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Level 5s and Power Scaling
- Thread starter XDragnoir
- Start date
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That doesn't make Gunha the most powerful. I mean Accelerator is already on Ollerus' level, higher with Plat wings.
Also being able to defeat someone isn't always based on power. Ollerus hinted that the reason that Gunha would possibly be able to beat him if he knew what his power was, is because his power may be that inexplicable that it will be hard to stop.
The only one who could is Accelerator but that is only if he understood Ollerus' powers which there could be a debate I suppose, but then Ollerus' magic could be too inexplicable. It's hard to say.
Also being able to defeat someone isn't always based on power. Ollerus hinted that the reason that Gunha would possibly be able to beat him if he knew what his power was, is because his power may be that inexplicable that it will be hard to stop.
The only one who could is Accelerator but that is only if he understood Ollerus' powers which there could be a debate I suppose, but then Ollerus' magic could be too inexplicable. It's hard to say.
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I think this can ho in two ways for Mikoto and Gunha:
Both L6S Mikoto and Gunha become full H7A.
Or Mikoto has an better clarification of her AP, being 8A with Iron Sand and energy attacks, H7A with Black Sphere and Lightning, and Gunha becomes 8A scaling from the iron sand.
Kakine can also go in two ways:
Both keys become 7C (i think most, including myself, agree with it)
Both keys become 8B (is also a possibility, but i think most disagrees).
And i'm sorry for this confusion regarding Accel, i didn't think this would happen just by saying i disagree.
Both L6S Mikoto and Gunha become full H7A.
Or Mikoto has an better clarification of her AP, being 8A with Iron Sand and energy attacks, H7A with Black Sphere and Lightning, and Gunha becomes 8A scaling from the iron sand.
Kakine can also go in two ways:
Both keys become 7C (i think most, including myself, agree with it)
Both keys become 8B (is also a possibility, but i think most disagrees).
And i'm sorry for this confusion regarding Accel, i didn't think this would happen just by saying i disagree.
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Both Kakine keys don't need to be the same.
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I mean why do you want to upgrade Kakine but downgrade Accelerator so badly? Should we swap Accelerator and Kakine's tiers around?
Also wasn't the Gunha stuff already rejected not that long ago? Why is Mikoto High 7-A? I mean which attack, was it the energy sphere that was said to be able to crush more than Academy city or was it a calc done on her how much damage her electricity or what not could do?
Also wasn't the Gunha stuff already rejected not that long ago? Why is Mikoto High 7-A? I mean which attack, was it the energy sphere that was said to be able to crush more than Academy city or was it a calc done on her how much damage her electricity or what not could do?
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I don't want to downgrade Accel, and please don't bring this up again.Scrlk666777 said:
Pre Revival Kakine vs Base Mikoto, who would win? Mikoto, because she can AP stomp him, and Rensa (who i don't think is better than him with DM) is 7C. Maybe we could just put him in 7B like before, we have other characters that still scale to him. Rensa, for example, still has the same feats and tier Accel had pre-revisions.
The giant lightning she used in the Windowless Building was calced as H7A.
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No, not really. That's just what it seems like to me.
L6S Misaka doesn't really scale to anyone, so there has to be a feat or a calc that has her at High 7-A. I just can't remember what that feat or calc was, whether it was the lightning attack she used on the windowless building, the engergy sphere which was said to destroy more than Academy City or whether it was based off a calc.
I think it was her lightning attack on the windowless building.
L6S Misaka doesn't really scale to anyone, so there has to be a feat or a calc that has her at High 7-A. I just can't remember what that feat or calc was, whether it was the lightning attack she used on the windowless building, the engergy sphere which was said to destroy more than Academy City or whether it was based off a calc.
I think it was her lightning attack on the windowless building.
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Because Rensa scales to Kakine Post revival that's why she's 7-C and Mikoto doesn't stomp because of Kakine's durability. He has town level durability and it's known that he can defend against a railgun.
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Btw (i know i said to bring up this topic again, but anyways) i don't want pre HS accel to be downgraded, all i want is at least one note in the profile saying he is more limited in what types of things he can redirect than his pos HS key, since the latter is pretty much a magician right now.
