Light speed Haku (Naruto)

[DuDE01010]

Haku should be light speed with his ice mirrors.

• He travels by reflecting off the mirrors, meaning he's moving at light speed.
  • 1, 2, 3
• Stated to be light speed movement twice in the databook.
• In the Naruto dub, Haku states the mirrors allows him to be transported at light speed. 0:40

What about Sasuke and Naruto reacting to him?
Haku has two ways of moving between mirrors

1. He can either transport to another mirror via reflection: This is light speed.
2. Or he can physically move himself out of one mirror and into another one: This is not light speed.

Additional
Both Sasuke and Naruto were getting blitzed hard, with Haku even stating he sees them moving in slow motion.
A combination of Haku running out of Chakra and Sasuke using his Sharingan allows him to react

• 1, 2, 3

Sasuke and Naruto do not scale to Haku's light speed feat and therefore do not cause any scaling issues.

Proposed rating
Speed of Light via ice mirrors (Demonic Mirroring Ice Crystals uses the mirror's reflection to transport the user)

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I see no issues with this, looks good to me.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Finally. 2 statements from the Databook + the technique itself + anime dub. I agree.

 

[Arcker123]

Following

 

[LordTracer]

I also agree.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Agree, it’s about time, it being an outlier is completely dishonest.

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

Following, and leaning towards agreeing.

 

[Voltairee]

Finally we have more evidences lol. So i agree

 

[Purgy]

Changed my opinion and now fully agree with the OP

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

L

 

[StrawHatArslan]

Haku's profile already covers this;

• Kid Sharingan Sasuke was able to react to and perceive his movements and even reach Naruto before Haku, completely undeniable, and pre-Sharingan Sasuke was actually beginning to react to him.
• Sasuke without the Sharingan was initially getting blitzed, even before activating it he was beginning to react and after activating the Sharingan he was both able to react and intercept Haku's attacks.
• Haku literally states he can see Naruto/Sasuke in slow motion because of the speed he travels at via reflection, meaning Haku must have lightspeed reactions and yet Haku was completely incapable of reacting to KN0 Naruto, so this being accepted would make KN0 Naruto lightspeed at the bare minimum and most likely Sasuke as well.

Every single scan you use to justify Sasuke being blitzed is Pre-Sharingan Sasuke, and even that Sasuke was managing to react towards the end.

The anime isn't canon and it was never stated in the manga.

So overall, I disagree, there's no new evidence since the half a dozen other times this was rejected and I think this deserves a discussion rule at this point.

Damn... that was a lot lol
I agree with purgy.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

If it's already noted on the profile, it'd be redundant to add it again.

 

[joshpiece]

Haku's profile already covers this;

• Kid Sharingan Sasuke was able to react to and perceive his movements and even reach Naruto before Haku, completely undeniable, and pre-Sharingan Sasuke was actually beginning to react to him.
• Sasuke without the Sharingan was initially getting blitzed, even before activating it he was beginning to react and after activating the Sharingan he was both able to react and intercept Haku's attacks.
• Haku literally states he can see Naruto/Sasuke in slow motion because of the speed he travels at via reflection, meaning Haku must have lightspeed reactions and yet Haku was completely incapable of reacting to KN0 Naruto, so this being accepted would make KN0 Naruto lightspeed at the bare minimum and most likely Sasuke as well.

Every single scan you use to justify Sasuke being blitzed is Pre-Sharingan Sasuke, and even that Sasuke was managing to react towards the end.

The anime isn't canon and it was never stated in the manga.

So overall, I disagree, there's no new evidence since the half a dozen other times this was rejected and I think this deserves a discussion rule at this point.

I agree with purgy.

 

[DuDE01010]

Haku's profile already covers this;

Having a note at the bottom that states ice mirrors are generally accepted as an outlier, isn't the same thing as having an accepted speed tier on his profile.

• Kid Sharingan Sasuke was able to react to and perceive his movements and even reach Naruto before Haku, completely undeniable, and pre-Sharingan Sasuke was actually beginning to react to him.
• Sasuke without the Sharingan was initially getting blitzed, even before activating it he was beginning to react and after activating the Sharingan he was both able to react and intercept Haku's attacks.

Every scan you posted has Sasuke either aim dodging Haku's senbon or reacting to Haku when he physically moves outside of the mirrors, instead of reflecting.

