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Limits for the Royal Knight Hax. And Saint Seiya Miracles.

Dragonmasterxyz

VS Battles
FC/OC VS Battles
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Okay I've noticed Digimon doesn't have the hugest fanbase here and thus many abilities and hax are obviously questioned. The abilities we will look at are the Royal Knights. Jesmon's OS Generics, Magnamon's Miracle Creation, Alphamon's AlphaInforce and Omegamon's OmegaInforce.

Here's what these abilities do.

Miracle Creation: Due to the properties of the Digi-Egg of Miracles, Magnamon has a miraculous ability to overcome any predicament placed before him, thus enacting a "miracle" as the origin his power implies. As a result, a series of coincidences will occur that will guarantee Magnamon's victory no matter what odds he faces.

OS Generics: Temporarily rewrites its own data to perform actions that transcend the laws of nature. This allows him to rewrite his data so that any attack that is dealt to him becomes 0. It also can boost his stats to surpass that of his opponent.

Alpha InForce: Alphamon has access to this legendary Overdrive ability, allowing him to instantly replay the elapsed battle by manipulating causality. Thus he is able to return the state of the battle back to the beginning should he somehow be defeated and allowing him to learn from his previous battles. He is also able to use this ability offensively, instantly replaying his first attack an infinite number of times and target an infinite number of points in space in an instant, making it appear as if he felled his opponent in one blow and rendering his attacks virtually impossible to dodge.

Omega Inforce: It's Omegamon's exclusive innate Override Sequence that grants him great power and lets him see the immediate future. It also lends him unlimited stamina, allowing him to fight at peak capacity no matter what. This ability is enhanced upon receiving the X-Antibody, allowing him to always stay one step ahead of the opponent. It is this ability that makes Omegamon X a theoretically insurmountable opponent.

Miracles and Burning Cosmo in SS has me confused. many people see it as a Hax nullifyer to which I disagee. Don't get me wrong I like the series but some things seem off. For example Seiya's last attack on Hades. Was that just a last minute attack and does that count as a permament stat buff? Also with how that works shouldn't abilities like OS Generics and Miracle Creation have a similar allowance?

Now my proposal is that OS Generics and the other abilities should only work on characters in their tier range. So OS Generics should not work on a tier 2 character like Hades for example. However, any character High 3-A or below should be liable to get hit effected by the skill.

What do you guys think?
 
I'd say it's stronger since Magnamon's work on a Universal(Multiversal depending on media) level.
 
Via feats absolutely but what about lore? Im pretty sure Victini is considered the concept of Victory in the pokemonverse, also is listed to have Victory Embodiment too.
 
Not the most knowledable saint seiya guy but miracles from what i understand basically allow characters to do things that normally they shouldn't be able to and it's only the good guys who can do it from what i heard, it's apparalently like the powerups characters get in other shounen that somehow allows them to beat the villain except in saint seiya it's an actually inverse thing, miracles are rare but apparalently seiya in assassin g can spam miracles all the time, someone with more saint seiya knowledge can explain this better.
 
Dragonmasterxyz said:
^How do you feel about the digimon side of things?
I don't know much of anything about digimon but abilities should be limited by what they have been shown to work on is what i think.
 
Well, I'm writing a page to explain the Royal Knights' power and their hax right now, but due to the fact that these powers are rarely used in-story (since they would break it in half), we can't really impose any upper limits on them.
 
^That is true. But many people who don't know the series will immediately call it an NLF or Hyperbole when in fact the royal knights are made to be very overpowered....
 
Cosmo, and by extension, Miracles, are essentially a plot power, like Spiral Energy in TTGL, Determination in Undertale or Love Power in Pretty Cure. They allow for a user to be able to do the impossible, and boost the probability of winning against a superior foe. This allows for numerous capabilities, such as boosting of strength and speed, gaining resistance to hax, gaining hax, increasing the chance of landing an attack, bypassing his opponent's hax, etc. The potential of Miracles is infinite (literally as described in Assassin).

Here's some examples of what it can do: Seiya becoming strong enough to chop off Aldebaran's gold cloth horn, Seiya becoming fast enough to dodge Aiolia's Lightning Plasma, Shura becoming fast enough to overcome Roland's precognition, Seiya bypassing the damage nullification and redirection of Poseidon's Divine Cosmo, Hyoga freezing a time stop, Shiryu breaking Sigurd's cloth, Seiya shattering Hades' surplice, Seiya recovering his strength from Hades' Divine Curse, Seiya recovering from a coma, Shura cutting apart Saga's Another Dimension, and much, much more.
 
So pretty much Miracles can allow 3-A Seiya to overcome a tier 2-C being, or a tier 2-B or a tier 2-A? So he can overcome a tier 2-A's hax via miracles? We need to determine a limit here.
 
Dragonmasterxyz said:
So pretty much Miracles can allow 3-A Seiya to overcome a tier 2-C being, or a tier 2-B or a tier 2-A? So he can overcome a tier 2-A's hax via miracles? We need to determine a limit here.
No there are clear limits to it even by working a miracle seiya didn't leave any lasting damage to hades. Again i am no saint seiya expert but even by working miracles i don't think that seiya could beat hades or even athena, the gods seem a bit unreachable, though i could be wrong.
 