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Yeah, but his AP should be comparable, since he uses the same DM for attack and defense, and if DM is more creativity based than other things, Kakine should be better at this than Rensa, and the only way he shows to be better post revival is the hax part of DM (the Absorption), the physical aspects are also noted to be "weaker" because he doesn't care if the clones are exploded, sliced, whatever.Scrlk666777 said:
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Rensa scales to DM Kakine. That's how it works, it doesn't matter whether or not Kakine is better at creating stuff, that's just how scaling works. That said I do think there needs to be a re-think about Rensa's 7-C DM key because if I rememer correctly, she hardly uses it opting to use Accelerator's powers instead for the majority of the fight.
On Kakine, the issue as I said before is feats. Kakine may be able to use his DM for attack but he has very little feats in that regard, the most damage he has done was to a street and that was with Accelerator's help and it's more of an outlier than anything.
Here are my thoughts
Kakine: At least 8-B, likely 7-C, likely higher.
Gunha: I'm not sold on High 7-A, but I do think that he should also be upgraded to 7-C or at least likely 7-C. So At least 8-B, likely 7-C. I am willing to hear more arguments where High 7-A is concerned.
To be honest, I do feel that Toaru is the only verse that has to abide by the feats and calc rule. I;ve seen charactes from other verses be upgraded simply by a character saying another character could defeat them.
On Kakine, the issue as I said before is feats. Kakine may be able to use his DM for attack but he has very little feats in that regard, the most damage he has done was to a street and that was with Accelerator's help and it's more of an outlier than anything.
Here are my thoughts
Kakine: At least 8-B, likely 7-C, likely higher.
Gunha: I'm not sold on High 7-A, but I do think that he should also be upgraded to 7-C or at least likely 7-C. So At least 8-B, likely 7-C. I am willing to hear more arguments where High 7-A is concerned.
To be honest, I do feel that Toaru is the only verse that has to abide by the feats and calc rule. I;ve seen charactes from other verses be upgraded simply by a character saying another character could defeat them.
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That;s why the "At least" is before the 8-B and why "likely higher" is after because Mugino is only a base scale because there is no one else to really scale him to based on feats alone. The only other ones he has fought against were Rensa and Accelerator.
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Actually I don't mind upgrading to 7-C at all for Kakine, I've only really had a problem when he was scaled to Accelerator but he should be 7-C.
So what about Gunha?
So what about Gunha?
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Mikoto is basically the root of this recurrent issue. The problem is the fact anyone reading/watching the series should see that her different types of attacks don't have the same power behind them. Simply compare the damage she causes using her magnetism to throw metallic objects to the damage she causes with a coin Railgun or with her electricity, despite all those being valid attacks. This also applies to her L6S state. We see that some of the attacks she uses then are her picking wreckage with magnetism and throwing it at Touma and Gunha, and we see that when she throws individual pieces of wreckage at Touma they clearly don't have the same amount of power that even the coin Railgun of her weaker base form has despite being much larger objects launched by a much more powerful form. So there's an undeniable difference between the kind of AP she produces when she uses just magnetism to throw things that when she uses a Railgun, even when it's a stronger version of herself.
As for her other L6S stuff, her lighting attacks are easily dealt with by Touma and Gunha in that form, and all we know about her iron sand is that it's stronger, given she doesn't use it much in this fight for attacks. All that we have left then are the weird energy attacks, which have the feat of launching Gunha far away when taking him by surprise (which we now know from Astral Buddy lowers his defenses significantly) and temporarily disabling him by putting him into a wall offpanel without giving him serious injuries. So yeah, considering Gunha has a anti-electric forcefield that already scales to L6S Mikoto's electric attacks, what we could do with this fight is scale Gunha's higher Durability ceiling to the energy attacks and his power's AP to her iron sand shield, but I don't think you'll get an upgrade from those given the lack of feats.