Haku is not Light speed when he's outside of his mirrors or when attacking. Every time Haku or his senbon physically leaves the mirror they are not light speed.

There's a difference between Haku reflecting off mirrors to transport vs Haku physically stepping out of a mirror and going to the next one.

Reflecting off mirrors is lightspeed

• Haku literally states he can see Naruto/Sasuke in slow motion because of the speed he travels at via reflection, meaning Haku must have lightspeed reactions and yet Haku was completely incapable of reacting to KN0 Naruto, so this being accepted would make KN0 Naruto lightspeed at the bare minimum and most likely Sasuke as well.

Haku isn't light speed when he's outside of his mirrors. Whatever his stats are when reflecting wont be the same as when he's outside.

Every single scan you use to justify Sasuke being blitzed is Pre-Sharingan Sasuke, and even that Sasuke was managing to react towards the end.

Covered above.

The anime isn't canon and it was never stated in the manga.

And the manga and the databook are. Manga has Haku reflecting off mirrors. Databook has two light speed statements. Anime is just further supporting evidence. Sasuke and Naruto reacting to Haku or his senbon outside of his mirrors doesn't mean the duo are light speed, nor does this mean Haku's reflection isn't light speed.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Haku is stated to be suppressed and against killing them on multiple occasions, and because of that he drains his chakra and becomes weaker.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Damn, I was inclined to agree but Purgy brought up a fantastic point. I agree with Purgy.

 

[JED]

Purgy couldn’t wait to down bad this thread lol

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Haku is only lightspeed when he travels through the mirrors, similar to Hanged Man from JoJo's.

• Here, Haku's attacks left Sasuke defenseless, and he even threatened to kill Sasuke on a dime.
• Sasuke points out how Haku was only inflicting surface-level wounds as opposed to killing blows, which he was very capable of doing.
  • Haku actually confirms that he was initially not actively trying to kill either him or Naruto.
• Here, Haku's attacks blitz both Naruto and Sasuke and leave them floored before they can do anything.
• Here, Haku travels so fast that a drop of water is frozen in place until he enters another mirror and once again, he leaves Naurto floored instantly.
  • Haku states that his ability is that of Teleportation, which is typically attributed to lightspeed movement or Space-Time Manipulation.
    • Of course, Haku noted that this was due to his speed, so it would be the former.
• Sasuke could only narrowly evade taking shots at his vital areas as his Sharingan developed and as Haku's stamina waned.
• If you look here, Haku never actually threw anything at Sasuke. Both of them point out that this attack was a feint in an attempt to fool him.

The databook only states that Haku moves at lightspeed when he travels between the mirrors. None of his punches suddenly become lightspeed, his reactions do not suddenly become lightspeed. It's just travel speed as he moves through the mirrors which makes sense. Whether or not this needs to be listed on his page is beyond me, but to actively discredit it is silly. He is literally moving as a reflection between mirrors.

The databook even notes that it would be impossible to keep up with Haku when he travels at the speed of light, which is backed up by the battle.

 

[Purgy]

Having a note at the bottom that states ice mirrors are generally accepted as an outlier, isn't the same thing as having an accepted speed tier on his profile.

The note states Haku being lightspeed is hyperbolic/an outlier, you're not presenting any new evidence, everything here has been discussed before in several threads on Haku's speed.

Every scan you posted has Sasuke either aim dodging Haku's senbon

None of those are aimdodging, Sasuke is literally reacting to the senbon and moving fast enough to avoid vitals, Haku even notes that he does it right at the last second.

And again, Haku is able to see Naruto/Sasuke's movements and throw senbon at them while he's traveling from mirror to mirror, so he must have light speed reactions if he's traveling at light speed and capable of actively targeting Naruto/Sasuke with senbon, you can't deny this.

or reacting to Haku when he physically moves outside of the mirrors, instead of reflecting.

Haku doesn't have two different kinds of transporting through the mirrors, nowhere is this stated or implied, you're just incorrectly interpreting how he does it to try and not have Naruto/Sasuke scale and thus the feat not deemed an outlier, which it clearly is.

Here he is reflecting between the mirrors, yet we see him move with his actual body out of the mirror, that's just literally how the technique works, the only reason we don't see that in the rest of the scans is because we're being shown how fast Haku is in real time or it's because Sasuke is now able to keep up and it's showing Haku is slowmotion, this is so painfully obvious.

