Lizard match

[Imaginym]

Versus
Late Chapter 1, post-Jevil, pre-Fountain Sealing Dark World Susie. (So Susie should scale to 0.0012 Tons of TNT/5,020,800 joules - 9-B (Wall level).)
Both at Level 1 & 9-B. The Lizardfolk is of the Geckonid Subspecies & Level 1 in the Adept Class. (So the Geckonid should scale to 0.0019404721 tons of TNT/8,118,935.25254 Joules, Wall level.)
(AP/Durability difference of 1.61706008 times, in the Geckonid's favor, assuming Geckonids aren't considered to be less physically strong than other varieties of Lizardfolk. Which they may be, I think?)

Speed is currently UNEQUALIZED. (Because Susie scales to 70.05 m/s & 9-B D&D seems to scale to 1st Level Adventurers dodging arrows with an accepted Calculation of 37.31 m/s, thus, there is only a Speed gap of 1.87751273 in Susie's favor.)

Battle begins in Card Castle's Throne Room:

Current Vote Count:
Susie: 5 (@Lacku , @VegetaFan756 , @GodlyCharmander , @Livinmeme , @Peppersalt43 )
Geckonid: 0

 

[Lacku]

Looking at both profiles they're very comparable to each other aside from the AP and speed difference, however I'm kinda leaning towards Susie since her having comparable strength with greater speed would probably give her an edge in the fight.

 

[Imaginym]

Looking at both profiles they're very comparable to each other aside from the AP and speed difference, however I'm kinda leaning towards Susie since her having comparable strength with greater speed would probably give her an edge in the fight.

(I hope you didn't have to dig up the AP & Speed values when I posted them in the OP already.)
I guess roughly 1.6 times is comparable....

Should I Equalized Speed? Geckonids are more of a mobility-based Lizardfolk subspecies, AFAIK?

Spoiler: Stat blocks for the various Lizardfolk races.

https://cdn.**********.com/attachments/845968437020065862/927102836100169728/unknown.png

Spoiler: Scan about Geckonids in specific.

https://cdn.**********.com/attachments/845968437020065862/927103027217850408/unknown.png

It may also have some utility, thanks to Sanctuary & MAYBE Summon Familiar?

There's also the racial abilities to take into account:

Spoiler: Lizardfolk Racial Abilities

Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Weapon Mastery (Lizardfolk are naturally proficient with a variety of simple weapons [Gauntlets, Daggers, Sickles, Clubs, Maces, Quarterstaffs, Spears, Crossbows, Darts, Shortbows, Javelins, Slings], and shields), Martial Arts (All Lizardfolk are naturally proficient in unarmed combat), Enhanced Senses (Lizardfolk possess Darkvision, allowing them to see in dim light within their field of view as if it were bright light, and in darkness as if it were dim light.), Stealth Mastery (Lizardfolk are highly skilled in stealth, and all members of the species have a natural bonus to Stealth), Acrobatics (All Lizardfolk have a natural bonus to Balance[3]), Camouflage, Preparation, Natural Weaponry (Teeth, Claws), Berserk Mode (Via Hungry Jaws), Healing (Via Hungry Jaws)

& also the Geckonid Subspecies Abilities:
All base abilities plus Surface Scaling, Camouflage, Body Control (Can alter the color of their bodies at will), and Enhanced Senses (Can see invisible beings and objects)

Which does make me wonder if the relatively dark, although mostly open area of Card Castle is fair for this matchup.
Amusingly, the Geckonid Subspecies Abilities plus the Adept Class Abilities giving Non-Physical Interaction, among other things, means, due to Souls in D&D typically not being invisible unless the Soul is on another plane, the Geckonid in this match likely could not only see, but interact with the SOUL, if it were present.

 

[VegetaFan756]

I think Susie will win due to Rude Buster and stuff honestly.

 

[Imaginym]

I think Susie will win due to Rude Buster and stuff honestly.