So the obvious issue here is with Mikoto's lightning. The calcs for Mikoto's lightning make it much stronger than any of her other feats, so obviously people want her other attacks to scale to it. All her other attacks consistently perform at a much lower level so the lightning is the clear outlier. The only thing that comes close to implying the same level of power in the novels/manga is a throwaway mention in OT1 that her coin Railgun can take out a nuclear shelter, and none of her coin feats or stronger Railguns reflect that. In the Railgun SS3 a reinforced wall of an AC building manages to tank it, bringing even that lone statement into question. Her electricity is much like real life's in that it has a lot of energy compared to the actual physical damage it's going to cause. Hell, in Railgun SS3 Hinadori Hanakawa attacks her by puppeteering biker suits made of leather, and while her multiple casual lightning attacks don't cause them any damage besides burning the suit's leather, once she figures the suits are empty she uses her coin Railgun to easily obliterate the two suits since they are just biker suits and being able to resist electricity doesn't mean you can take technically weaker piercing physical attacks, because electricity doesn't work the same as physical projectiles moving at high speeds to pierce a target, even if they both use the same power source (Mikoto).
I am of the firm opinion that Mikoto's attacks should not scale to the calcs for her lightning without significant feats and evidence that proves otherwise. Thus I think that L6S should have a clarification of her other attacks not scaling to her lightning and instead having 8-A iron sand and energy attacks.
For Gunha, he should scale to the higher ouput of Mikoto's iron sand, yeah. I agree with him being 8-A. Although he needs a revision in general given Astral Buddy.
As for Kakine, the best feats Kakine has in OT is easily defeating Mugino offpage and slicing a building in half vertically with his wings. That's pretty much it. He shouldn't scale to Accelerator in terms of raw power, because the fight is Accelerator overpowering him a couple of times and Kakine tanking being launched into buildings and such because of his power, followed by Kakine adjusting his DM to bypass Accelerator's reflection. A few clashes later Accelerator adapts his redirection to Dark Matter and stomps Kakine in a single move. This doesn't imply power parity, it implies the weaker character putting up a bit of a fight using smarts/trickery/hax and what not until the stronger character decides to end the fight and stomps the weaker character.
In NT he clashes a bit more evenly with Rensa when she's using Accelerator's powers and only gets defeated when she pulls out the black wings and he takes a hit for Touma, taking him out for the rest of the fight, which is why he currently scales to her.
I personally have no issue scaling Kakine to 7-C, but he lacks feats in that kind of level so it would be just scaling him to Mikoto. Like, assuming it was a reference to her even the comparison he makes in the DM manga is about his wings resisting a railgun blast, because the story still treats it as her strongest attack despite feats demonstrating otherwise, just like it still pretends an arcade coin going at Mach 3 is supposedly impressive. And for all we know, if the two were to fight Kakine would just make his wings completely insulated and just 'lol nope' all her electric attacks (don't take this last sentence seriously, it's just a theory as to how it might go if written by Kamachi).
As for her other L6S stuff, her lighting attacks are easily dealt with by Touma and Gunha in that form, and all we know about her iron sand is that it's stronger, given she doesn't use it much in this fight for attacks. All that we have left then are the weird energy attacks, which have the feat of launching Gunha far away when taking him by surprise (which we now know from Astral Buddy lowers his defenses significantly) and temporarily disabling him by putting him into a wall offpanel without giving him serious injuries. So yeah, considering Gunha has a anti-electric forcefield that already scales to L6S Mikoto's electric attacks, what we could do with this fight is scale Gunha's higher Durability ceiling to the energy attacks and his power's AP to her iron sand shield, but I don't think you'll get an upgrade from those given the lack of feats.