Haku is not Light speed when he's outside of his mirrors or when attacking. Every time Haku or his senbon physically leaves the mirror they are not light speed.

Haku throws the senbon while traveling from mirror to mirror, in the same way a rock thrown out of a moving Airplane doesn't just suddenly freeze in the air but instead carries the velocity, those thrown senbon would also be traveling at a speed relative to Haku.

Reflecting off mirrors is lightspeed

Never argued otherwise, doesn't change that it's an outlier though, no matter how much you try to argue nobody scales to it.

And the manga and the databook are. Manga has Haku reflecting off mirrors. Databook has two light speed statements. Anime is just further supporting evidence. Sasuke and Naruto reacting to Haku or his senbon outside of his mirrors doesn't mean the duo are light speed, nor does this mean Haku's reflection isn't light speed.

Not something I ever argued against, the anime isn't canon, so you using the dub referring to Haku moving at lightspeed is pointless, you don't get to use non canon information as a supporting argument.

Haku is stated to be suppressed and against killing them on multiple occasions, and because of that he drains his chakra and becomes weaker.

Since when does being at somewhat less chakra make you hundreds of thousands of times slower? And lets not act like Haku was so low on chakra that he was about to collapse or something, he was perfectly fine and only said he needed to end it soon.

Haku was trying to KO them instead of killing them true, but what reason would he have to compliment Sasuke's speed and compare it to his own if he's just massively holding back?

Lastly, it's pretty clear you know a feat is an outlier when your entire argument is centered around trying to not have people scale to it so it gets accepted.

 

[DuDE01010]

Haku is only lightspeed when he travels through the mirrors, similar to Hanged Man from JoJo's.

• Here, Haku's attacks left Sasuke defenseless, and he even threatened to kill Sasuke on a dime.
• Sasuke points out how Haku was only inflicting surface-level wounds as opposed to killing blows, which he was very capable of doing.
  • Haku actually confirms that he was initially not actively trying to kill either him or Naruto.
• Here, Haku's attacks blitz both Naruto and Sasuke and leave them floored before they can do anything.
• Here, Haku travels so fast that a drop of water is frozen in place until he enters another mirror and once again, he leaves Naurto floored instantly.
  • Haku states that his ability is that of Teleportation, which is typically attributed to lightspeed movement or Space-Time Manipulation.
    • Of course, Haku noted that this was due to his speed, so it would be the former.
• Sasuke could only narrowly evade taking shots at his vital areas as his Sharingan developed and as Haku's stamina waned.
• If you look here, Haku never actually threw anything at Sasuke. Both of them point out that this attack was a feint in an attempt to fool him.

The databook only states that Haku moves at lightspeed when he travels between the mirrors. None of his punches suddenly become lightspeed, his reactions do not suddenly become lightspeed. It's just travel speed as he moves through the mirrors which makes sense. Whether or not this needs to be listed on his page is beyond me, but to actively discredit it is silly. He is literally moving as a reflection between mirrors.

The databook even notes that it would be impossible to keep up with Haku when he travels at the speed of light, which is backed up by the battle.

Adding to this.

Haku has two methods of movement

1. He can either transport to another mirror via reflection: This is light speed.
2. Or he can physically move himself out of one mirror and into another one: This is not light speed

The argument Purgy presents is that, because Sasuke and Naruto are able to react to Haku when he's physically outside of the mirrors, then the light speed feat is an outlier. Except this doesn't matter since Haku outside of his mirrors is not light speed.

At least Supersonic (Fought equally against Sasuke and Naruto in the Land of Waves Arc while holding back), possibly Massively Hypersonic+ (Intercepted Zabuza’s shuriken with his senbon.

Light speed comes from Haku reflecting off his mirrors without physically stepping outside of them.

• One manga statement saying Haku transports by reflecting between mirrors
• Multiple manga panels of Haku reflecting off mirrors, without stepping out side of them
• Two databook statements saying light speed movement
• One dubbed anime episode (even if its not canon) supporting light speed movement.

 

[DuDE01010]

The note states Haku being lightspeed is hyperbolic/an outlier, you're not presenting any new evidence, everything here has been discussed before in several threads on Haku's speed.

Except I am.

