Legendary Birds Upgrade

[The_real_cal_howard]

I discussed this with @TMR After re-watching the Pokemon 2000 Movie, I noticed something major. Professor Oak, and I think Professor Ivy stated that the birds hold some kind of current together. If the harmony of the titans of fire, lightning, and ice (Yes. I referenced the prophecy of the movie) are disturbed, then the planet gets flooded. Now I know from my time here than flooding the planet is a high 6-A feat. So assuming that they all share 1/3rd of the power required for that to happen, that would put them into the large country or continental range. I don't know which one. Anyway, Lugia scales to the whole high 6-A feat due to being the trio master, and Mewtwo scales to the individual birds for the same reason he scales now.

 

[Peter_"Quicksilver"_Maximoff]

Wrong Place bruh

 

[LordAizenSama]

The first thing that comes to my mind is outlier.

well thats about as much as I want to get involved here, I trust TMR's opinion on this

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Wrong Place bruh

Fixed it.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

Well, Moltres's High 7-A feat mostly comes from a side effect of an ability it has, so I dunno if its an outlier. I support the upgade.

 

[Cropfist]

This does seem like an outlier.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

This does seem like an outlier.

Other than CIS (Charizard induced stupidity), they have no feats other than a pokedex entry. Gen III and beyond are the ones with feats.

 

[Unclechairman]

What is Charizard-Induced Stupidity?

 

[Unclechairman]

The first thing that comes to my mind is outlier.

On what basis?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

What is Charizard-Induced Stupidity?

Articuno getting beat by Charizard.

 

[Cropfist]

This would mean high 6-A Mewtwo when the same Mewtwo that stomped the birds was beaten by Mega Charizard X, which would mean multi-continental Mega Charizard, which is inconsistent with its other feats.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Mega Charizard also tanked hits by the Moon level Primal Pokemon and base Charizard fought on nigh equal footing with Entei. Hencewhy I brought up why Charizard Induced Stupidity was a thing.

 

[Unclechairman]

Base Charizard is casually Town level according to that calc linked in the profile. These instances you mentioned are all by Megazard. Mega Evolution increases a Pokemon's power by an undefined amount. It's absolutely possible to jump from Town to Multi-Continent with Mega Evolution.

You'll need more than that to call something an outlier. An outlier is something inconsistent with other established feats. There's nothing explicitly stating or proving Megazard to be below Multi-Continent, to my knowledge.

 

[Unclechairman]

What is Charizard-Induced Stupidity?

Articuno getting beat by Charizard.

Type advantage and the fact that Charizard is among the stronger Pokemon species couples with Articuno being among the weaker legendaries.

Also, wasn't this Ash's Charizard? Ash's Pokemon seem to be capable of feats other Pokemon of the same species shouldn't normally be able to accomplish, like Pikachu defeating Regice. They may simply be on a higher level.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Almost forgot. This scales to Ho-Oh too, for being equal to Lugia.

 

[Promestein]

Flooding the world is actually a Continent level feat, it was calced here.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

So, what would approx 6.2 Petatons be on our scale?

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Continent level by our current scale, i believe. @Cal

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Thanks, Cross. So, this is an upgrade for all mentioned above to 6-A. Do you support the upgrade, man? And you, @Prom?

 

[Unclechairman]

Eh, it's entirely possible that either,

a). The prophecy is metaphorical about how disturbing the balance of such powerful Pokemon could bring ruin to the world

or

b). Assuming the prophecy is literal, the seal on the flood could just be an unconscious result of the balance between the birds, meaning they're not consciously exerting power to prevent this massive flood from taking place. It's just a natural consequence, as would the flood resulting from the balance being broken.

For these reasons, I'm hesitant to accept this upgrade.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

The prophecy isn't the reason for this upgrade. Oak's and Ivy's analysis is, and gives a specific way the world will end. For b, even if it was unconscious, it would still be their energy, however latent. Their power was stated to hold it together.

I hope this helps, man.

 

[Unclechairman]

If it's their latent energy, then I'm fine with the upgrade as long as they can potentially bring that energy to battle.

 

[HokageKirby161]

Wouldn't Mewtwo be upgraded too?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Yeah. It's in the OP.

 

[DontTalk]

The power holds that current together, but who said one would require that much work to do so?