So the obvious issue here is with Mikoto's lightning. The calcs for Mikoto's lightning make it much stronger than any of her other feats, so obviously people want her other attacks to scale to it. All her other attacks consistently perform at a much lower level so the lightning is the clear outlier. The only thing that comes close to implying the same level of power in the novels/manga is a throwaway mention in OT1 that her coin Railgun can take out a nuclear shelter, and none of her coin feats or stronger Railguns reflect that. In the Railgun SS3 a reinforced wall of an AC building manages to tank it, bringing even that lone statement into question. Her electricity is much like real life's in that it has a lot of energy compared to the actual physical damage it's going to cause. Hell, in Railgun SS3 Hinadori Hanakawa attacks her by puppeteering biker suits made of leather, and while her multiple casual lightning attacks don't cause them any damage besides burning the suit's leather, once she figures the suits are empty she uses her coin Railgun to easily obliterate the two suits since they are just biker suits and being able to resist electricity doesn't mean you can take technically weaker piercing physical attacks, because electricity doesn't work the same as physical projectiles moving at high speeds to pierce a target, even if they both use the same power source (Mikoto).
I am of the firm opinion that Mikoto's attacks should not scale to the calcs for her lightning without significant feats and evidence that proves otherwise. Thus I think that L6S should have a clarification of her other attacks not scaling to her lightning and instead having 8-A iron sand and energy attacks.
For Gunha, he should scale to the higher ouput of Mikoto's iron sand, yeah. I agree with him being 8-A. Although he needs a revision in general given Astral Buddy.
As for Kakine, the best feats Kakine has in OT is easily defeating Mugino offpage and slicing a building in half vertically with his wings. That's pretty much it. He shouldn't scale to Accelerator in terms of raw power, because the fight is Accelerator overpowering him a couple of times and Kakine tanking being launched into buildings and such because of his power, followed by Kakine adjusting his DM to bypass Accelerator's reflection. A few clashes later Accelerator adapts his redirection to Dark Matter and stomps Kakine in a single move. This doesn't imply power parity, it implies the weaker character putting up a bit of a fight using smarts/trickery/hax and what not until the stronger character decides to end the fight and stomps the weaker character.
In NT he clashes a bit more evenly with Rensa when she's using Accelerator's powers and only gets defeated when she pulls out the black wings and he takes a hit for Touma, taking him out for the rest of the fight, which is why he currently scales to her.
I personally have no issue scaling Kakine to 7-C, but he lacks feats in that kind of level so it would be just scaling him to Mikoto. Like, assuming it was a reference to her even the comparison he makes in the DM manga is about his wings resisting a railgun blast, because the story still treats it as her strongest attack despite feats demonstrating otherwise, just like it still pretends an arcade coin going at Mach 3 is supposedly impressive. And for all we know, if the two were to fight Kakine would just make his wings completely insulated and just 'lol nope' all her electric attacks (don't take this last sentence seriously, it's just a theory as to how it might go if written by Kamachi).
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No, Kakine would have never stomped Pre-headshot or any version of Accelerator. Kakine also never awakened.NoTFSCell said:
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@TIHYDDWBE
I would suggest rereading my post, because you missed my point completely. I never said the billion volts wasn't true, that I didn't believe it or confused destructive capacity with attack potency. I just pointed out the undeniable facts that it's a lot stronger than her other attacks in terms of energy, but like real world lightning that energy is not going to do that much physical damage. Thus, her other attacks cannot be scaled to it. When I said that the calcs of her lighting are stronger than her other feats I'm obviously talking about her other attacks like railgun, iron sand, magnetic throws, etc.
@Malox1696
I didn't say that. I said that the "railgun can destroy a nuclear shelter" thing is a throwaway line, because as far as I know it it was only said in OT1.
I would suggest rereading my post, because you missed my point completely. I never said the billion volts wasn't true, that I didn't believe it or confused destructive capacity with attack potency. I just pointed out the undeniable facts that it's a lot stronger than her other attacks in terms of energy, but like real world lightning that energy is not going to do that much physical damage. Thus, her other attacks cannot be scaled to it. When I said that the calcs of her lighting are stronger than her other feats I'm obviously talking about her other attacks like railgun, iron sand, magnetic throws, etc.
@Malox1696
I didn't say that. I said that the "railgun can destroy a nuclear shelter" thing is a throwaway line, because as far as I know it it was only said in OT1.