Celestial Pegasus said:
Dragonmasterxyz said:
So pretty much Miracles can allow 3-A Seiya to overcome a tier 2-C being, or a tier 2-B or a tier 2-A? So he can overcome a tier 2-A's hax via miracles? We need to determine a limit here.
No there are clear limits to it even by working a miracle seiya didn't leave any lasting damage to hades. Again i am no saint seiya expert but even by working miracles i don't think that seiya could beat hades or even athena, the gods seem a bit unreachable, though i could be wrong.
Nah, Seiya has been stated to have the potential to defeat the Gods (and any Saint really). You just need a very big will since it's will based:

http://img.bato.to/comics/2016/06/10/s/read575b04e332bf0/img000011.jpg

http://img.bato.to/comics/2016/06/10/s/read575b04e332bf0/img000012.jpg
 
@Tivanenk Hmm intersting so they have infinite potential though it's will based, though that doesn't make them literally infinite just have the potential to do that though what level of infinite are we talking about here? Are we talking about being infinite in a 3-D scale seeing as yea looking at it that way seiya is infinite since he is high 3-A though he is stated to have the potential to surpass the gods and from what i undrstand they are 4-D but that's just the potential though and even then it would still only be infinite by a 4-D scale. By the way as any saint actually beaten a god by working miracles so far i am still having a hard time imagining seiya beating hades, side note damn that artwork is so colorful and flasy.
 
Celestial Pegasus said:
@Tivanenk Hmm intersting so they have infinite potential though it's will based, though that doesn't make them literally infinite just have the potential to do that though what level of infinite are we talking about here? Are we talking about being infinite in a 3-D scale seeing as yea looking at it that way seiya is infinite since he is high 3-A though he is stated to have the potential to surpass the gods and from what i undrstand they are 4-D but that's just the potential though and even then it would still only be infinite by a 4-D scale. By the way as any saint actually beaten a god by working miracles so far i am still having a hard time imagining seiya beating hades, side note damn that artwork is so colorful and flasy.
Regulus, Seiya (from Overture), and Tenma all surpassed the traditional 3-D scale (though Tenma is a demigod), so Cosmo most likely transcends the traditional 3-D scale. At least, if a Saint can manage to use the 9th sense, they'll be able to surpass the traditional 3-D scale and arrive at the realm of the gods really. So their potential is vast, maybe even as vast as Cosmo which is at least on a 5-D scale if not higher.
 
If we count movies, Saint seiya miracles have limits, since Seiya lost to Apollo in one of the movies... Even when he burned his cosmo to the limit and beyond. He lost and got his memories erased
 
Like Reppu said earlier, the biggest issue with the majority of Digimon hax is its never really shown in the manga, anime or even video games (to my knowledge) so we never see how it really works. Sure, Digimon has a fairly extensive lore that details the abilities in enough detail where we know about the move and its mechanics but not the limits of it.

Plus, the lore can be really weird sometimes like how the lore for Wendigomon implies its Universal yet NEVER showing that level of power but thats a discussion for another time.
 
Well we now have that blog in which almost everyone seems to agree. So we've defined the RK's limit. Now what about the SS limit?
 
^It makes no sense that it happened like that. Seiya was doing absolutely nothing to Hades. For him to suddenly do "damage" to him would mean it was a type of miracle.
 
The combined force of all god saints attacking simultaneously also hurt him.Seiya also stopped his sword.Hades is above him but infinitely is some fan fiction made up in this wiki obd and acf have seiya at low 2-C
 
@Akuto

The OBD only has Seiya as Low 2-C during the Overture movie IIRC.

EDIT: Just checked, the OBD has God Cloth Seiya as "At least Multi-Galaxy level+, possibly Universe level" and Overture Seiya only being Universe level+ in durability, they also seem to have Bronze Cloth Seiya as Galaxy level and MFTL+, along with Gemini Saga being "At least Multi-Galaxy level+" from a statement that doesn't actually exist (Him being the strongest Saint to serve under Athena).
 
OBD is stupid with Saint Seiya.

They use a statement from Loki, said in a Non-canon Anime, to scale Saga to every Saint in the franchise including a Fusion.

They think Saga's GE is Universe level.

They think Gold Saints are MFTL+ at base.

They think 8th Sense doesn't make you stronger;
 
Because he caused Hades"s immeasurable pain or whatever Hades said it wasn't the only thing he did to Hades:

>Caught his sword

>Damaged him along with the others

Tenma was more of a 1 hit wonder seiya was shown being dominated but not completely
 
We might be in need for a revision thread since it seems some things are still confusing...

Anyway Akuto and Tivanenk how do you feel about the digimon side of things? I would recommend reading the blog Reppu made as well.
 
So the only thing to clear up is the Saint Seiya problems. I'm willing to make a revision thread since there seems to be some disagreements about the current stats. Just tell me what problems you all have with the concerns that involve the 2 Hades fights?
 
Either way I'd like to know where does the High 3-A seiya nonesense even come from?

It's obviously supposed to reference an event in which seiya burned his Cosmo but there is no High 3-A event...

Infact there is no one in SS who's High 3-A in AP or Dura it's random af
 
Didn't Tenma only match Alone which was Hades' host body? Or did he turn into a true body? I really need to finish Lost Canvas.
 
Tivanenk said:
Didn't Tenma only match Alone which was Hades' host body? Or did he turn into a true body? I really need to finish Lost Canvas.
Punched thru his host body but still his surplice too
 
Dragonmasterxyz said:
So the problem is the High 3-A stats? So what do you suggest the change be?
Seiyas way weaker than Hades but to have caught his sword and shrugged off some attacks he should still have been in the low 2-C range as ACF rates him
 
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