LGBT additions to the Vsbattles wiki

[Colonel_Krukov]

Kru, everyone here is working on their own spare time. It's not a job. We're talking about how we spend that spare time at all times when we talk about tasks here, and this one would be yet another that would add to the list of stuff already to be done (and the list is huge, as you may have noticed).

So? No one's making you add this to profiles? No one is being forced to add this themselves.

They are simply asking if they can add this themselves and if they want to, I don't see the issue.

 

[Crabwhale]

So? No one's making you add this to profiles? No one is being forced to add this themselves.

From the way the thread is structured it's very easy to assume this proposition is being laid out as a necessity rather than an option. If that is the case, then I'd be much more open to it, albeit I still consider it flavor at best.

 

[Colonel_Krukov]

Okay, that's fair

@CosmicWreck It seems people need clarification on whether you are saying this is something that's a priority or not. I assume it's just something you aren saying it's not that important to get done and users can add it to profiles if they wish to? And if so, you should probably mention that in the OP

 

[SamanPatou]

I'm fine with this, and if people are willing to get to work and add the category to related files, let them do it.
It's the kind of work that can be done by multiple people, volunteers, overtime and such, and in general It's not going to apply to, like, 30k file, so it isn't much of a workload either (also given the fact that adding a category takes, like, 5 seconds).

Just be sure to write the category description in the proper manner, consulting people who are familiar with the subject and know best how to write about it in the proper manner.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Well its just adding a category and that's fine. As some examples we have:

• A Male and Female category
• A category for Tragic characters
• A category for Alcoholics
• A category for Rich people
• A bunch more that are not related to anything profile wise

A LGBT tag shouldn't be a controversial decision or anything. We have plenty of profiles of Gay, Bisexual, Lesbian, Trans and other non-CIS/Het characters.

Though I will say that since its a category we're probably not getting a team to give a couple thousand people a LGBT tag. Though a big thread about characters that can qualify and we just add to it shouldn't be wild or disagreeable.

 

[Antvasima]

The category did exist at one point but was removed. (Actually, it seems it only existed for like 1 day before being deleted)

Yes, from what I recall, a homosexual staff member considered our very old "Homosexual Characters" category inappropriate, as it reduced the entire concepts and personalities of the characters in question to just a single trait, so I was reluctant to keep any such categories after that.

Also, I agree about that it doesn't seem particularly relevant to include a listing of what type of people somebody is sexually attracted to. Humans (or otherwise, since we are dealing with fiction) are all far far more than just a single character trait. It isn't a good box to confine them in.

In addition, wouldn't we be obliged to create a "Heterosexual Characters" category as well in that case? I am not looking forward to us wasting time on adding that to 20,000+ pages. It isn't very interesting information.

Then again, we already have quite a lot of rather confining and redundant character categories, and if our LGBTQ members would feel happy and empowered from easily finding such characters (and there are quite a lot of really good such characters around, such as Moondragon, Ivankov, Mystique, Giorno, etc.), it isn't like I want to take that away from them. Take note that there would have to be a consensus here though. Single members cannot proclaim that they speak for everybody who is LGBTQ here.

Also, we are just talking about categories here, not for us completely off-topic regular information pages about real world issues.

 

[Antvasima]

I only know male and female or maybe robots and some other fantasy races. what is LGBT? is it a new race?

LGBTQ is a western civilisation abbreviation term that is collectively applied for Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgendered, and Questioning people, with Questioning referring to that they do not know their self-identification in this area with certainty yet, if I have understood correctly.

 

[Antvasima]

Can't believe they are making an LGTBQ (verse) page

We are not. If understand correctly, what is suggested here is just to add an "LGBTQ Characters" category to the bottom of pages such as Ivankov, Mystique, and Moondragon, so our visitors can more easily find them all if they wish to.

 

[Damage3245]

In addition, wouldn't we be obliged to create a "Heterosexual Characters" category as well in that case? I am not looking forward to us wasting time on adding that to 20,000+ pages. It isn't very interesting information.

