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Local Nazi Attempts to Impale Crazy Cat Lady with Spear

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DarkLK said:
ZERO7772 said:
and the different of 10 equal the different of infinity
Click to expand...
By the way, why exactly 10? Gudou Shiori with her endless army able to defeat someone who has 1 more taikyoku than she has?
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Difference of 10 make the stronger god literally invisible to the law of the weaker one, Shiroi can bring army of herself but isn't touching third hevaen for example while Reinhard lolstomp the guy

There isn't prove that the weaker god will get stomped if the different is 1 or lesser than 10 so for not making assumption we go by 10
 
Maybe it will not be stomped, but can a god with a lesser taikyoku value (the different is 1 or lesser than 10) harm a stronger god?
 
It's possible i think but again no proof on it but the different of 1 taikyoku is still big deal becasue as you know taikyoku is the source of all the existence, taikyoku is almost everything but not everything, becasue once the gods have the same value then comes the count of the souls each one have, Snake for example can fight Reinhard and all his legion all at once and laugh at them becasue he have billions upon billions of souls

Ren on the other hand got his ass kicked by reinhard despite having the same value
 
No cause Higher Value of Taikyoku (lesser than 10)=All attacks nullified.
 
No, Difference of 10 Taikyoku will lead to the superior Gawd utterly demolishing and stomping the lower one.

I don't think it's good to equalize their cosmology as it works completely different, Layers isn't Taikyoku or even Taikyoku value , they just don't mix up at all
 
So what I am seeing here is:

If a single increase in Taikyoku leads to a qualitative transcendence, Reinhard stomps via transcending Bern almost ten times over

If it needs to be an increase of 10 Taikyoku to obtain qualitative transcendence, Bern has a much better chance.

@ALRF, Taikyoku and layers aren't being equalised, seeing as one is the metaphysical "energy" source of everything, and the other is like a higher reality. What is being looked at is by how much each of them transcend a baseline 1-A
 
ALRF said:
No, Difference of 10 Taikyoku will lead to the superior Gawd utterly demolishing and stomping the lower one.
I don't think it's good to equalize their cosmology as it works completely different, Layers isn't Taikyoku or even Taikyoku value , they just don't mix up at all
Click to expand...

Nobody equalize them. We can just compare the power by taking baseline 1-A as the starting point. There is no particular difference how internal concepts are called in various fictions and in what ways superiority was achieved.

Although in this case there is really much in common. At the forefront are souls, desires, concepts/laws and some primordial thing.

Of course, we can refuse comparison at all, simply saying that this is impossible because of incompatibility. But it basically does not differ from the arguments of those people who in principle deny the possibility of comparing different fictional verses even such ones as HST.
 
Basline 1-A? wot? Why the heck are you people scaling them Baseline 1-A who are just above dimensions itself, Hadou/Gudou Gods are above that (as in above the Baseline 1-A) , so it's pointless.

Also speaking of Bern, she is considered an universe herself, Reinhard is above that as due to his Hadou nature, he will expand until he encompass all of creation (Multiverse)
 
ALRF said:
Basline 1-A? wot?
Click to expand...
Well, apparently the Throne and its transcendental realm can be taken as a reference point.

Bern, she is considered an universe herself, Reinhard is above that as due to his Hadou nature, he will expand until he encompass all of creation (Multiverse).

Her universe is a manifestation of power at her own level. It's not like some single universe in a multiverse. She does not need to expand, as the conceptual law she is omnipresent.

Monarch Laciel said:
If a single increase in Taikyoku leads to a qualitative transcendence, Reinhard stomps via transcending Bern almost ten times over
Click to expand...

Bern has not just 8 layers, but it is not known how many, but quite a lot and she can always get more. I already wrote about this above.
 
Okay guys, I'm sick of it. Perhaps TMR will want to answer something. Good Bay.
 
Reinhard is VASTLY above baseline 1-A, whilst cat lady is just above it or is baseline 1-A. along with having a plethora of hax I will give it to him also for the reasons above
 
ALRF said:
Also speaking of Bern, she is considered an universe herself, Reinhard is above that as due to his Hadou nature, he will expand until he encompass all of creation (Multiverse)
Click to expand...

Uh, we are way above universes and multiverses at this point, unless this was an example to show how strong Reinhard is compared to Bern.

But then again, what ability does Reinhard have that Bern cannot truly counter? Even only one ability would pretty much decide the fight in this case.
 
@Laciel I'm still voting Reinhard actually.

