shit like “die” cuz nothing will happen.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

I don’t see enhanced senses on his page. If I missed it then help me point it out.

If it’s truly not there. How can he perform attacks from a few to hundreds of kilometers away without seeing his target first? I think the reason why max range on SBA is 4Km is cuz that’s baseline sight range, I mean a human can only see for 3 miles if nothing is obstructing the horizon. However SBA location definitely limits horizon so I doubt he will still be able to see his enemy over kilometers of range unless he flies to get a better view.

Zagred should be fine tho with his enhanced senses but his range is hundreds of meters still.

 

[Rikimarox2]

I don’t see enhanced senses on his page. If I missed it then help me point it out.

If it’s truly not there. How can he perform attacks from a few to hundreds of kilometers away without seeing his target first? I think the reason why max range on SBA is 4Km is cuz that’s baseline sight range, I mean a human can only see for 3 miles if nothing is obstructing the horizon. However SBA location definitely limits horizon so I doubt he will still be able to see his enemy over kilometers of range unless he flies to get a better view.

Zagred should be fine tho with his enhanced senses but his range is hundreds of meters still.

I'm not really sure how Enhanced senses even work here. Like, it should obviously work, but then again, the dude hasn't shown any sign of enhanced senses except for the fact of the MC running the **** away, and it could notice him, despite the MC being relativistic. Also, this thing isn't a human. Hell, no one knows what it is, but it was compared to a dinosaur. Still, if he can stop the poison, that doesn't mean he can recover, right? Like, before he could say stop, he would've already been damaged a bit, and Nessie could just repeatedly do it endlessly.

As for the hundreds of Kilometers, that's because he made an entire sea his territory, and could do anything in it. Hell, he could even rewind time. The only reason MC was able to win was because he bounded it with his chains (Which could bind even concepts), and blitzed him before he could take a breath.

And even then, the dude didn't die, and was stated that it could just go "lol regenerate", or just use its Illusory Change despite being destroyed.

Also I really should revise his LS, since it should be superior to the MC, who could withstand a pressure so strong that 100 people were instantly turned into blood due to it, and could lift parts of a 150 meters dragon.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

In my opinion I want this dude to keep fighting to be the 9th strongest non smurf 6-B based on the fact he’s more broken than Zagred. If Zagred could win here it will be due to match conditions and not based on abilities honestly. I just don’t feel like Zagred deserves a spot. I don’t think making a bracket style tournament is a good idea to choose the strongest. The weakest can win this tournament based off debating skills and very good matches where the opponent’s weaknesses just help the weak 6-B.

However if you don’t care about that I can continue this debate honestly. Otherwise I think Neisse should just advance l.

 

[Rikimarox2]

Well, tbh I don't really feel like debating more since I've already pretty much said everything about Nessie, almost.

So, as long as you're fine with Nessie advancing, then I'll assume this is a win for her and she'll get the 9th spot.