For what it is worth on wikis I've seen on the past, if an "LGBT Characters" category exists, then it is not necessary to add a "Heterosexual Characters" category or "Cisgender Characters" category as that would constitue the vast majority of the pages and basically cover everybody not included in the "LGBT Characters" category.

Such as here for example, the LGBT Characters category on the Worm Wiki.

 

[Arceus0x]

We are not. If understand correctly, what is suggested here is just to add an "LGBTQ Characters" category to the bottom of pages such as Ivankov, Mystique, and Moondragon, so our visitors can more easily find them all if they wish to.

i was just making a joke, one i tried to not orient at anything negative, just making fun of the titles implications. i will take my leave now.

 

[Colonel_Krukov]

I don't think the OP intends to create Heterosexual category, from the looks of it so far I don't see any issues taken from it by any LBGTQ+ members either, from my knowledge anyway.

The OP hasn't clarified whether they intend to make this a thing that people can add if though so wish to, but I'm assuming that's the case as I don't see this being too big of a deal that we need to add this.

Btw, some of these comments you have replied to I believe are trollish in nature, it's why I moved this to staff only. @Ant

 

[Antvasima]

I'm fine with this, and if people are willing to get to work and add the category to related files, let them do it.
It's the kind of work that can be done by multiple people, volunteers, overtime and such, and in general It's not going to apply to, like, 30k file, so it isn't much of a workload either (also given the fact that adding a category takes, like, 5 seconds).

Just be sure to write the category description in the proper manner, consulting people who are familiar with the subject and know best how to write about it in the proper manner.

Yes, we would have to make a note in the category page regarding that only characters that have been clearly officially defined as being LGBTQ should have it added to them, definitely not ones that are based on personal speculation.

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

I got permission from Colonel to speak here.

I just wanted to throw in that if we are making a category, it should be noted somewhere (probably on the category page) that people shouldn't be adding the tags to profiles that aren't confirmed to be lgbtq, so that people don't throw in headcanon and add the tag to pages where it doesn't belong.

 

[Antvasima]

For what it is worth on wikis I've seen on the past, if an "LGBT Characters" category exists, then it is not necessary to add a "Heterosexual Characters" category or "Cisgender Characters" category as that would constitue the vast majority of the pages and basically cover everybody not included in the "LGBT Characters" category.

Such as here for example, the LGBT Characters category on the Worm Wiki.

Okay. No problem regarding that then.

 

[Antvasima]

i was just making a joke, one i tried to not orient at anything negative, just making fun of the titles implications. i will take my leave now.

Okay. No problem.

 

[Antvasima]

I don't think the OP intends to create Heterosexual category, from the looks of it so far I don't see any issues taken from it by any LBGTQ+ members either, from my knowledge anyway.

The OP hasn't clarified whether they intend to make this a thing that people can add if though so wish to, but I'm assuming that's the case as I don't see this being too big of a deal that we need to add this.

Btw, some of these comments you have replied to I believe are trollish in nature, it's why I moved this to staff only. @Ant

Yes, it seems better to keep this thread as staff only. Thank you.

 

[Antvasima]

I got permission from Colonel to speak here.

I just wanted to throw in that if we are making a category, it should be noted somewhere (probably on the category page) that people shouldn't be adding the tags to profiles that aren't confirmed to be lgbtq, so that people don't throw in headcanon and add the tag to pages where it doesn't belong.

Yes, strongly agreed. This should be mentioned as a rule in the category page itself.

 

[Colonel_Krukov]

Yes, it seems better to keep this thread as staff only. Thank you.

No problem ^^

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

My main concern with that is not all verses will go the route of going "hey did you know this character is LGBT!!!!". A character who canonically changes their gender of their own free will and feels comfortable in their new gender would not receive an LGBTQ+ category with this logic, which is an obvious misrepresentation of that character.

Frankly I just hate the idea of someone having to shout their identity from the ******* heavens just for people to accept that they're LGBTQ+. Some things should be obviously be good enough on their own, like any sort of willing romantic or sexual engagement with someone of the same sex.