None of those are aimdodging, Sasuke is literally reacting to the senbon and moving fast enough to avoid vitals, Haku even notes that he does it right at the last second.

Sasuke literally is ready for them "here he comes". And this point is still meaningless since the senbon aren't moving at light speed when thrown.

And again, Haku is able to see Naruto/Sasuke's movements and throw senbon at them while he's traveling from mirror to mirror, so he must have light speed reactions if he's traveling at light speed and capable of actively targeting Naruto/Sasuke with senbon, you can't deny this.

Haku doesn't need to have light speed reactions if he's reflecting into multiple mirrors without stepping outside of them.

Haku doesn't have two different kinds of transporting through the mirrors, nowhere is this stated or implied, you're just incorrectly interpreting how he does it to try and not have Naruto/Sasuke scale and thus the feat not deemed an outlier, which it clearly is.

Of course he does.

Here he's reflecting

Here he is physically stepping outside of the mirrors.

How can you say there's no two different methods of transporting when in the second scan Haku attacks Naruto by physically coming outside of the mirror and then had to run to another one, instead of just refecting.

Here he is reflecting between the mirrors, yet we see him move with his actual body out of the mirror, that's just literally how the technique works, the only reason we don't see that in the rest of the scans is because we're being shown how fast Haku is in real time or it's because Sasuke is now able to keep up and it's showing Haku is slowmotion, this is so painfully obvious.

Haku is literally phisically moving out of his mirros.

Haku throws the senbon while traveling from mirror to mirror, in the same way a rock thrown out of a moving Airplane doesn't just suddenly freeze in the air but instead carries the velocity, those thrown senbon would also be traveling at a speed relative to Haku.

Travel speed doesn't have to equate to his Senbon speeds and Haku was slowing down.

Never argued otherwise, doesn't change that it's an outlier though, no matter how much you try to argue nobody scales to it.

Exactly nobody scales to it, therefore it isn't an outlier for Haku's travel speed via reflecting off mirrors.

Not something I ever argued against, the anime isn't canon, so you using the dub referring to Haku moving at lightspeed is pointless, you don't get to use non canon information as a supporting argument.

Still usable as additional supporting evidence.

Since when does being at somewhat less chakra make you hundreds of thousands of times slower? And lets not act like Haku was so low on chakra that he was about to collapse or something, he was perfectly fine and only said he needed to end it soon.

It didn't make him hundreds of thousands of times slower otherwise Sasuke would have been able to blitz Haku instead of it being the other way around when he stepped outside the mirrors.

Haku was trying to KO them instead of killing them true, but what reason would he have to compliment Sasuke's speed and compare it to his own if he's just massively holding back?

What's wrong with complementing some's speed and comparing it to Haku's regular speed? And this comparison part is meaningless since Haku's regular speed is Atleast supersonic, possibly MHS+ while Ssuke is just Supersonic

Lastly, it's pretty clear you know a feat is an outlier when your entire argument is centered around trying to not have people scale to it so it gets accepted.

This makes no sense lol. Why would I scale Haku's reflection speed to characters that will never scale to it the first place?

• One manga statement saying Haku transports by reflecting between mirrors
• Multiple manga panels of Haku reflecting off mirrors, without stepping out side of them
• Two databook statements saying light speed movement
• One dubbed anime episode (even if its not canon) supporting light speed movement.
• Naruto and Sasuke never being able to react to Haku's refections

Not an outlier.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Still agree with OP.

 

[Baken384]

I also agree with OP

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Honestly, I think Purgy is making the most sense here.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't this be an outlier due to what's established later in the series with the lightspeed transportation jutsu the Raikage and Tsunade used which showed if you aren't durable enough would tare you to pieces!....

Haku would half to be comparable the fourth Raikage in terms of durability to survive moving at such speed and we know he isn't since early series Kakashi punched clean through him with a Lightning Blade...

Also regardless of what the "dub" states, it's not canon so I wouldn't use it regardless of whether it supports your argument or not since it's non canon and wasn't said in canon. Just the datebook statements should be used.

 

[KingTempest]

Haku would half to be comparable the fourth Raikage in terms of durability to survive moving at such speed and we know he isn't since early series Kakashi punched clean through him with a Lightning Blade...

Completely forgot about this

 

[Cyberblader90]

couldnt that be due to the technique itself, and not just straight light speed movement?