The flooding of the planet is an indirect result of the change of the current. As far as I remember the movie one can basically interpret it in terms of climate change that the change of such currents can bring. For example I once read that some scientists believe if the gulf stream stops that the ocean could rise up to 1 meter in some places (however that works).

That aside we could talk about a process that possibly takes weeks, month or more to be complete.

 

[RadicalMrR]

I don't think it's an outlier since a passive ability puts them at High 7-A.

And Possilbly 6-A works best in my opinion

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@DT. Problem is, bad things started happening as soon as the collector guy captured Moltres. Like, literally the same day. Storms were brewing, Pokemon started acting differently, and of course, Lugia was awakened.

EDIT: Looked at a few scenes more closely, and the current is stated to encircle the planet, and that the birds keep it in check

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Hmm...It's the birds' own power which maintains this current, correct? Also, my memory is a bit foggy (since I haven't seen the movie since it first came out in theaters, which was when I was really damn young), but were immediate side effects were shown once the balance was disrupted?

If the answer to both of these is 'yes', I don't really have a problem with the upgrade, as the High 7-A rating is from a passive effect of the birds just existing, iirc.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Answer to both is yes, as Oak states that the balance between the three being broken would flood the planet, and once the collector guy took Articuno, storms started worldwide, weather like snow started falling in the sumer, Pokemon sensed impending doom, the other two tried to take over Fire Island, and Lugia started stirring.

If anyone wanted to check for the Oak scene, it starts somewhere near 57:30

 

[DontTalk]

You can not equate those to the energy necessary to keep the current from forming.

The storms are caused by the current changing, not by the birds. Heck the current is not directly causing the storms either.

All that happens through a change in the global weather system and current system, in other words we talk about a complicated chain reaction here. Even if it happens fast there is no saying that all of this is directly fueled from the energy of the current and even less the energy of the birds that basically just had to influence things to a certain degree.

And the flooding of the planet that we want to use as attack potency here never happens (obviously), so timeframe isn't given. Even if it is just one day then we would talk about 1/86400th of the energy. But with no timeframe and a phenomen that clearly takes a longer timeframe even that would be a too nice assumption.

 

[Iustitia_Prime]

I'd like to add something. It might be important to fact-check the analysis of the potential flooding from the original Japanese dub. It's a known fact, for instance, that the prophecy is different in the English and Japanese dubs. The English version for instance outright calls the birds GODS of fire, ice and lightning, whereas the English version changes this to "Titans" and adds fluff about Ash that was never in it originally.

I'm not saying I know the Japanese version is different when discussing world-wide flooding, but it might be useful to get a better or more objective understanding before committing to a change.

Similarly I think we need to remember that Lugia being a "trio master" is fanon. Yes it's kind of a thing sometimes that an uber is connected to a trio. Ho-oh created the Beasts so he's their "trio master". Rayquaza stops Kyogre and Groudon so he's internally their own trio master. Arceus created the Lake Trio and Creation twio so he's both of theirs. But Lugia is only a "trio master" in concept. Am I the only one that remembers that the birds beat him? Lugia put up a great fight but it was the stupid song that saved the day. The three birds together left Lugia's ass at the bottom of the sea. Individually I'd say he's comparable to them or could even take two at once but he should not scale to their combined power. Or you could leave him alone since he has his own feats and stats. But he didn't create them like Ho-oh created the Beasts so...

 

[Lina_Shields]

@Lustitia: Expanding on your statement, considering that Lugia is calculated to be 6-B, and if the Legendary Birds matched him, the legendary birds should scale to Lugia.

Or, considering that the tiering for the legendary birds as well as Lugia were from the actual games, I'm not sure if the movie feat showing the legendary birds should even be considered canon.

 

[ThePerpetual]

If the Legendary Birds really are = Lugia, and Lugia's Country level, then yeah, the birds should be as well.

 

[Lina_Shields]

Considering that all three of the birds were required to match Lugia, as well as simultaneously requiring all three of the legendary birds' attacks in order to take Lugia down, I am okay with leaving the tiering for the legendary birds as it is.

 

[ThePerpetual]

Wouldn't that just divide that level of power between them, then? One-third as powerful as Lugia, or something to that effect?

 

[Lina_Shields]

Yes, the Legendary Birds would be about 1/3 of the power of Lugia. According to this calc here, the yield of Lugia's power is about 11.46 Teratons, or 1.146e13 Tons of TNT.

Divide that by 3, and you get 3.82e12 Tons of TNT, which is Small Country level.