EDIT: I just noticed the staff only part, oops :v

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, I personally consider this suggestion harmless, but again, our LGBTQ members would need to form some sort of consensus regarding if the good (easily finding such characters and learning if there are any interesting ones around) is outweighing the bad (being singled out in this manner, and possibly implying that they are reduced to being defined by a single personality trait), and we need to make very clear that the category should only be used for characters that officially belong according to the people or companies that own them, not just based on fan-theories.

 

[Antvasima]

My main concern with that is not all verses will go the route of going "hey did you know this character is LGBT!!!!". A character who canonically changes their gender of their own free will and feels comfortable in their new gender would not receive an LGBTQ+ category with this logic, which is an obvious misrepresentation of that character.

Frankly I just hate the idea of someone having to shout their identity from the ******* heavens just for people to accept that they're LGBTQ+. Some things should be obviously be good enough on their own, like any sort of willing romantic or sexual engagement with someone of the same sex.

EDIT: I just noticed the staff only part, oops :v

They do not need to shout it, but it obviously needs to be based on reliable official information, much like all other information in our wiki should be.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

They do not need to shout it, but it obviously needs to be based on reliable official information, much like all other information in our wiki should be.

A character should not require direct statements, WoG or otherwise, about their gender or sexuality to qualify. There are some instances where a character is obviously gay or trans in spite of the lack of someone explicitly saying "this character is LGBT". Again, for example, a character who changes their gender of their own free will and is happier as their new gender, but the word transgender is never explicitly used to describe them, would not qualify for the category under this logic. Can you not see how ridiculous that is? There are some instances where a character is unambiguously LGBT based on their actions, and if we are not going to represent those characters as we do for characters who have WoG on their side, then the category isn't even worth having IMO.

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

My main concern with that is not all verses will go the route of going "hey did you know this character is LGBT!!!!". A character who canonically changes their gender of their own free will and feels comfortable in their new gender would not receive an LGBTQ+ category with this logic, which is an obvious misrepresentation of that character.

Frankly I just hate the idea of someone having to shout their identity from the ******* heavens just for people to accept that they're LGBTQ+. Some things should be obviously be good enough on their own, like any sort of willing romantic or sexual engagement with someone of the same sex.

The note is not meant to have strict requirements for who gets the tag. Characters in your first example would count, and if there are obvious implications then they would also count as well.

The note is basically meant to prevent people from adding the tags to characters who have no reason, explicit or implicit, to have the tag.

 

[Crabwhale]

EDIT: I just noticed the staff only part, oops :v

Unfortunately you will now have to be relocated into the VSBW-brand juicer for your crimes. Apologies in advance for you conversion into a meat smoothie.

Jokes aside, I don't think I got quite which side you're supporting.

 

[Antvasima]

A character should not require direct statements, WoG or otherwise, about their gender or sexuality to qualify. There are some instances where a character is obviously gay or trans in spite of the lack of someone explicitly saying "this character is LGBT". Again, for example, a character who changes their gender of their own free will and is happier as their new gender, but the word transgender is never explicitly used to describe them, would not qualify for the category under this logic. Can you not see how ridiculous that is? There are some instances where a character is unambiguously LGBT based on their actions, and if we are not going to represent those characters as we do for characters who have WoG on their side, then the category isn't even worth having IMO.

That is not what I am saying though. I am just saying that we should not have looser standards for reliable information than other additions to this wiki. As long as a LGBTQ statu has been reliably officially established, whether by blatant sexual preferences, reliable in-story statements, official statements from the people who own or are legitimately in charge of a character, or otherwise, it can obviously be added.

I am just saying that fanon cannot be used as a source for this or anything else in this wiki. Good quality control standards need to be included for all of our information. We do not want to spread blatant disinformation to absolutely massive amounts of people

 

[Antvasima]

The note is not meant to have strict requirements for who gets the tag. Characters in your first example would count, and if there are obvious implications then they would also count as well.

The note is basically meant to prevent people from adding the tags to characters who have no reason, explicit or implicit, to have the tag.

