Level 5s and Power Scaling

[XDragnoir]

I have some problems with 3 of the Level 5s current Power Scaling.

Kakine: i can't understand why he isn't 8B or 7C in both keys, the reason to him being 7C is being more powerful than Mikoto, and this aplies to both keys, and the second key being stronger doesn't makes sense, for the same reason Accel's Shield is the same even for even pre-HS who doesn't has a single universal feat, Dark Matter is the same in all moments, the only thing that change is how he uses it, much like Accel.

Mikoto L6S: not exactly a powerscaling issue, but anyway, only her Lightnings and the Black Sphere should be H7A, physically she should be Unknown, and 8A with iron sand, since her L6 iron sand should be >= than her L5 strongest iron sand attacks, which are 8A and her other energy attacks should be comparable, and those things being H7A doesn't make sense since Gunha can fight against both.

Gunha: Gunha is currently 8B because he scales from Kiyama, but he also has a feat of destroying an iron sand sphere made by L6S, which should be an 8A feat as i said above.

I also want to add that i don't agree with pre-HS having H1C shields, since having 2 times more calc speed =/= having knowledge of magic enough to reflect a H1C magick attack based in the Sephirot, but i'm not saying we should downgrade it since i know none will agree with it.

 

[TFSCell]

I agree with the scaling. Especially for Kakine, but I guess that's where the "likely higher" comes into play.

 

[XDragnoir]

Okay, thank you. Btw, do you think this might affect others?

 

[TFSCell]

I think most would agree. If you're talking about scaling then I think Kakine would get an "at least 7-C". Gunha is a mystery however. I personally believe that if he and Mikoto were to get in a fight he'd win.

 

[Scrlk666777]

Kakine is not Accelerator and their abilities work in different ways. Accelerator's work on the basis of what he understands while Kakine;s work on a more creative basis. Kakine's 7-C feat also comes from the fact he can spread DM, if I remember correctly anyway, something he couldn't do before he became actual dark matter itself. So he would still remain "At least 8-B, likley far higher", unless you can give us a feat in OT15 that would suggest otherwise.

I'll see what others say about Misaka and Gunha though.

 

[XDragnoir]

He is 7C because someone said he is stronger than Mikoto's max output since he is the #2, he being able to spread DM never was calced as 7C, and like i said before, Dark Matter is the same thing in both keys (btw, i think he used DM to breakdown/absorb the arm of a guy in his manga) and Rensa is also 7C.

 

[TIHYDDWBE]

In the case of Mikoto I find his is one of those things where Toaru is treated differently to other verses and downplayed for the sake of it.

Logically if someone had High 7a lightning outputs of energy, that amount of energy can also be put into her iron sand.

it's just catergorizing every single move based on the destructive capacity shown when we have seen a much higher attack potency in her most basic attacks. it's silly.

Also i'm not even gunna talk about Kakine being 1000s of times weaker than Misaka. That is a joke in of itself that no fan of the series would ever believe.


Kakine being stronger post revival makes sense because he gains a deeper understanding of his power right before he loses to accelerator, considering the worlds military and every esper in academy city as nothing. I believe it's this which creates the higher power level for him post revival. That and perhaps the time he in lue he spent, probably had more time to train/control his ability further

I also want to add that i don't agree with pre-HS having H1C shields, since having 2 times more calc speed =/= having knowledge of magic enough to reflect a H1C magick attack based in the Sephirot,

 

[TFSCell]

I'm pretty sure Kakine is leagues ahead of Mikoto. He made Mugino retreat in their fight whereas she felt confident enough to have a drawn out one with Mikoto.

 

[Scrlk666777]

The problem with Kakine is that he doesn't have any actual feats Pre-DM to give him a higher AP than 8-B. He can't scale to Accelerator, which I went over why in another thread a while ago and we can't just make him 7-C because he is the #2 and therefore his power output may be stronger. Powers don't work like that and Kakine's power is more based on creation and durability than pure destructive power. It could be but we just haven't seen it yet.