While I dislike the vague, & non-specifying use of "and stuff", I should count your vote.
Lacku's as well.

Also, does anyone think I should Equalize Speed, given that, although the Geckonid is about 1.61 times stronger, in unequalized speed, Susie is about 1.87 times faster?
(Though, the Geckonid also has Stealth Mastery, Camouflage, & Darkvision.)
It can also heal itself by biting Susie while in a frenzy, via Hungry Jaws.

 

[VegetaFan756]

Yes, that is a good point.
Due to Susie’s already powerful attacks, and the fact Rude Buster is considerably stronger than her normal attacks, along with Red Buster (might not be able to use it in this fight) being stronger than Rude Buster, I feel like the damage output will be greater than the Gecknoid’s.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Uhhh, does the lizard resist Soul Hax? Cuz otherwise the AP difference is going to be somewhat irrelevant.

 

[Imaginym]

Yes, that is a good point.
Due to Susie’s already powerful attacks, and the fact Rude Buster is considerably stronger than her normal attacks, along with Red Buster (might not be able to use it in this fight) being stronger than Rude Buster, I feel like the damage output will be greater than the Gecknoid’s.

Equalize Speed, then?

 

[VegetaFan756]

i mean the damage output is still higher regardless

 

[Lacku]

Just elaborating on my vote, whether or not were equalising speed personally I still believe Susie would win due to her soul hax and also her ability to put the lizard to sleep through hypnosis

 

[Imaginym]

Uhhh, does the lizard resist Soul Hax? Cuz otherwise the AP difference is going to be somewhat irrelevant.

Spoiler: Stuff about Resistances & Saving Throws that I spent all day figuring out

The Dungeons and Dragons Resistances Blog

vsbattles.fandom.com

• Soul Manipulation: Can resist the Devourer's ability to eat and absorb the life essence (proven to be equatable to the soul via the Monster Manual 3.5e page on the same creature). The same abilities don't cause instant death when used by the Barghest, who also devours both body and soul, though this is not resistable through Fortitude.

However, D&D Resistances are based off of Saving Throws; Any creature can do what the game calls Taking 10, where they take their average, & add applicable bonuses. Resisting the Devourer's abilities requires a Fortitude Saving Throw of 19.

THIS IS WHY I LINKED THE IMAGE OF THE LIZARDFOLK ABILITY SCORES EARLIER, & AM RE-LINKING IT NOW.
https://cdn.**********.com/attachments/846835158480978011/927637005599379476/unknown.png
Basically, the Geckonid Subspecies of the Lizardfolk Race has premade stat ranges with defined Minimums & Maximums for Ability Scores. (Ability Scores are STR, DEX, CON, INT, WIS, CHA.)
Above 11, every two points is a range which is 1 point higher than the previous; See the chart in the Ability Scores section:

The Basics :: d20srd.org

Thus, an Ability Score of 12 to 13 is +1, an Ability Score of 14 to 15 is +2, an Ability Score of 16 to 17 is +3, & so on.
Likewise for values below 10: 8 to 9 is -1, 6 to 7 is -2, 5 to 4 is -3, & 2 to 3 is -4.

Mr. Bambu/dndresistances

vsbattles.fandom.com

For D&D Soul Manipulation, I have to check: Priest's Spell Compendium Volume 1, Pages 69, 81, 105, 188, 309 & Priest's Spell Compendium Volume 2, Pages 309, 329, 361 & 374. Tome of Magic Page 209, twice.

From what I understand, different things to resist in D&D tend to follow the Saving Throw rules of their edition. Ex: PSCV1 & PSCV2 are for Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, AKA, 2E, so they use the rules from that edition.

According to the Advanced Dungeons & Dragons Dungeons Master's Guide:
Most monsters save as fighters, except:
1. Those with abilities of other character classes gain the benefit of
the most favorable saving throw score, i.e. be it cleric or magic-user or thief.
Includes Assassins and Monks.
2. Those with no real offensive fighting capabilities save according to
their area of ability- cleric, magic-user, thief, etc.

