Light Novel Tensura characters are not affected by Time Paradox and it is real

[Mizuki67]

I am back again with another thread



Acausal Type 1 Addition
Beyond-Dimensional Existence (Type 1; Information Particles transcend Space and Time,[39] and are unaffected by space and time in any way,[39] which extends to them being able to resist time stop and Digital Lifeforms like Rimuru was able to survive and witness the end of the universe,[21] the End of Space and Time a point in the far distant future where the universe itself[21] has come to an end,[21] the End of the World itself, leaving only complete nothingness[21])

Definition of BDE:
Type 1: Characters who lack spatiotemporal features entirely, while not actually being superior to them in nature. They are simply ontologically different from any dimensional construct, but can ultimately still be comparable to dimension-bound entities in terms of raw power. Due to being aspatial and atemporal, they are obviously immune to conventional Spatial Manipulation and Time Manipulation, and since they are not part of the spacetime continuum, they usually have Acausality (Type 1)

Now, this part should obviously give them Acausality type 1 because of the fact that they were able to witness the end of the universe and are not affected by past changes and also by the fact that they were able to move to any point in time

Acausality Type 1 for Digital Lifeforms

Adressing the Acausality type 1 Problem

It seems like i misunderstand

It should be noted that it is not that characters like Velgrynd can be affected by time paradox, it is just because of the fact that a law forbids them to go to a place where their past self already exists to prevent a contradiction to the world, otherwise the timeline will be remade. So the world works like a system which is undeniable.

So Velgrynd should have Acausality type 1 because of the fact she can travel anywhere in space and time , regardless if there are places with no causality, different laws, or different timelines plus she is able to change the course of events if she wants to. Furthermore, her skill was also mentioned to be far above other Skills of its kind and we can also say that it is because of Ultimate Skill users who are not bounded by the laws of the world - Volume 15, Chapter 1 so Acausality 1 for them ?

Spiritual Lifeforms
To be honest the fact that Spiritual Lifeforms like Vega could retain their conceptual form and survive at the end of space and time which is outside of space-time - somewhere at Volume 21 would already give them Acausality type 1 since this imply that they are outside of the timeline itself and would not be affected by the changes in time. Need input for this

 

[Digital_Franz]

First of all, I don't think that being outside of the timeline grant Acausality Type 1.

I agree with Acausality Type 1 via BDE Type 1.

Finally I realized something. As I have been saying since with the pre-established harmony there are no paradoxes because everything had to be like this (Velgrynd's travels led Masayuki to the Cardinal World). In addition, the Ultimate skills prevent time travel when there is already the same entity just to prevent the paradox of "a double existence in the same world" which is not really a temporal paradox among those concerning Acausality Type 1. Once the time travel is done, there will never be paradoxes because a timeline is created by the very fact of traveling in time, so any modification in the past will already be done in another timeline which will not cause any paradox. It should be noted that the worlds are self-enclosed and time travel in one world creates timelines and does not affect the other worlds.

 

[Mizuki67]

First of all, I don't think that being outside of the timeline grant Acausality Type 1.

I agree with Acausality Type 1 via BDE Type 1.

Finally I realized something. As I have been saying since with the pre-established harmony there are no paradoxes because everything had to be like this (Velgrynd's travels led Masayuki to the Cardinal World). In addition, the Ultimate skills prevent time travel when there is already the same entity just to prevent the paradox of "a double existence in the same world" which is not really a temporal paradox among those concerning Acausality Type 1. Once the time travel is done, there will never be paradoxes because a timeline is created by the very fact of traveling in time, so any modification in the past will already be done in another timeline which will not cause any paradox. It should be noted that the worlds are self-enclosed and time travel in one world creates timelines and does not affect the other worlds.

Self enclosed world aren't timelines my guy. Also like I mentioned in the thread earlier 2 timelines were not allowed to exist at the same time because the system of the world prevents that. If one travel in time a new timeline would be created but velgrynd is not affected at all

1) Masayuki travel would be considered a contradiction because the events are still connected to the main timeline she exist in. There is also the fact that she might know him in the past because he is famous

2) there was no mention of Velgrynd being affected by Time paradox.

