Let's destroy this universe (Vivec vs. Caine)

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

Without time there is no sequence of cause and effect. So logically no.

However maybe in a fiction verse? You cannot say this is the case for every verse just because a few verses have this principle.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

Yes he can. He can also completely fodderize Caine by manipulating his nymic like he did with Azura.

I'm pretty sure he needs Caine's "true name" to do that and I don't think he even has one unless verse equalisation and somehow Vivec finds it out.

 

[Ogbunabali]

AKA created the platonic concept of time which is only present in Mundus. Vivec exists outside the platonic form of time which is why he has type 5, while a generic "exists outside of time" statement gives you a type 4 at best because we assume it means a higher temporal dimension, not the actual platonic concept you need prettt good evidence to make someone go type 5 with just a statement of being above time.

Also Vivec doesn't need CHIM at all. No matter what Caine does to him he just resets and can just manipulates Caine's nymic ro turn him into fodder.

 

[TheVoidWalker69]

My vote's for Vivec

 

[Wokistan]

Being outside time on its own with nothing else isn't acausal 5 and you don't always necessarily become acausal 5 from affecting acausal 5s, as opposed to just the ability to affect them/them not being acausal 5.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

Why not?

 

[Wokistan]

Cause some fiction is weird like that. For example how a lot of psykers/daemons can manipulate the Warp which by default has no causality unless someone forces some form onto it, but that doesn't mean they're all unbound from it in general.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

No I mean why isn't outside time beyond causality.

 

[Wokistan]

That gives everyone with infinite speed acausal 5, and timeless spaces still are usually depicted with some sort of cause/effect relationships. For acausal 5 you basically have to have it portrayed as making you impossible to affect normally.

 

[Udlmaster]

Hehhehhehehehheheh ahahhahahahaha I have gained my freedom ahahhahahahaha.


Anyway, Caine can affect Vivic as he can affect Platonic concepts and fight using them, as well as affecting Angels and Demons as well as being able to Fight Lilith who is on a level of transduality that is beyond Taiji/Wuji (Where Wuji was before differentiations and can be considered Unity).

As well as Caine having Passive powers like disbelief hax which can power null all of the Mage's abilities by him simply not believing they exist and can disbelieve Vivic out of Existence passively and incap him.

Obviously Caine cannot get past True-Godly, not until I get WoD into 1-A that's is, but Caine has the abilities for an Incap victory.

Caine May have a True Name but Archmages can break and protect themselves from sympathy and remove their own True Names, but it is unknown if Caine has one.

On top of all this Caine's hax are on this Low 1-C / High 1-C Level and then has the seven-fold curse which deals 7 times the damage Caine receives and 7 times the painful death if Caine dies from his curse, which was given to him by God, who is Infinite infinities above Beings who are MASSIVELY above Baseline High1-C.

To push the point even further, Caine can manipulate, create and destroy Spirits, which in WoD, Spirits are philosophies, ideas, mathematical formula, concepts, hypothesis, psychological thesis and Religious Belief.

And to add the nail to this bible coffin, Caine can control the Narrative and Hypernarrative on a level above the Author (GM/Storyteller)

 

[Ogbunabali]

Well WoD's platonic concepts aren't accepted so until they are he can't.

He can't incap, even assuming he can touch him, as Vivec can reset himself and eventually either uses his nymic to fodderize him or goes CHIM and ends it.

 

[Udlmaster]

Yes, they're still "False" (which is incredibly dumb on a Platonic Level) and still act exactly like a Platonic concept, just not considered by Vsbattle to be 1-A which is irrelevant to my argument as I wasn't talking about power.

I also brought up how Caine has passive EE to stop Vivec from reforming and without proof, there's nothing to show that Vivec can do anything while he's mid Regenerationn, most of all when he's being erased on a Narrative Level.

So, can just keeps him stuck regen for all of eternity.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Oh, but that won't make him interact with a type 5 acasual though.

Vivec has true godly so EE isn't doing anything.

 

[Udlmaster]

Well, yes, as Type 2 can affect Type 5s, and Platonic, even if not on a 1-A level are beyond cause and effect, if you want I do have the statement from the Timaeus that states they're Platonic concepts are uninvolved in causality, unchanging, entirely non-physical.

And yes, nothing Caine can currently do can put down Vivec, as he just regens from it, however, it doesn't mean it doesn't erase him, as it will still erase him, he just comes back. But this is where the Passive comes into effect, as Vivec is now stuck trying to regen but not being able to keep any form as he's being constantly erased before he can do anything, meaning he's stuck in this cycle;


Caine erases Vivec on a level beyond all things and narratives.

Vivec goes to regenerate and goes to materialise

The exact moment Vivec regens on any level, he's erased again.

Repeat ad infinium

 

[PsychoWarper]

Tempted to put 3-A Reinhard against Low 2-C Vivec now lmao

Ok so 3-A Rein passively stomps if that hasnt already been said.

 

[Ogbunabali]

@Uldmaster Pretty sure they don't.

And Vivec eventually does literally anything and wins.

@PsychoWarper He doesn't.

 

[PsychoWarper]

3-A Rein has passive 1-A Law Manip that expands and warps existence to follow Reinhards Law, which includes making everyone and everything part of his legion. He also becomes 1-A in like 5 seconds.