I do agree somewhat that it puts the scaling off in a way since it just look weird that Misaka has a higher AP than Kakine.

 

[Accelerate420]

Pre-head shot scales to High 1-C because Vectors are vectors. We've had this discussions dozens of times. Accelerator's ability to tank and redirect stronger vectors doesn't change between versions of him. That's not how it works, thus, he back-scales. Whether he has knowledge or not is irrelevant when he still showed a capacity to manipulate the vectors. Simple stuff. Even if it was a High 1-C punch, it would still get redirected because-- it has a vector. The fact that it's a magic attack doesn't negate the back-scaling, that's flawed logic.

 

[XDragnoir]

Gunha was able to easily destroy the giant iron sand attack, if she really using H7A eletricity in this he should be H7A in AP the same way he is in Dura, and Mikoto Dura should also be H7A, since at the moment she has Multi City Block level dura (8A) for withstanding attacks from Gunha, who is 8B at the moment.

Pre Revival kakine being weaker than Gunha (if my scaling makes sense), mikoto and Rensa doesn't make sense, i think both should his keys should be 7C.

 

[TFSCell]

The problem with Kakine is that he doesn't have any actual feats Pre-DM to give him a higher AP than 8-B. He can't scale to Accelerator, which I went over why in another thread a while ago and we can't just make him 7-C because he is the #2 and therefore his power output may be stronger. Powers don't work like that and Kakine's power is more based on creation and durability than pure destructive power. It could be but we just haven't seen it yet.

I do agree somewhat that it puts the scaling off in a way since it just look weird that Misaka has a higher AP than Kakine.

I understand that, but I still think that Kakine should get the 7-C ranking. But, I guess that's where the likely higher comes into play.

 

[XDragnoir]

Pre-head shot scales to High 1-C because Vectors are vectors. We've had this discussions dozens of times. Accelerator's ability to tank and redirect stronger vectors doesn't change between versions of him. That's not how it works, thus, he back-scales. Whether he has knowledge or not is irrelevant when he still showed a capacity to manipulate the vectors. Simple stuff. Even if it was a High 1-C punch, it would still get redirected because-- it has a vector. The fact that it's a magic attack doesn't negate the back-scaling, that's flawed logic.

Pre HS, actually, BW Accel wasn't able to redirect DM energy and needed to adapt the filter, WW Accel wasn't able to redirect Telesma Bomb, are you saying the Flaming Sword is easier to redirect than any of then? Btw, i know it is power null, but Touma has H1C punch.

 

[Scrlk666777]

Accelerate420

Exactly. Magnitude doesn't matter, it never has. You hit him with a bullet or a universal attack, as long as he understands it, he will reflect it. It;s just that many didn't want to believe this fact until it was blatanly presented in front of them with Coronzon's attack, even in NT4, Kamachi basically says Accelerator's reflection has a limitless ceiling while comparing him with another character.

Xdragonir

Kakine's not weaker, it's why he has an At least and likely way higher next to his tier because we only have a basis of Kakine's tier which scales from his fight with Mugino, the only one who he can really scale to. We know he's stronger than her and Mikoto we just don't know what his true tier is. It's the same as Gunha, he's probably way above 8-B. I mean Mikoto's scaling itself is off as well with the fact that her strongest attack is weaker than her lightning strikes.

The scaling for Toaru in general is pretty messed up to be quite honest.

 

[Accelerate420]

Pre-head shot scales to High 1-C because Vectors are vectors. We've had this discussions dozens of times. Accelerator's ability to tank and redirect stronger vectors doesn't change between versions of him. That's not how it works, thus, he back-scales. Whether he has knowledge or not is irrelevant when he still showed a capacity to manipulate the vectors. Simple stuff. Even if it was a High 1-C punch, it would still get redirected because-- it has a vector. The fact that it's a magic attack doesn't negate the back-scaling, that's flawed logic.