3) Velgrynd has an Ultimate Skill that transcends time. How do u explain that she went to the gap where no causality exists.

4) Yet again there is a mention where one has the ability to force their matter and shove it to any paradox. How do u explain the mask

5) The fact that your argument is everything is set in stone so no paradox occur i dont agree because as I have already mentioned Ultimate skill users are usually not bounded by some laws.

6) the world not allowing a double existence does not debunk Acausality Type 1 like I said it is part of how the system works

 

[Mizuki67]

First of all, I don't think that being outside of the timeline grant Acausality Type 1.

It could be depend on how the verse work but now I kinda doubt it since we do not have enough evidence to prove that they are still not affected by time.

 

[Digital_Franz]

Self enclosed world aren't timelines my guy. Also like I mentioned in the thread earlier 2 timelines were not allowed to exist at the same time because the system of the world prevents that. If one travel in time a new timeline would be created and the other timeline would dissappear but velgrynd did not even affect the timeline at all.

Never said otherwise. I spoke of self-enclosed to remind that worlds do not influence each other even because of time travel.

1) Masayuki travel would be considered a contradiction because the events are still connected to the main timeline she exist in. There is also the fact that she might know him in the past because he is famous

I don't see how that would be a contradiction. She didn't know him because she hadn't traveled to the other worlds yet.

2) there was no mention of Velgrynd being affected by Time paradox.

Just like there is no mention of her being immune to time paradoxes.

3) Velgrynd has an Ultimate Skill that transcends time. How do u explain that she went to the gap where no causality exists.

Transcending time in itself means nothing without context. And a dimension without causality does not mean it is immune to causality. It is just as the dimension is and nothing more.

4) Yet again there is a mention where one has the ability to force their matter and shove it to any paradox. How do u explain the mask

The mask is still part of the pre-established harmony and must always return to Rimuru. It does not indicate anything about immunity against paradoxes.

5) The fact that your argument is everything is set in stone so no paradox occur i dont agree because as I have already mentioned Ultimate skill users are usually not bounded by some laws.

They are not bound by any laws but it is still a part of the pre-established harmony and they will obey at all costs. In addition the work makes it known that time type paradoxes are prohibited and through God and his pre-established harmony.

6) the world not allowing a double existence does not debunk Acausality Type 1 like I said it is part of how the system works

In itself it is not a time type paradox and so far if you throw out even this part nothing justifies the fact that they are immune to time type paradoxes.

It could be depend on how the verse work but now I kinda doubt it since we do not have enough evidence to prove that they are still not affected by time.

Yeah and it's literally the way Tensura works with its pre-established harmony that makes me doubt this.

 

[Mizuki67]

Never said otherwise. I spoke of self-enclosed to remind that worlds do not influence each other even because of time travel.

I don't see how that would be a contradiction. She didn't know him because she hadn't traveled to the other worlds yet.

Just like there is no mention of her being immune to time paradoxes.

Transcending time in itself means nothing without context. And a dimension without causality does not mean it is immune to causality. It is just as the dimension is and nothing more.

The mask is still part of the pre-established harmony and must always return to Rimuru. It does not indicate anything about immunity against paradoxes.

They are not bound by any laws but it is still a part of the pre-established harmony and they will obey at all costs. In addition the work makes it known that time type paradoxes are prohibited and through God and his pre-established harmony.

In itself it is not a time type paradox and so far if you throw out even this part nothing justifies the fact that they are immune to time type paradoxes.

Yeah and it's literally the way Tensura works with its pre-established harmony that makes me doubt this.

Aight I concede I think what you are trying to say kinda make sense as well, but I will still hear out other people's thoughts since I do not have enough scans to show

 

[Mizuki67]

Never said otherwise. I spoke of self-enclosed to remind that worlds do not influence each other even because of time travel.

I don't see how that would be a contradiction. She didn't know him because she hadn't traveled to the other worlds yet.

Just like there is no mention of her being immune to time paradoxes.

Transcending time in itself means nothing without context. And a dimension without causality does not mean it is immune to causality. It is just as the dimension is and nothing more.

The mask is still part of the pre-established harmony and must always return to Rimuru. It does not indicate anything about immunity against paradoxes.