According to those conditions, the Adept Class likely aligns with the Magic-User, which, at Level 1, has a Saving Throw Vs. Spell of 12.... Well it means the Geckonid, considering VSBW uses rolling Take 10 plus modifiers (Which 2E doesn't have.) means the Geckonid always rolls a 10, & from the listed examples in the blogs, it would fail the save against all of them, due to being only Level 1, & thus, such Saving Throws are too difficult . (Although, if it were an Evil or Undead Cleric facing Great Circle, it could make THAT Save, but it is not, lol.)

However, based on the Devourer's Energy Drain & Trap Essence Abilities, as well as Syllable of Enervation, it seems like, in my experience, that attacks that affect the Soul in D&D, possibly including Positive & Negative Energy based attacks (Life Essence often being treated as Soul, the energies affecting the Soul, Negative Energy & Negative Levels being associated with Loss of Soul, etc.), being assigned Fortitude Saves, a good Fortitude Save may offer some Soul Manipulation Resistance.

At its best, the Geckonid would have 16 Constitution, which is +3. At its worst, it would have 3 CON, which is -4, lol.
If Will Saves are relevant to Soul Manipulation, the Geckonid's Wisdom score range is 3 to 17, meaning +3 at best, -4 at worst.

Still, of the things I could find cited for Soul Manipulation, the Level 1 Geckonid Adept such as that used in this match, generally fails the saves.

So, the Geckonid has.... Some Soul Manipulation Resistance? There's probably lower levels of Soul Manipulation in D&D that it can successfully Resist, I'm just not sure what they are.

More concretely however is that Soul Manipulation might not work that well; Geckonid's can see Invisible things, Souls included, & as an Adept, it has Non-Physical Interaction.

Which would mean it would be able to see the SOUL, as well as any Magic/Soul Manipulation Axes Susie might use (Like she did against Kris & Ralsei.) or the blasts of her Rude Buster, if those weren't visible to begin with.

Lizardfolk Standard Equipment lists it as: Dagger, Spiked Shield, Heavy Club, Javelins, Barbed Darts. (Though, since the Standard Equipment doesn't distinguish for Subspecies, I'm not sure if it's applicable.) Still, they might be useful for blocking, due to NPI.

It could also attack Susie at range unless Susie wants to try using her range without her axe, by using Heat Metal.

Sanctuary also gives it a ranged Mind Manipulation option that deters the target from making attacks or using harmfull spells against a target. (Ex: Against the Geckonid itself.)

& since the Geckonid is about 1.61 times stronger with NPI & seemingly some capacity for Soul Manipulation Resistance, it should be able to block decently.
Stamina: Superhuman, comparable to adventurers who can endure impalement, loss of limb, and other extreme forms of punishment and still manage to fight and press on. Can hold their breath for up to fifteen minutes.
If that Stamina applies to this Subspecies (Geckonids are a Subspecies on the page that uses it, but the Stamina isn't Keyed.), that would also help its survivability.


Sorry about the long post & long wait, all. It took me a while to learn about D&D Resistances, & I'm still doubtful my learning is complete.
Hopefully I'm not being too unpleasant.

 

[Peppersalt43]

Bumping for interest

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I am unable to match @Imaginym's insight and research, thus, I will agree with what they said.

As for the match, I'd like to see some winconditions for the lizard, because due to Susie's teleported hits, and damage boosted attacks (such as rude buster), I'd say she might take this.

 

[Imaginym]

I am unable to match @Imaginym's insight and research, thus, I will agree with what they said.

As for the match, I'd like to see some winconditions for the lizard, because due to Susie's teleported hits, and damage boosted attacks (such as rude buster), I'd say she might take this.