Pre HS, actually, BW Accel wasn't able to redirect DM energy and needed to adapt the filter, WW Accel wasn't able to redirect Telesma Bomb, are you saying the Flaming Sword is easier to redirect than any of then? Btw, i know it is power null, but Touma has H1C punch.

That's what I siad. PRe-HS back-scales because of the logic behind how vectors work. Yes, he had to adapt, but that doesn't mean he can't redirect a high 1-C attack if it wasn't Magic. It's simple.

 

[Scrlk666777]

XDragnoir He was never attacked with DM while in black wings, he also changed the filter before then anyway. Also it wasn't the fact he couldn't reflect it, in fact he could the issue was Kakine could change the properties of his dark matter to things that Accelerator did allow in like light.

Also him understanding something has no bearing on the magnitude of what he can reflect.

 

[TIHYDDWBE]

statistically speaking misaka mikoto is stronger than kakine. it says so. right on the profiles. likely way higher and at least doesn't mean anything at all really. Misaka still holds a undeniable advantage when strictly reading the profiles.

I'm sure if i went and made a mikoto vs kakine thread im going to see hurr durr she oneshots with lightning.

>I mean Mikoto's scaling itself is off as well with the fact that her strongest attack is weaker than her lightning strikes.

thats the same issue i mentioned with L6S with her iron sand, except its her railgun and iron sand in base form. again, it is just taking destructive capacity over attack potency. could you imagine if we did this shit to dragon ball? ultra instinct goku 9a with punches, 8-c with kamehameha. the memes go on.

 

[XDragnoir]

Yeah, not while in Black Wings, but any boost of knowledge granted by black wings should still be there

 

[TFSCell]

statistically speaking misaka mikoto is stronger than kakine. it says so. right on the profiles. likely way higher and at least doesn't mean anything at all really. Misaka still holds a undeniable advantage when strictly reading the profiles.

I'm sure if i went and made a mikoto vs kakine thread im going to see hurr durr she oneshots with lightning.

That's why i'm for 7-C Kakine. Plus, Mugino ran from him twice. He's undeniably stronger than Mikoto.

 

[XDragnoir]

That's what I siad. PRe-HS back-scales because of the logic behind how vectors work. Yes, he had to adapt, but that doesn't mean he can't redirect a high 1-C attack if it wasn't Magic. It's simple.

If he can't redirect H1C magic, what says he can redirect a H1C bullet? As far as we know he can reflect anything he can understand, do we know if he understand H1C objects physics?

 

[Scrlk666777]

TIHYDDWBE

Truth be told I don't mind if we upgrade Kakine to 7-C. I'm surprised no one has tried to put an argument forward to why he should scale to Accelerator. I mean the only real issue is feats.

Yeah, the scaling needs work. I do agree that Toaru does get the downplayed quite a lot. I read the thread where they wanted to downgrade the verse to Low 2-C, which imo would have been downplaying the verse to the extreme. Low 1-C I would have accepted, even High 2-A but Low 2-C? That was really going too far.

 

[TFSCell]

I agree completely, it was due to some new dimension law and such. Luckily, it didn't happen.

 

[Accelerate420]

That's what I siad. PRe-HS back-scales because of the logic behind how vectors work. Yes, he had to adapt, but that doesn't mean he can't redirect a high 1-C attack if it wasn't Magic. It's simple.

If he can't redirect H1C magic, what says he can redirect a H1C bullet? As far as we know he can reflect anything he can understand, do we know if he understand H1C objects physics?

Because Direction = reflect. He knows what a bullet is too, so this is fallicious.

 

[XDragnoir]

Because Direction = reflect. He knows what a bullet is too, so this is fallicious.

He doesn't know what a H1C bullet is, how physics aplies to them, their speed, their size, he doesn't even know if they exist or not, but for some reason he has knowledge enough to redirect but thing that are simply from outside our universe (DM and Telesma) he is unable to redirect, right.