They are not bound by any laws but it is still a part of the pre-established harmony and they will obey at all costs. In addition the work makes it known that time type paradoxes are prohibited and through God and his pre-established harmony.

In itself it is not a time type paradox and so far if you throw out even this part nothing justifies the fact that they are immune to time type paradoxes.

Yeah and it's literally the way Tensura works with its pre-established harmony that makes me doubt this.

So you are fine that Digital Lifeform get it except others ?

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Acausal Type 1 Addition
Beyond-Dimensional Existence (Type 1; Information Particles transcend Space and Time,[39] and are unaffected by space and time in any way,[39] which extends to them being able to resist time stop and Digital Lifeforms like Rimuru was able to survive and witness the end of the universe,[21] the End of Space and Time a point in the far distant future where the universe itself[21] has come to an end,[21] the End of the World itself, leaving only complete nothingness[21])

Now, this part should obviously give them Acausality type 1 because of the fact that they were able to witness the end of the universe and are not affected by past changes and also by the fact that they were able to move to any point in time

Acausality Type 1 for Digital Lifeforms

We can't say that just because Rimuru survived the end of the world, all Digital Lifeforms can too. Since it was explicitly stated that all of his friends had died, which would naturally include Chloe as well, another DLF.

However, I think you can give them Aca2 for the fact that the Information Particles' nature is to be unaffected by Space and Time whatsoever, because they already have BDE1 nature, and we know that a BDE1 thing does NOT trace a path in Space Time due to its sheer nature of lacking it. So...

Type 2: Temporal Singularity: Characters with this type of Acausality do not exist in either the past or the future, only the present. This means they cannot be affected by changes to the past, while also making them resistant to Precognition that works by viewing the future, as they do not exist within it, and Fate Manipulation, for the same reason. In essence, they are able to choose their own fates, but they remain just as vulnerable at the point in time in which they do exist.

Naturally, they would also not be affected by the Flow of Time, nor would they exist in the past or the future[because they do not trace a path through time as per their intrinsic nature].

Beyond-Dimensional Existence is the state of existing beyond dimensions. In the majority of cases, this will be referring to characters who are timeless and spaceless. That is to say: A "beyond-dimensional" character does not take up any volume whatsoever, nor does it occupy a position in spacetime, nor does its continued existence trace a path through it. They are, as such, much different from 0-dimensional characters, who simply have no extension in any dimension and still occupy spatial location.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Adressing the Acausality type 1 Problem

It seems like i misunderstand

It should be noted that it is not that characters like Velgrynd can be affected by time paradox, it is just because of the fact that a law forbids them to go to a place where their past self already exists to prevent a contradiction to the world, otherwise the timeline will be remade. So the world works like a system which is undeniable.

So Velgrynd should have Acausality type 1 because of the fact she can travel anywhere in space and time , regardless if there are places with no causality, different laws, or different timelines plus she is able to change the course of events if she wants to. Furthermore, her skill was also mentioned to be far above other Skills of its kind and we can also say that it is because of Ultimate Skill users who are not bounded by the laws of the world - Volume 15, Chapter 1 so Acausality 1 for them ?

While I don't think the reasoning you gave for this will qualify for her having Aca1, she can have it via another reasoning that since she can essentially travel to an entirely different Other World, she would not have any concrete "past" in that Other World because it's not her original world, so her original past does not exist in that world[it exists in the cardinal world tho].

Tho, this type of this is a far LIMITED version of Aca1.

 

[Mizuki67]

We can't say that just because Rimuru survived the end of the world, all Digital Lifeforms can too. Since it was explicitly stated that all of his friends had died, which would naturally include Chloe as well, another DLF.

However, I think you can give them Aca2 for the fact that the Information Particles' nature is to be unaffected by Space and Time whatsoever, because they already have BDE1 nature, and we know that a BDE1 thing does NOT trace a path in Space Time due to its sheer nature of lacking it. So...

Naturally, they would also not be affected by the Flow of Time, nor would they exist in the past or the future[because they do not trace a path through time as per their intrinsic nature].