I really, really, reeeally doubt this whole argument about Bern doing the same thing Reinhard does with his legion and bringing whatever number of pieces she wants to the same level as herself based on the argument I previously used: If she could do something like that, I don't see why she wouldn't do so for the cats in the fight against Battler.

At some point, when Battler seemed to have the edge, Bernkastel was reminded of the feeling of pain and, on top of literally throwing up mid-battle, did the following:

1. Asked Featherine for help. To which Featherine kinda said "Yeah, not feeling like it, here, you can use my cats."

2. Used all the cats she could, they couldn't do a thing to Battler.

3. Later, as I already pointed out, Bern herself decides that you want something done, do it yourself and rekts Battler hard. I honestly don't see why she wouldn't have brought the cats to her level to destroy Battler if she actually could back at that point (She also specifically states something around the lines of wanting to end it all in an instant, even if fighting by the rules of the game board). If, there are occasions where Bern actually does make pieces reach her level, to the point I can compare their powers, and I'm forgetting them, I' can attribute the Battler ocasion to PIS or CIS. Otherwise,

I still didn't see any evidence of Bernkastel making any number of pieces become of her level. Unless I legit see this, my vote stays with Reinhard.
 
Furthermore, since qualitative superiority is a thing, and given what was presented in the thread so far by most debaters, I have to admit that Reinhard seems to have the edge in being higher above in the scale of 1-A than Bern herself happens to be.
 
This kind of reply doesn't matter for the actual debate at all. It is an hypothetical debate about two totally unrelated characters. If you're getting annoyed/upset to the point of "facepalming" or posting a reply that ultimately serves no purpose to the discussion because of something this trivial, then really, you should calm down a bit.

This sort of thing only causes unnecessary derail.
 
This kind of reply doesn't matter for the actual debate at all.

In a sense, this applies literally to almost all posts in this topic. In difference from HST and DBZ topics where almost all people quite well understand the various nuances, there is literally not a single enough competent debater here. Including me of course, because my knowledge about KSS is rather superficial.

Although okay, I'll probably write the last post.

I don't see why she wouldn't do so for the cats in the fight against Battler.

For the same reason why she just did not destroy Beatrice's territory with a fist blow.

You do not understand her motives. She does not pursue any rational goals. She just played the villain role in the story that was created for Ange. This role is necessary to bring the story to an end. And she just wanted to have fun. Regardless of the outcome.

Her avatar summoned 10 quadrillion cats in a sea of fragments. These cats were able to tear off Willard's hand so that he could not regenerate it despite being a meta-being.

Erika who can defeat Beatrice is also Bern's avatar.

And the army of her cats has already been summoned in the City of Books. These cats literally are parts of her. She used them against Lambda.

But all this does not matter for this topic. And of course this has nothing to do with my point.

I have to admit that Reinhard seems to have the edge in being higher above in the scale of 1-A than Bern herself happens to be.

So Reinhard has a Taikyoku value of 90. And someone who has reached Taiji with even the smallest Taikyoku value will still be 1-A, since it will be technically higher than the baseline 1-A/dimensionless thing such as the Throne. And the superiority of Taikyoku value (10 points at best) is an insurmountable difference. So Reinhard at least outperforms baseline 1-A by nine degrees of infinity or nine steps of qualitative difference.

Now about Bern. Within a single layer, the powers of beings can differ in several degrees of infinity. And there is a total difference between the layers. The lower layer worlds are fiction for the upper ones.

And even Beatrice's territory contains worlds of several meta-layers. Gameboard peak < purgatorio < witch's smoking room < cathedral < golden land. Something like that. Even I'm not sure about the exact structure. And the City of Books is above any territory. The whole story of Beatrice would be a small book there.

There will be quite a number of degress of infinity above the weakest being (baseline 1-A) from the lowest layer of the witch domain. More than 9. Although less than 90. If the superiority of 1 taikyoku value still can not be suppressed even with an infinite difference (this is very controversial but possible), then it may be possible for someone to think that Reinhard has a big advantage. It would be so if Bern was just another guest in the City of Books as Battler or Ange. But she is not. She's a Voyager. She gets as many power as she wants (power of witch is the height of the layer that she can reach) . And even if she does not want, she continues to evolve anyway. The evolution of Lambda was literally "been coming down over a thousand years, step by step, through the ladder". There are clearly a lot of steps, that is, a lot of layers. The only problem in rapid evolution is the danger of stumbling. Bern did not undergo a slow evolution like Lambda, she quickly caught up with her. That is, she already has the experience of quickly gaining power. Although the manifestations themselves on some layers are secondary things for the voyagers, who simply limit themselves to feel the "ground under feet".