"Teleported hits"?
The Geckonid's win conditions might bethe 1.61~ times AP/Durability advantage, having Stealth Mastery, Camouflage, Surface Scaling, & Darkvision. Unsure if it has the Lizardfolk equipment, but a Dagger, Spiked Shield, Heavy Club, Javelins, Barbed Darts can be useful.

Especially since it has NPI & can see Invisible things, so the Geckonid's well-suited if the SOUL is involved.

I'm not sure of the values, but the Geckonid might be close to Susie in LS:
Class 5 (Is able to swing her large ax with one hand, which Ralsei said was too heavy for him. Stronger than Kris who can tear off a prison shackle)
Class 1 to Class 5 (Physically weaker Lizardfolk such as Dusk Fangs can push up to 580 to 790 kg. Average Lizardfolk can push and drag up to 680 to 900 kg. Renders can push and drag up to 1040 kg. Physically stronger Lizardfolk such as Blackscales, Agrutha, Crocodilians, and Shadowscales can push and drag up to 1580 kg. Shadowscale Marauders can push and drag up to 2086 kg.)

It might have Soul Manipulation Resistance, but I'm uncertain about the potency, which may be relevant against Rude Buster, & if Susie uses Soul-attacking stuff like against Kris. (& even if they're other abilities, it may still be able to Resist due to D&D's profilic Resistances.)

The Geckonid can also use Sanctuary, which is Mind Manipulation that forces the target to make a Will Save when trying to attack a certain target.
& Heat Metal can be used at range to rapidly heat metal (Such as Susie's axe, or maybe other metal on her person? Are her cuffs metal?) to inflict damage.
It can also summon a Familiar.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

"Teleported hits"?

You know what I am referring to. Susie can hit a target with a physical blow even though she is several meters away, the physical attack basically teleports onto the target.

The Geckonid's win conditions might bethe 1.61~ times AP/Durability advantage, having Stealth Mastery, Camouflage, Surface Scaling, & Darkvision. Unsure if it has the Lizardfolk equipment, but a Dagger, Spiked Shield, Heavy Club, Javelins, Barbed Darts can be useful.

Especially since it has NPI & can see Invisible things, so the Geckonid's well-suited if the SOUL is involved.

Camouflage and Stealth can be a problem here. Susie is not quite cunning to play around this.

I'm not sure of the values, but the Geckonid might be close to Susie in LS:
Class 5 (Is able to swing her large ax with one hand, which Ralsei said was too heavy for him. Stronger than Kris who can tear off a prison shackle)
Class 1 to Class 5 (Physically weaker Lizardfolk such as Dusk Fangs can push up to 580 to 790 kg. Average Lizardfolk can push and drag up to 680 to 900 kg. Renders can push and drag up to 1040 kg. Physically stronger Lizardfolk such as Blackscales, Agrutha, Crocodilians, and Shadowscales can push and drag up to 1580 kg. Shadowscale Marauders can push and drag up to 2086 kg.)

Gecko would scale to the average lizardfolk, not the stronger ones, right? Even the top tiers D&D lizards are dwarfed by Kris in LS. (3528.22kg)

It might have Soul Manipulation Resistance, but I'm uncertain about the potency, which may be relevant against Rude Buster, & if Susie uses Soul-attacking stuff like against Kris. (& even if they're other abilities, it may still be able to Resist due to D&D's profilic Resistances.)

The Geckonid can also use Sanctuary, which is Mind Manipulation that forces the target to make a Will Save when trying to attack a certain target.
& Heat Metal can be used at range to rapidly heat metal (Such as Susie's axe, or maybe other metal on her person? Are her cuffs metal?) to inflict damage.
It can also summon a Familiar.

Susie's Axe doesn't really have a confirmed material.

 

[Imaginym]

You know what I am referring to. Susie can hit a target with a physical blow even though she is several meters away, the physical attack basically teleports onto the target.

I probably did know, but I think I forgot at the time.

Camouflage and Stealth can be a problem here. Susie is not quite cunning to play around this.