Well I can argue that they probably died because of Feldway or Ivaraj or Milim power and it probably killed all of them but again we truly do not know what happened in that timeline

If it qualifies for Acausal Type 2 I might as well go with what you suggest but uh yeah I would just like to keep a safe bet at the mean time. I will just see what the staff have to say first

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Well I can argue that they probably died because of Feldway or Ivaraj or Milim power and it probably killed all of them but again we truly do not know what happened in that timeline

Indeed, but your first point is indeed an applicable argument, since we know that most of them[like Diablo] had HGR[regen or resurrection] of some form, so its likely a thing to do with Feldway.

If it qualifies for Acausal Type 2 I might as well go with what you suggest but uh yeah I would just like to keep a safe bet at the mean time. I will just see what the staff have to say first

Using a more solid argument is never a "just to keep it safe", bur regardless, if you really want to stick to your current proposals, then you can also use the following:

Type 1: Characters who lack spatiotemporal features entirely, while not actually being superior to them in nature. They are simply ontologically different from any dimensional construct, but can ultimately still be comparable to dimension-bound entities in terms of raw power. Due to being aspatial and atemporal, they are obviously immune to conventional Spatial Manipulation and Time Manipulation, and since they are not part of the spacetime continuum, they usually have Acausality (Type 1)

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I don't really have the best BDE judgement, but will ping @Elizhaa

 

[Mizuki67]

I don't really have the best BDE judgement, but will ping @Elizhaa

what do you think of Acausality Type 2 based on Astral reason.

 

[Digital_Franz]

Aight I concede I think what you are trying to say kinda make sense as well, but I will still hear out other people's thoughts since I do not have enough scans to show

No problem.

So you are fine that Digital Lifeform get it except others ?

Yes.

 

[Digital_Franz]

We can't say that just because Rimuru survived the end of the world, all Digital Lifeforms can too. Since it was explicitly stated that all of his friends had died, which would naturally include Chloe as well, another DLF.

However, I think you can give them Aca2 for the fact that the Information Particles' nature is to be unaffected by Space and Time whatsoever, because they already have BDE1 nature, and we know that a BDE1 thing does NOT trace a path in Space Time due to its sheer nature of lacking it. So...

Naturally, they would also not be affected by the Flow of Time, nor would they exist in the past or the future[because they do not trace a path through time as per their intrinsic nature].

No. BDE gives Acausality Type 1 and not Type 2. They are always "recorded" by time. Good example: Guy existing in the past. If Guy had Acausality Type 2 he should not exist in any timeline created by Chloe's time travel. Also the IPs make up the world, saying they exist only in the present would be like saying the past and future don't exist and therefore no time travel.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

BDE gives Acausality Type 1 and not Type 2.

The term being used is "Usually", not always or necessarily.

Type 1: Characters who lack spatiotemporal features entirely, while not actually being superior to them in nature. They are simply ontologically different from any dimensional construct, but can ultimately still be comparable to dimension-bound entities in terms of raw power. Due to being aspatial and atemporal, they are obviously immune to conventional Spatial Manipulation and Time Manipulation, and since they are not part of the spacetime continuum, they usually have Acausality (Type 1)

They are always "recorded" by time

Once again, the definition page itself

Beyond-Dimensional Existence is the state of existing beyond dimensions. In the majority of cases, this will be referring to characters who are timeless and spaceless. That is to say: A "beyond-dimensional" character does not take up any volume whatsoever, nor does it occupy a position in spacetime, nor does its continued existence trace a path through it. They are, as such, much different from 0-dimensional characters, who simply have no extension in any dimension and still occupy spatial location.

If Guy had Acausality Type 2 he should not exist in any timeline created by Chloe's time travel

The Timelines aren't exactly "created" by Chloe's time travel, they already exist, its just that chloe always travels to a different one.
The process of branching timeline happens as a function of the World[the world system], the same thing that also prevents contradictions from happening. Given that the world system was created by a superior being, Veldanava, it shouldn't be a problem to say that Guy exists in every timeline because that's how the World system makes it so.

Also the IPs make up the world, saying they exist only in the present would be like saying the past and future don't exist and therefore no time travel.

Valid, I suppose. This one is a good counter.