This is not all that can be told, but perhaps it will be enough. Sorry if there are a lot of problems with my English or something else.
 
@Dark LK The moment you start going on about the debaters instead of the topic at hand, is the moment where the whole thread loses meaning, no matter where it goes. That, was my point.

But again, other than that first and totally unnecessary part (Which was an Ad Hominem), thank you for the rest of the reply which actually adresses the points that matter.

And I can't stress enough that I don't think there's any evidence suggesting that either the cats or even Erika, who - like you just said yourself, is but an avatar - are on a level where you can say they're just as strong as Bernkastel herself (meaning as above baseline 1-A as she is, to the point where any of them would be a match for Bern individually). Also where in those scans is it said that the cats are an extension of/part of/as strong as Bern? I see them all around her in the scan you linked, but there's nothing saying they are part of/extension of/as strong as Bern herself, much less each one of them.

On the qualitative superiority part, my knowledge on the Taikyoku system is admittedly not complete enough - I've seen some on this thread claim that a difference of one Taikyoku already gives an extreme boost in the 1-A scale, while others say it's a boost of ten, so I'd rather wait for the Masadaverse experts to clarify on this one.

Granted, the main point: This doesn't matter. Like, at all. 1-A ratings and mechanics vary a lot from one verse to another. It's like comparing water to air or trying to play chess on a board using cards instead of pieces - you can't scale layers in Umineko and Taikyoku from Masadaverse.

That's why we go by feats in 1-A matches.
 
They are not as strong as Bern herself, they are at the same layer as she is. Although Leviathans (mmany thousands of cats) are comparable to Bern's own manifestation. Erika, too, probably. Being on the same layer, they still outperform everything and anyone from the lower layers. In terms of quality levels, they are at the same level as Bern.

you can't scale layers in Umineko and Taikyoku from Masadaverse.

I just compare the power by taking the baseline 1-A as a reference point. Superiority over others 1As are the only "feats" that we can compare.

Granted, the main point: This doesn't matter. Like, at all.

I hope you do not mean that qualitative differences have no meaning in contrast to quantitative differences? Because if so, then it reminds me of glorious times, when only the number of multiverses had a meaning, in contrast to such nonsense as higher dimensions.
 
FateAlbane said:
Matthew Schroeder said:
I would recommend you to not try to equalize Dies Irae's cosmology and the Umineko cosmology. you will get nowhere.
Click to expand...
/\ This reply, basically.
Click to expand...

If you guys want to treat this in this way, Then I really in vain suggested to allow 1-A matches.
 
I think that DarkLk makes sense regarding this subject. This match can still work, although some things need to be equalized here.
 
There seemed to be a fair amount of debate over who was qualitatively superior.

I was waiting for it to finish
 
So let's sum up the topic where there is not even one debater who would be enough competent in matters relating to both verses

Arguments for the Nazi with a spear:

  • Hadou
  • Taikyoku
  • Hair
  • Fabulous
  • Better hax because... because!
  • Large legion of beings comparable with himself
Arguments for the Queen of the cats:

  • She has greater qualitative superiority over the baseline 1-A (obviously, it does not work, unlike the arguments for Reinhard)
 
You know what, just add my vote to Bern. DarkLK's points about her compared to Reinhard seems to make better sense here, seeing that each layer than Bern encompasses have several degrees of infinity in terms of difference in power (Compared to Reinhard where a difference in 10 Taikyou = infinite difference).

@Matt: Instead of making a rebuttal for DarkLK's points about this matter, you just post an image? Perhaps you should reconsider.
 
DarkLK has a point in that most of us are not able to properly evaluate the differences between 1-A beings, which is why these matchups used to be forbidden.

Perhaps we should close this thread, and consider it impossible to determine?

I would also appreciate if everybody please make an effort to treat DarkLK with respect. Without him we wouldn't even have a proper tiering system.
 
I have no problem with Matt. Unlike the guys who support the "reasons above" (I'm not talking about only this topic).
 
@Lina

I posted a comical image to express my reaction at the thread, which I think was quite poor in general, not just against DarkLK.
 
So, should we close this thread?
 
Most likely, everything is just gonna repeat itself if the thread goes on, so yeah... don't know if this should be added or not.
 
Probably not. Maybe we should forbid 1-A threads again? We simply do not have enough know-how to handle them.
 
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