Back on topic why would being Type 2 let to interact with a Type 5 especially on Vivics level?

 

[Udlmaster]

Not gonna comment on the Reinhard vs Vivec, I'm not that knowledgable on either.

And not sure that Vivec has anything outside of CHIM that could give him the win as Caine has the passive power null that stops literally everything the Mage can do, and I believe all that Vivec has comes under those.

But This is neither here nor there, as Passive hax are always on, so Vivec never gets the chance to do anything.

And they do, again, I can give you the statement from the Timaeus, which proves this and the thread it was talked about it.

 

[Ogbunabali]

He can manipulate his nymic, his own law hax, sealing, etc, etc. And again he can just go CHIM and end it.

If you can point to where concept type 2 affects type 5 acasuals I would appritiated because I was under the impression that it isn't how it works here.

 

[Udlmaster]

Just saying, don't debate Reinhardt vs Vivec here please, it's just derailing the thread.

im not sure what Nymic is, IIRC it's Conceptual manipulation, which is something Caine negs. Law hax, sealing etc. All get negged as well, again, all abilities the Mage has are the list of abilities that are negated by Disbelief.

also, 99% sure this is the thread: https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/2550655?useskin=oasis

 

[PsychoWarper]

My knowledge on TES is limited, what exactly is nymic? (Sorry if you get asked this alot)

Why are you adding a t to Reinhard

 

[Udlmaster]

It autocorrects to Reinhardt, as I type that due to Overwatch Reinhardt.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Hmm it seems a general consensus has been that type 2 concept is enough to affect type 5 acasuals. Although it completely contradictory by it's own definition and it being able to affect a type 5 would mean that it's beyond space-time which would make it type 1 concept not 2. But I digress, Vivec resist concept hax as well.

As for the nymic, I'll just quote myself.

And a nymic is kinda hard to explain. Think of how like platonic concepts exist for each "thing" as their true selves, a nymic is the "true" version of an individual that can be manipulated into quite literally anything, like how he turned Azura a Daedric Prince into a fodder.

 

[Overlord775]

Type 1 concept manipulation is 1-A concept hax

Type 2 is manipulating concepts not bound by reality, which includes causaility, but not to a 1-A level

 

[PsychoWarper]

Imo I think it should be case by case weather or not Type 2 Concept Manip can effect Type 5 Acausality since someone like lets say Pelinal within Madness shouldnt be able to be effected by just any Type 2 Concept Manip (If any).

So while im fine with Type 2 Concept Manip being a potential bypass of Type 5 Acausality not an end all be all.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

What a bunch of galaxy brain posts

 

[ShivaShakti]

What a bunch of galaxy brain posts

XD goddamnit Matto

 

[PsychoWarper]

What a bunch of galaxy brain posts

Which comments might you be refering to?

 

[Dvorak1902]

What a bunch of galaxy brain posts

Come on, don't troll us. You probably know enough to settle the discussion.

 

[Udlmaster]

I've already given the reason why Vivec cannot get his abilities off, stuck in perpetual Regenerationn not able to reform as his Narrative is erased ad infinium, never able to pull of CHIM or anything else

 

[Ogbunabali]

Well, no. Because that's irrelevant as Vivec's, well not true form but the one that "wakes up" exists outside the Aurbis, 1-A range away.

 

[Udlmaster]

Firstly, that would require the True Form taking part outside of his passive resurrection ability, which would be outside help, such as me arguing that ELOHIM Lilith will infinitely resurrect Caine's narrative because she wants to be the one to kill him.

So, unless you have proof of the Resuurrction taking place in somewhere different, the cycle begins anew.

 

[Ogbunabali]

It's not outside help, it's literally him.

 

[Udlmaster]

Also just checked Vivec's profile and he doesn't have 1-A range outside his 1-A profile, he has multiple miles, low complex and High Hyperversal in his Low 1-C Key, so Vivec cannot respawn within any range they Caine cannot reach.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Ok? I don't see how that has anything to do with that. Also can you show proof of low complex and High Hyperversal passive EE?

 

[Udlmaster]

It is, as were talking about two different parts, like saying this cell vs bacteria, but the cell was apart of a Human, therefore gets all Human benefits and the Human interfering in the fight isn't outside help.

You'd be involving another being, in the sense this other being is more "them" than the fragment is.

Since we're not using the True Form Key, we cannot use True Form abilities or arguments, as we've pretty much incapped them from fighting all together.

 

[Ogbunabali]

It's not a true form, I said it's kind of like a true form. Vivec exists in multiple places simultaneously.

 

[Udlmaster]

And the same thing would repeat, and in order for Vivec to attack Caine, Vivec must be within a Low Complex Multiversal Range, which Caine has or has much greater range.

Also, all the stuff for their range is on their profile, and I didn't say Caine has High Hyperversal Range, I said Vivec does in his other keys, but not his Low 2-C one meaning he cannot get into range of Caine without getting erased.

 

[Ogbunabali]

He can go in Oblivion which is High Hyperversal.

 

[Udlmaster]

Okay? He doesn't have the range to attack Caine from there in his Low 2-C Key, so it's pointless and Self-BFR.

Secondly, Vivec is stuck 10 metres from Caine in perpetual erasure, and without proof, the resurrection will keep taking place in the same place, leading to the same result of Vivec being erased.