 

[Digital_Franz]

The Timelines aren't exactly "created" by Chloe's time travel, they already exist, its just that chloe always travels to a different one.
The process of branching timeline happens as a function of the World[the world system], the same thing that also prevents contradictions from happening. Given that the world system was created by a superior being, Veldanava, it shouldn't be a problem to say that Guy exists in every timeline because that's how the World system makes it so.

Yeah that's a good point. The pre-established harmony supports this point well because everything is already written and at the same time is written. God may have decided: Guy will be in all timelines. Fair.

 

[Elizhaa]

Type 1 Acausality is fine. Type 2 Acausality would need only a version of the character existing in the present; I think the evidence should be more stronger, so I disagree.

 

[Mizuki67]

I don't really have the best BDE judgement, but will ping @Elizhaa

So.. what do you think

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Type 1 Acausality is fine. Type 2 Acausality would need only a version of the character existing in the present; I think the evidence should be more stronger, so I disagree.

This sounds good.

 

[CodeCCLL]

I've been sick for a while so I've only been able to look into this thread now.

And again, I see a thread that is applied before the grace ended...

 

[Mizuki67]

I've been sick for a while so I've only been able to look into this thread now.

And again, I see a thread that is applied before the grace ended...

I have been told that I could apply the changes now since this is not controversial to apply (i literally left the thread opened for a reason) but fine I will just wait for grace period to end.

 

[Mizuki67]

24 hours has passed since this post was created looks like I can undo the edits then ..

 

[CodeCCLL]

24 hours has passed since this post was created looks like I can undo the edits then ..

48*

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

48*

only for controversial ones or really big ones

Acausality type 1 is not only being derived from an already accepted BDE1 here, and Aca1 is considered a minor ability...

Minor Content Revisions​

• Instances of minor revisions may include changes to one or two characters, if it is just the addition of simple abilities that do not fall into the categories of acausality (except type 1), concept manipulation, abstract existence, plot manipulation, information manipulation, causality manipulation, nonexistent physiology, law manipulation etc. or otherwise could be considered particularly controversial or noteworthy.

 

[CodeCCLL]

only for controversial ones

Minor content revisions are not the same as uncontroversial content revisions.

And this thread is not

extremely blatant, self-evident revisions.

First of all, I don't think that being outside of the timeline grant Acausality Type 1.

Yes, not by default.

Acausality type 1 because of the fact that they were able to witness the end of the universe and are not affected by past changes

I agree with Digital Lifeforms having Acausality Type 1 in addition to BDE Type 1, because destroying the Cardinal Universe's space-time continuum would have resulted in Rimuru not even being reincarnated in this world anyway, and Rimuru would never have become the Rimuru we know.

Yeah and it's literally the way Tensura works with its pre-established harmony that makes me doubt this.

Even if we could really talk about such a causality, it would be a causality that does not depend on space and time, concepts and laws, so this is not really a counter argument.

We can't say that just because Rimuru survived the end of the world, all Digital Lifeforms can too. Since it was explicitly stated that all of his friends had died, which would naturally include Chloe as well, another DLF.

Even the fact that Feldway kills Guy, who is also a DLF and to much harder to permanently kill than Chloe, does not constitute evidence that DLFs cannot exist at the end of space-time, because we know nothing about how Feldway killed them.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Even the fact that Feldway kills Guy, who is also a DLF and to much harder to permanently kill than Chloe, does not constitute evidence that DLFs cannot exist at the end of space-time, because we know nothing about how Feldway killed them

Ah, yeah, kinda forgot about that tbh. I forgot to take into consideration that Feldway was the reason they weren't alive

 

[Mizuki67]

Grace is over I will apply the changes

 

[CodeCCLL]

Grace is over I will apply the changes

Grace period starts from the moment the crt is posted, not from the moment the crt is accepted.

So grace period was already over when you sent this post.

24 hours has passed since this post was created looks like I can undo the edits then ..

I mean, you didn't have to wait 72 hours, but anyway, at least I was able to give my input during that time.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Grace period starts from the moment the crt is posted, not from the moment the crt is accepted.

So grace period was already over when you sent this post.

Strange, I thought it was the latter, but checking the discussion rules page, it seems I misunderstood that point.
Thanks for clarifying

 

[Tempestdragon6]

good