As well as Surface Scaling. (Plus, it might see better in the dark than her. due to Darkvision.)

Gecko would scale to the average lizardfolk, not the stronger ones, right?

I think so? It's been a bit since I checked what I read of them, so it may be worth going over the text & stat blocks, but Geckonids certainly don't seem like the most... burly sort of lizardfolk subspecies.

Even the top tiers D&D lizards are dwarfed by Kris in LS. (3528.22kg)

That value applies to Late Chapter 1 Kris, right?

Susie's Axe doesn't really have a confirmed material.

Would it not be reasonable to assume it's metal, though? (Plus, there are several different axes she could be using.)

Also, it may also be worth checking the info about the Geckonid (I know there was a fair bit of writing in at least 1 image I posted above, & probably more linked on the profile.), as well as the Intelligence section to get an idea of its behaviour, but I'm a bit sleepy/lazy to go over that AtM, in part because the Lizardfolk has an extensive (If, thankfully, segmented) Intelligence section.
Not sure if Adept Class gives any bonuses to INT score.

 

[Peppersalt43]

Bump, let's continue the discussion

 

[Peppersalt43]

Bump

 

[Imaginym]

I wonder where @GodlyCharmander has been....

 

[Peppersalt43]

Bump

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I mean, I feel like this match's not really going anywhere.

Susie has the speed advantage, and the LS advantage. She does grab and hold in-character, thus she should be able to do that if she feels outmatched in strength.

She can pin her enemy down, and use her axe. She can also use her ranged instant attacks to her advantage given the speed, thus, I think she is most likely to win.

I vote Susie.

 

[Imaginym]

I mean, I feel like this match's not really going anywhere.

Susie has the speed advantage, and the LS advantage. She does grab and hold in-character, thus she should be able to do that if she feels outmatched in strength.

She can pin her enemy down, and use her axe. She can also use her ranged instant attacks to her advantage given the speed, thus, I think she is most likely to win.

I vote Susie.

Fair, though I feel inclined to mention Sanctuary also gives it a ranged Mind Manipulation option that deters the target from making attacks or using harmfull spells against a target. (Ex: Against the Geckonid itself.), which the Geckonid could use to hinder Susie grappling.
Plus, the Geckonid has 1.6 AP advantage. If Susie grapples it, what if it starts hitting or stabbing her with a weapon, or if she restrains its arms, holding her in place, kicking her? There isn't much room to dodge when you're holding your opponent by the collar or by the arms.
& the Axe can be a liability if it's metal, due to Heat Metal.
Ranged attacks are helpful with a Speed advantage, which the Geckonid doesn't have much to help against except Stealth Mastery & Camouflage. Although, it could probably use its NPI to block projectiles with weapons, even if it might not do so consistently with Susie being about 1.8x faster.

Sorry if you mind me continuing this debate in this way.
Thanks for voting. Vote counted, & added to the OP, regardless of my own stance(s).

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Fair, though I feel inclined to mention Sanctuary also gives it a ranged Mind Manipulation option that deters the target from making attacks or using harmfull spells against a target. (Ex: Against the Geckonid itself.), which the Geckonid could use to hinder Susie grappling.
Plus, the Geckonid has 1.6 AP advantage. If Susie grapples it, what if it starts hitting or stabbing her with a weapon, or if she restrains its arms, holding her in place, kicking her? There isn't much room to dodge when you're holding your opponent by the collar or by the arms.
& the Axe can be a liability if it's metal, due to Heat Metal.
Ranged attacks are helpful with a Speed advantage, which the Geckonid doesn't have much to help against except Stealth Mastery & Camouflage. Although, it could probably use its NPI to block projectiles with weapons, even if it might not do so consistently with Susie being about 1.8x faster.

Sorry if you mind me continuing this debate in this way.
Thanks for voting. Vote counted, & added to the OP, regardless of my own stance(s).

Susie seems to have a thing for strangling, would Geckoid gasp for air?