 

[Scrlk666777]

If he can't redirect H1C magic, what says he can redirect a H1C bullet? As far as we know he can reflect anything he can understand, do we know if he understand H1C objects physics?

That's another argument.

Reflection goes up to High 1-C because as shown with Coronzon's attack it doesn't care about magnitude.

Magnitude and the understanding side of things are two completely different things. If Accelerator can understand he can reflect it, no matter the magnitude, if he can't then he could easily get outdone by someone who is only 9-A.

 

[XDragnoir]

I didn't say he can't reflect a 9A attack, i agree with the magnitude argument, but the Knowledge argument is the problem, we don't know if he know how to reflect H1C attacks, we only know that he can reflect them if he knows how them works, and this doesn't makes sense.

 

[Scrlk666777]

Well it's not like anyone should put him against actual H1C characters. He would get destroyed for multiple reasons. He himself is not H1C only his reflection.

 

[Accelerate420]

Because Direction = reflect. He knows what a bullet is too, so this is fallicious.

He doesn't know what a H1C bullet is, how physics aplies to them, their speed, their size, he doesn't even know if they exist or not, but for some reason he has knowledge enough to redirect but thing that are simply from outside our universe (DM and Telesma) he is unable to redirect, right.

Please tell me you are not serious. A bullet = a bullet. Regardless of it's AP or not, it has a direction.

 

[XDragnoir]

11D bullets =/= 3D bullets

 

[Accelerate420]

Accelerator already knows how to calc 11-D as he prevents 11-D teleportation. So 11-D bullets = reflected.

 

[XDragnoir]

He can reflect 3D objects in 11D space, not 11D objects in 11D space. Anyway, this is derailing, since i said i don't want to downgrade pre HS Accel Shield

 

[Scrlk666777]

No he can reflect 11D things.

 

[Accelerate420]

That's irrelevant. Then by that logic, Coronzon's Flame Sword, which isn't 11-D, isn't High 1-C in the first place as it's not an 11-D object nor 11-D space.

The fact of the matter is: Vectors do not work the way you think it works, and neither does his ability. He doesn't need to know how an 11-D bullet works as it'll still be obeying 11-D physics regardless of if it's an object of that dimensions or not. Magic disregards physics. Therefore, he's more inclined to reflect and 11-D object than he is 11-D Magic. SImple stuff, yes? Espers literally are masters are calculating higher dimensions.

 

[Accelerate420]

The fact that magnitude doesn't matter means that it doesn't matter how many dimensions you stack up or your AP. You're arguing semantics of High 1-C and it's ultimately pointless.

 

[XDragnoir]

Can we return to talk abou Mikoto and Gunha now?

 

[TFSCell]

Yeah, I would like to do that too. I feel like Gunha is stronger than Mikoto, but we don't have the feats to suggest that.

 

[Scrlk666777]

XDragnoir

If you didn't want Accelerator to be mentioned then you shouldn't have put the whole High 1-C stuff in the OP, of course I and others were going to reply to that.

But yes we should get back to what really matters here.

 

[TFSCell]

I mean, it was stated if he knew how to control his power he'd be the strongest Esper in academy city. Quotes aside, I think he could scale to Mikoto.

 

[Scrlk666777]

No it did not. Where did you even get that from? It's never been stated Gunha would be the strongest esper if he knew what his powers would be.

 

[TIHYDDWBE]

Mikoto said she would lose to Gunha in a proper fight after their "battle". Gunha said if it continued he would of lost the "game" in fanfare. the game being that he could stand there and take all her attacks and outlast her and she would fall to exhaustion. people often misinterpret it as gunha saying that he would lose in a proper fight against misaka. he didn't. theres a big difference

by quotes alone, Gunha is > Misaka here.

Also the more determined he is the more powerful he is, seeing as he can fight L6S Misaka, take her hits, and overpower some of her attacks.