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Yea that may be, but we do know that if given a efficient medium like the AAA , she can channel her full power with a railgun , but she keeps using arcade coins
A moment later, all sound and light vanished. It did not move at three times the speed of sound. It did not have the small mass of an arcade coin. This blast had been made to create a crater out of a fortress designed to withstand even the most powerful tank. In all seriousness, a slight mistake in calculation would have swept away an entire section of Academy City's buildings. If the District 7's Windowless Building had not acted as a cushion, the damage would have spread without end.
A moment later, all sound and light vanished. It did not move at three times the speed of sound. It did not have the small mass of an arcade coin. This blast had been made to create a crater out of a fortress designed to withstand even the most powerful tank. In all seriousness, a slight mistake in calculation would have swept away an entire section of Academy City's buildings. If the District 7's Windowless Building had not acted as a cushion, the damage would have spread without end.
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I agree with Lazy hunter, the major problem is Misaka's scaling. It's statements vs. feats, where the latter very much contradicts the former, like her Railgun being able to destroy a nuclear shelter but feats prove otherwise. That said that statement might have been talking about the most powerful version of her Railgun, one used with bigger projectiles. I can't remember her ever using anything other than a coin though, but my memory might be a bit hazy there. So, the statement itself could be true but not true for the coined Railgun.
I think it's her lightning strikes that's causing the most issues though as well as her Level 6 shift.
Also, this is just a little nitpick from me and can be ignored but I don't think the fact when she reaches level 6 she will destroy the city is really needed on her profile. My reasons for this is firstly because her energy sphere is stated to do more damage than her exploding anyway, as it's stated it would not just destroy Academy City but multiple cities if it was released and secondly Misaka at level 6 would never be used since she would only last one attack and be a mindless being on top of that. I don't know it just seems a bit pointless having it on there, like I said it's only a little nitpick from me.
I think Gunha should be upgraded to 8-A for now. I suppose, depending if Mikoto's profile just get another look and change, we could put "At least 8-A, possibly 7-C" If Gunha appears more in AB or even GT, we might get more feats but right now all we have is the feats we have seen and the one statement from Misaka that he would beat her in a proper fight. As I said above though, beating someone doesn't always mean you are more powerful. We won't ever know unless the two have a proper fight against each other.
I'm fine with Kakine being upgraded to 7-C, although Lazy does bring up a good point about Kakine being more of a hax character.
Actually, I was wondering if I should do a Rensa CRT? The current scaling for Accelerator after NT22, has also put the scaling for some characters out whack, and Rensa could be one of them that could also mess up the scaling, depending how we want to scale her, especially in Accel's key.
I think it's her lightning strikes that's causing the most issues though as well as her Level 6 shift.
Also, this is just a little nitpick from me and can be ignored but I don't think the fact when she reaches level 6 she will destroy the city is really needed on her profile. My reasons for this is firstly because her energy sphere is stated to do more damage than her exploding anyway, as it's stated it would not just destroy Academy City but multiple cities if it was released and secondly Misaka at level 6 would never be used since she would only last one attack and be a mindless being on top of that. I don't know it just seems a bit pointless having it on there, like I said it's only a little nitpick from me.
I think Gunha should be upgraded to 8-A for now. I suppose, depending if Mikoto's profile just get another look and change, we could put "At least 8-A, possibly 7-C" If Gunha appears more in AB or even GT, we might get more feats but right now all we have is the feats we have seen and the one statement from Misaka that he would beat her in a proper fight. As I said above though, beating someone doesn't always mean you are more powerful. We won't ever know unless the two have a proper fight against each other.
I'm fine with Kakine being upgraded to 7-C, although Lazy does bring up a good point about Kakine being more of a hax character.
Actually, I was wondering if I should do a Rensa CRT? The current scaling for Accelerator after NT22, has also put the scaling for some characters out whack, and Rensa could be one of them that could also mess up the scaling, depending how we want to scale her, especially in Accel's key.
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I agree with the railgun part, btw, she used the iron sand railgun and a stell ball railgun in her manga.
8A gunha seems fine, idk about possibly 7C, he having a bigger output than mikoto isn't as necessary as it is to Kakine.