 

[Imaginym]

Susie seems to have a thing for strangling, would Geckoid gasp for air?

Geckonid, you mean. (Also, it's a (sub)race, not the name of an individual. Pardon my pedantry, please.)
Also, I mostly only recall Susie doing grab & lift. I forget: When did she do strangling?

Anyway, I would assume, if you did try to strangle someone by the neck, they, being that they're literally being harmed from lack of air, would try to gasp for more air; The alternative is a serious risk of harm/death, after all.
But if you're strangling someone & have them in their grip, I'd assume they might also try hitting you, be that with a weapon they have on hand, or maybe with their arms or legs, if those are free.

Also, I just noticed that the link to the scan about Sanctuary is broken, at least on my end. Stupid Wikia/Fandom.

Spoiler: Large Image

https://cdn.**********.com/attachments/556299665885233163/934762275464699914/latest.png

Scan of it that can actually be read, although I don't like using Discord for such things.

 

[Peppersalt43]

Bump, lets continue the discussion

 

[frissen]

@Imaginym What DC would the Sanctuary save be in this case?

 

[Imaginym]

@Imaginym What DC would the Sanctuary save be in this case?

From what I've read (Ex: https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/sanctuary.htm ), Sanctuary is negated by a successful Wisdom Save. (Although I think that initial Save would be by the Geckonid itself, since it's targeting itself with Sanctuary; The further Saves Sanctuary calls are the ones Susie would have to do or have her attacks stopped by Sanctuary.)

Spell Descriptions :: d20srd.org

Saving Throw Difficulty Class​

A saving throw against your spell has a DC of 10 + the level of the spell + your bonus for the relevant ability (Intelligence for a wizard, Charisma for a sorcerer or bard, or Wisdom for a cleric, druid, paladin, or ranger). A spell’s level can vary depending on your class. Always use the spell level applicable to your class.

Adept :: d20srd.org

I'm unsure if the Adept has a bonus for the relevant ability (IDK if the +2 Will Save a 1st Level Adept would get according to the chart on the page is a relevant value.), but I can determine the other values.
It's 10, + Sanctuary's Spell Level, which is 1. So it's at least 11. Maybe 13, or maybe still just 11 depending on if the Adept Class has a bonus for the relevant ability.

So from what I understand, she'd probably need a Resistance to successfully attack the Geckonid while it has Sanctuary active on itself.
Also, if we're using the most recent version of the Spell (5th Edition's), then it should last about 1 minute.

 

[Peppersalt43]

Why do people keep disappearing every time @Imaginym responds

Come on, finish this. I want to vote safely

 

[Spinoirr]

a quick thing to note, lizardfolk can hold their breath for upwards of 15 minutes, so strangling is gonna be pretty hard to do

Lizardfolk

Hold Breath. The lizardfolk can hold its breath for 15 minutes. Multiattack. The lizardfolk makes two melee attacks, each one with a diff...

www.dndbeyond.com

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Why do people keep disappearing every time @Imaginym responds

Come on, finish this. I want to vote safely

He is too powerful! We cannot stand next to him for too long, or we too, will be destroyed!

 

[Peppersalt43]

Bump once more

 

[Peppersalt43]

Bump

 

[Peppersalt43]

bump

 

[Livinmeme]

Dragon lizard thing FRA (expy of yusuke FRA)

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Dragon lizard thing FRA (expy of yusuke FRA)

... Gonna have to be a little more specific.

 

[Livinmeme]

Susie fra

 

[Imaginym]

Susie fra

Vote counted, & noted in the opening post.

 

[Peppersalt43]

Kris, where the hell are we FRA

 

[Imaginym]

Kris, where the hell are we FRA

Vote counted & noted in the opening post.
(Truthfully, I'm skeptical how Susie beats Sanctuary, but she's about 1.88x times faster, & has a LS advantage she'd, ostensibly, be in-character to use here.)

 

[Peppersalt43]

Bump