 

[KingTempest]

couldnt that be due to the technique itself, and not just straight light speed movement?

Specifically say speed.
"Transmission rate"

 

[DuDE01010]

Correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't this be an outlier due to what's established later in the series with the lightspeed transportation jutsu the Raikage and Tsunade used which showed if you aren't durable enough would tare you to pieces!....

Haku would half to be comparable the fourth Raikage in terms of durability to survive moving at such speed and we know he isn't since early series Kakashi punched clean through him with a Lightning Blade...

Also regardless of what the "dub" states, it's not canon so I wouldn't use it regardless of whether it supports your argument or not since it's non canon and wasn't said in canon. Just the datebook statements should be used.

Haku's light speed feat is not for him physically moving from mirror to mirror. Its just for him reflecting. So I don't see why the durability argument needs to apply?

Haku has two ways of moving between mirrors

1. He can either transport to another mirror via reflection: This is light speed.
2. Or he can physically move himself out of one mirror and into another one: This is not light speed.

Haku's light speed feat is for his reflection. He will still have at least subsonic, possibly MHS+ for his regular physical movement.

 

[Cyberblader90]

The actual databook scan if anyone wants it btw

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Haku's light speed feat is not for him physically moving from mirror to mirror. Its just for him reflecting. So I don't see why the durability argument needs to apply?

Haku has two ways of moving between mirrors

1. He can either transport to another mirror via reflection: This is light speed.
2. Or he can physically move himself out of one mirror and into another one: This is not light speed.

Haku's light speed feat is for his reflection. He will still have at least subsonic, possibly MHS+ for his regular physical movement.

In the scan you posted in the OP it literally states "lightspeed movement" and it doesn't matter if Haku isn't doing his normal physical movement, he's still being "moved"/"transported" via reflecting off the mirrors at the speed of light. Unless you want to argue he's teleporting, the Durability argument needs to be applied because it's still him being moved at light speed.

 

[Cyberblader90]

We could always ask the site translater to go over the raw I posted above

 

[LordGriffin1000]

We could always ask the site translater to go over the raw I posted above

I don't have an issue with this.

 

[Purgy]

Doesn't the OP already have that translated?

 

[Cyberblader90]

I mean Data book one has never been officially translated. It's a fan translation. And some of those are kind of notorious for messing up big time

 

[DuDE01010]

In the scan you posted in the OP it literally states "lightspeed movement" and it doesn't matter if Haku isn't doing his normal physical movement, he's still being "moved"/"transported" via reflecting off the mirrors at the speed of light. Unless you want to argue he's teleporting, the Durability argument needs to be applied because it's still him being moved at light speed.

Ok then why would Mabui's statement, which is based off her experience with the Ethereal transport jutsu, take precedence over Haku's feats + two supporting databook statements?

We have Mabui stating the speed of the Ethereal transport will kill someone vs multiple feats of Haku reflecting off mirrors and two supporting statements from the databook showing exactly the opposite.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Ok then why would Mabui's statement, which is based off her experience with the Ethereal transport jutsu, take precedence over Haku's feats + two supporting databook statements?

We have Mabui stating the speed of the Ethereal transport will kill someone vs multiple feats of Haku reflecting off mirrors and two supporting statements from the databook showing exactly the opposite.

Because it's not just the statement, iirc we visually see Tsunade being harmed by the speed of the jutsu and she's more durable than Haku? If what she said wasn't true than Tsunade would have strolled on through without harm but she didn't and needed to heal the damage.

I'll grab the scan later tomorrow since my internet is garbage and won't load sites properly. If this thread isn't concluded by that time. Anyway I'll be signing off until then.

 

[Purgy]

Because it's not just the statement, iirc we visually see Tsunade being harmed by the speed of the jutsu and she's more durable than Haku? If what she said wasn't true than Tsunade would have strolled on through without harm but she didn't and needed to heal the damage.

I'll grab the scan later tomorrow since my internet is garbage and won't load sites properly. If this thread isn't concluded by that time. Anyway I'll be signing off until then.

Here

Also stated in the databook (fan translation)

 

[joshpiece]

Unless anybody wants to make the claim Haku> Raikage then shouldn’t what’s already on the profile be good enough.

 

[Cyberblader90]

https://vsbattles.com/threads/official-translations-requests-thread-new-forum.107531/post-3809000