Kakine is indeed more hax, but most of people agrees he doesn't has most of them in base, and he resisting a railgun is obvious, coin railguns are 8C, kakine is 8B currently. Maybe we should also add up to 8A to her bigger railguns?
A think a Rensa (and other characters who scale to Accel) CRT should be good.
8A gunha seems fine, idk about possibly 7C, he having a bigger output than mikoto isn't as necessary as it is to Kakine.
Kakine is indeed more hax, but most of people agrees he doesn't has most of them in base, and he resisting a railgun is obvious, coin railguns are 8C, kakine is 8B currently. Maybe we should also add up to 8A to her bigger railguns?
A think a Rensa (and other characters who scale to Accel) CRT should be good.
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Btw, after reading the 7C calc for Mikoto's lighting, her 1 Billion lightnings varies in ap from L7C to H7C at "perfect" conditions, and the 7C rating comes from a 7 meter away electric spear she used against Touma, i think we should have that in mind while scaling Kakine to her Max output.
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Xdragonir
No one really scales to Accelearator but Rensa's Accelerator key does need some discussing. Accelerator is a very hard person to scale against, mostly due to how his powers works.
I will make a Rensa CRT in a bit.
I think 7-C Kakine and 8-A Gunha has been mostly agreed upon.
I do think there needs to be further discussions on Misaka;s lightning strikes and her L6S form.
No one really scales to Accelearator but Rensa's Accelerator key does need some discussing. Accelerator is a very hard person to scale against, mostly due to how his powers works.
I will make a Rensa CRT in a bit.
I think 7-C Kakine and 8-A Gunha has been mostly agreed upon.
I do think there needs to be further discussions on Misaka;s lightning strikes and her L6S form.
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7-C is more than enough for Kakine, he's already getting this tier without any actual real feats to back it up, let's not push it.
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Her profile only says 7-C, she doesn't even have a "at least" that's all that matters here. Kakine will scale to that.
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Yeah, he doesn't have much feats to go off of. He fought pretty evenly against a nerfed Accelerator who wasn't taking him seriously. He then proceeded to get destroyed in the ending of the fight. The only thing we can really go off of with him is Muginos fight with him. Him being the second ranked. Also his fight with Mugino and Accelerator.
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Yeah, Kakine never really fought evenly against Accelerator since the latter was pretty much holding back the entireity of the first fight and the only slight damage he did was through hax. He never really fought equally in the second battle either, he mostly stood back and used the DM sisters on Accelerator, which caused him to have a near mental break down which caused his powers to stop working, I'm not sure if Kakine knew this or not though. Kakine was pretty much waiting for the electrode to run out of battery, so he could finish Accel or hope that the wings come out. Kakine himself has admitted that he can't defeat Accelerator without playing dirty mostly because he can't get past reflection now.
Kakine's second fight wasn't really about power, but about the fact he was hard to kill and for someone who has a time limit, it's a bit of a mismatch.
Anyway, Kakine is pretty much agreed on at this point. 7-C.
Kakine's second fight wasn't really about power, but about the fact he was hard to kill and for someone who has a time limit, it's a bit of a mismatch.
Anyway, Kakine is pretty much agreed on at this point. 7-C.
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I don't care, it's been decided. 7-C, let's just leave it at that.
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It was prior to the fight.
Of course Kakine wasn't scared of Accelerator in their second fight, that wasn't because he suddenly thought he could fight equally with Accelerator but because he knew Accelerator couldn't kill him and that eventually Accel would become powerless unless his wings came out. Kakine also isn't the type to fear anybody anyway, he's too much of a confident and cocky b******d for that. He could face someone like a Magic god and he would still act the same.
Of course Kakine wasn't scared of Accelerator in their second fight, that wasn't because he suddenly thought he could fight equally with Accelerator but because he knew Accelerator couldn't kill him and that eventually Accel would become powerless unless his wings came out. Kakine also isn't the type to fear anybody anyway, he's too much of a confident and cocky b******d for that. He could face someone like a Magic god and he would still act the same.
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