Exactly. Just because somebody has written a personal fanfiction story within which Blue Beetle and Booster Gold aren't just really good heterosexual friends, who get along extremely well with each other, this does not make it reliable official information, no matter how popular it turns out, and the same goes for Naruto and Sasuke, Superman and Batman, and so onwards.

 

[Kachon123]

1. Okamaitachi (Transgender)

Okamaitachi canonically joins the men in the baths so idk about this.

 

[Antvasima]

If the LGBT category is added, then the heterosexual category should be added as well.
Even tho, both are useless to be added. The sole of this wiki is to index power and abilities and not their sexual relationship. You still can add an LGBT profile (never knew you need to ask first to add them, but seems you wanted attention), but the LGBT category is literally discriminating. Either add every for sexual orientation a category or none.

The implied discrimination (reducing characters to who they want to have sex with) was the argument for why we removed "Homosexual Characters" category previously.

That said, we have plenty of other categories based on blatant personality traits as well, and this would make it easier for LGBTQ visitors to more easily find such characters that they might find compelling.

 

[Antvasima]

Okamaitachi canonically joins the men in the baths so idk about this.

Well, they are definitely homosexual at least, but yes I am not sure whether or not the Japanese okama concept consistently quite works in the same manner as western transgenderism.

 

[CosmicWreck]

I got permission from Colonel to speak here.

I just wanted to throw in that if we are making a category, it should be noted somewhere (probably on the category page) that people shouldn't be adding the tags to profiles that aren't confirmed to be lgbtq, so that people don't throw in headcanon and add the tag to pages where it doesn't belong.

You're right. Maybe this...

The categories will be: LGBT and nonconforming. That is, categories noting characters who are canonically considered to gay, straight, questioning, bisexual or transgendered or somehow do not follow the usual gender norms.

...can become this...

LGBT is an umbrella terminology that covers the gender identity, and sexuality of an individual that differs from that of cisgendered and heterosexual characters. When adding a character to this category please note the character must be stated to be canonically representative of the LGBT community. Visual depictions such as transforming by supernatural means, wearing different clothes, or expressing oneself in a manner more beholden to the opposite sex is not enough evidence as most characters still consider themselves to be of their biological sex when they do such actions, something that is reflective of the flexibility of real world gender identity.

Okay, that's fair

@CosmicWreck It seems people need clarification on whether you are saying this is something that's a priority or not. I assume it's just something you aren saying it's not that important to get done and users can add it to profiles if they wish to? And if so, you should probably mention that in the OP

Done.

Please note: This is just a thread asking for permission. Interested parties can mention characters they know to be LGBT if they desire to aid me in this endeavor. I will research the characters listed on the wiki, make sandboxes with the changes to the categories, and then perform the changes myself.

The only thing we decide now is whether it is worth it or not to add the LGBT category for ease of access to interested Vsbattles wiki visitors and members who are interested in such things.

In addition, wouldn't we be obliged to create a "Heterosexual Characters" category as well in that case? I am not looking forward to us wasting time on adding that to 20,000+ pages.

That would be redundant. LGBT, at it's most inclusive form , is an umbrella term that covers every sexuality that cannot be considered paraphilia or heterosexuality by definition.

Of course, it also covers every gender that's not cisgendered.

I'm not the best person to ask about this but any issues in definition can be easily resolved as long as we have a good explanation page.

Then again, we already have quite a lot of rather confining and redundant character categories, and if our LGBTQ members would feel happy and empowered from easily finding such characters (and there are quite a lot of really good such characters around, such as Moondragon, Ivankov, Mystique, Giorno, etc.), it isn't like I want to take that away from them. Take note that there would have to be a consensus here though. Single members cannot proclaim that they speak for everybody who is LGBTQ here.

Yeah, basically the reason why I don't think we should do anything yet. It doesn't really make sense to do something that the community isn't behind one hundred percent, as long as they have reasonable concerns and if they don't think it's worth the effort then there's no point in continuing.

Also, most people are talking about the LGBT category but we should remember I posited two tags. The other one is gender non-conformity, one of the things LGBT does not cover (to my knowledge).

 

[Damage3245]

No Ant, this is clearly discriminating. This is literally just to separate the society instead of cooperating with each other. Having an LGBT category is truly unfair to others who are not members of the LGBT community. Then, let's also add a category for Black people. So BLM members can also be happy within it? There are tons of movements, let's also add the feminist category. I am not here trying to be against anyone, but having an LGBT category is actually unfair.

Please don't be childish and actually try to describe this as being unfair to non-LGBT characters.

It's also painfully transparent that you're insisting on these issues just to be difficult when you see it as being irrelevant to the wiki in the first place.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Damn, you deleted my comment. Yap seems unfair. Alright, I will stop this

 

[Antvasima]

"LGBT is an umbrella terminology that covers the gender identity, and sexuality of an individual that differs from that of cisgendered and heterosexual characters. When adding a character to this category please note the character must be stated to be canonically representative of the LGBT community. Visual depictions such as transforming by supernatural means, wearing different clothes, or expressing oneself in a manner more beholden to the opposite sex is not enough evidence as most characters still consider themselves to be of their biological sex when they do such actions, something that is reflective of the flexibility of real world gender identity."

I do not mind using something close to the above text for the "LGBTQ" category.

However, I think that a "Non-conformity" category seems redundant as an extra addition, and I thought that it was covered by the "Q", or would we need to add a "+" sign for that?

 

[Colonel_Krukov]

Damn, you deleted my comment. Yap seems unfair. Alright, I will stop this

Staff Only thread, if you want to comment, ask a staff member in the future please

 

[Kachon123]

Well, they are definitely homosexual at least,

Assuming that Okamaitachi is a transgender woman, they would not be homosexual given the fact that they have been shown to be attracted to male identifying characters.

Assuming that Okamaitachi is a cisgendered man, then them being homosexual would make sense. Okamaitachi not being trans is supported by them going into the men's bathhouse and Iaian and Bushidrill, Okamaitachi's closest friends, referring to them with male pronouns.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, all non-staff members, please stop responding to this thread to avoid time-consuming chaos and controversy.Thank you.

Also, I think that some people perceive this to be a bigger deal than it really is. As long as we have good quality-control standards, this is just about indexing convenience and does not cause any harm.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Unfortunately you will now have to be relocated into the VSBW-brand juicer for your crimes. Apologies in advance for you conversation into a meat smoothie.

Jokes aside, I don't think I got quite which side you're supporting.

I'm in favor of the category being added. Since my concerns with the standards have been addressed (since it seems like characters being LGBT without statements is fine), I don't have many issues as of right now. Since the topic of indexing GNC characters has come up, that's obviously good too.

Also, no, we don't need a heterosexual category.

I do not mind using something close to the above text for the LGBTQ category.

I thought that gender non-conformity was covered by the "Q", or would we need to add a "+" sign for that?

Q usually stands for queer or questioning, which covers a significant number of identities, but there are of course people who don't use either of those terms for themselves. LGBTQ+ would be preferable, I think.

The above text is fine, but please remove the statement about being stated to be LGBTQ+. Using statements alone is a bad idea based on the reasons I gave above, and if that's what's agreed upon here, the draft should be changed accordingly.

 

[Antvasima]

Assuming that Okamaitachi is a transgender woman, they would not be homosexual given the fact that they have been shown to be attracted to male identifying characters.

Assuming that Okamaitachi is a cisgendered man, then them being homosexual would make sense. Okamaitachi not being trans is supported by them going into the men's bathhouse and Iaian and Bushidrill, Okamaitachi's closest friends, referring to them with male pronouns.

Okay. It seems like they are likely a male homosexual then.

 

[Kachon123]

Who deleted my message? It was important to the conversation. Whoever did it, please undo if possible.

 

[Qawsedf234]

However, I think that a "Non-conformity" category seems redundant as an extra addition, and I thought that it was covered by the "Q", or would we need to add a "+" sign for that?

Q usually means Queer or Questioning. For the sake of the category it might be better to just do "LGBT+" or "LGBTQ+" since while more inclusive something like LGBTQIA+ can get wordy.