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Legend of Heroes/Trails/Falcom Verse Creation & Discussion Thread

Holy crap I just stumbled upon this and am SO glad I have, While I'm not 100% in agreement on everything, there's definatly a lot of stuff I am. I do feel like quite a bit of stuff is missing for Estelle though. Much as Jason's Respect blog for her cover's I feel like it misses things only seen in gameplay. Such as Even the first enemies you can encounter https://www.crimsontear.com/gaming/loh-trails-in-the-sky-1/monster-guide/mars-sparrow the mars sparrow can summon meteor's. This is a variant from the end of the game, but the move is the same. and this is something Estelle can tank. This might not necessarily upgrade everyone (I calced it at city block level but I have no clue what I'm doing), but it should give a general upgrade for Estelle. Especially when monster's canonically get much stronger in the sequel. also there's Tita's s-craft from sky sc which provides a somewhat decent cloud split. Course uh these are all bit feats to wacky tier 4-Universal schenanigans. But you know.


Edit: Oh people can also avoid this flash grenade from fie. Considering it does damage and can Seal enemies movments/crafts on top of just blinding people I think it's safe to assume they aren't just blocking it.
 
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Jesterofgames said:
Holy crap I just stumbled upon this and am SO glad I have, While I'm not 100% in agreement on everything, there's definatly a lot of stuff I am. I do feel like quite a bit of stuff is missing for Estelle though. Much as Jason's Respect blog for her cover's I feel like it misses things only seen in gameplay. Such as Even the first enemies you can encounter https://www.crimsontear.com/gaming/loh-trails-in-the-sky-1/monster-guide/mars-sparrow the mars sparrow can summon meteor's. This is a variant from the end of the game, but the move is the same. and this is something Estelle can tank. This might not necessarily upgrade everyone (I calced it at city block level but I have no clue what I'm doing), but it should give a general upgrade for Estelle. Especially when monster's canonically get much stronger in the sequel. also there's Tita's s-craft from sky sc which provides a somewhat decent cloud split. Course uh these are all bit feats to wacky tier 4-Universal schenanigans. But you know.


Edit: Oh people can also avoid this flash grenade from fie. Considering it does damage and can Seal enemies movments/crafts on top of just blinding people I think it's safe to assume they aren't just blocking it.
Click to expand...

Oh right just gonna ask opinions on my edit, Think that could be a valid speed calc? (Well I assume it'd be a valid speed calc even if they just block it but still)
 
Also I just realized, shouldn't Rean's Cold Steel 2 speed be based off something else? Unless I'm misremembering, S-crafts cannot miss. and the current sub-reletivistic rating comes from the idea that enemies can dodge Emma's S-craft.

Like there is a LOT of light based stuff we could examine instead. Even if we dismiss early on laser "misses" as aim dodging.
 
Jesterofgames said:
Also I just realized, shouldn't Rean's Cold Steel 2 speed be based off something else? Unless I'm misremembering, S-crafts cannot miss. and the current sub-reletivistic rating comes from the idea that enemies can dodge Emma's S-craft.

Like there is a LOT of light based stuff we could examine instead. Even if we dismiss early on laser "misses" as aim dodging.
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Yes. S-Crafts always hit an enemy, regardless of evasion. We could get better things for FTL range speed feats out of characters dodging Lunar Ray (literally called a lunar beam), which is just an ordinary art in Cold Steel I. There is a light craft they can dodge too IIRC.
 
It just occured to me, we could possibly just down scale end of game Cold steel 1 and 2 Class 7 from Cold steel 4 Laura and Rean


in Laura's bonding event in 4 they battle a Loa erebonius. One Laura directly compares to the one Class 7 fought at the end of Cold steel 1.

"A single Loa erebonius was Almost more then the entirety of class 7 could handle once. But now... Just the two of us can defeat one."

And this was one that Rean and Laura did have to try to beat so it wasn't just a casual thing. Since Rean unleased Demon unchained and both released their S-crafts.
 
Jesterofgames said:
It just occured to me, we could possibly just down scale end of game Cold steel 1 and 2 Class 7 from Cold steel 4 Laura and Rean


in Laura's bonding event in 4 they battle a Loa erebonius. One Laura directly compares to the one Class 7 fought at the end of Cold steel 1.

"A single Loa erebonius was Almost more then the entirety of class 7 could handle once. But now... Just the two of us can defeat one."

And this was one that Rean and Laura did have to try to beat so it wasn't just a casual thing. Since Rean unleased Demon unchained and both released their S-crafts.
Click to expand...

Eh downscaling is a chore. It's not like them beating Loa Erebonius is the height of their scaling.

Class 7 could barely beat 1 soldat piloted by Scarlet back in CS1. Rean in CS4 one shot two enchanted soldats along with the rest of the elite squad powered up by the curse. Rean would one-shot Loa from CS1.
 
ZERO7772 said:
Eh downscaling is a chore. It's not like them beating Loa Erebonius is the height of their scaling.

Class 7 could barely beat 1 soldat piloted by Scarlet back in CS1. Rean in CS4 one shot two enchanted soldats along with the rest of the elite squad powered up by the curse. Rean would one-shot Loa from CS1.
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few small corrections.
Class 7 Beat the soldat piloted by some nobody, and then immedeatly got thrown into a fight with Scarlet Piloting a Spiegel. A much faster and superior unit to the Soldat. and they specifically only lost because they had now way around the reactive armor of the Spiegel without Valimar.

Even then if you do wanna dismiss Laura and Rean struggling against Loa Erebonius as a low end.

We do have class 7 directly fighting the corrupted divine knight Vermillion Apocolypse and holding out against for a good chunk of time against it until Valimar and Ordine recovered their mana.

also where did rean one shot the enhanced soldats again? I don't remember that.
 
We have seen a bunch of Loa being taken out by Soldats in CS3 they are not really stronger than a soldat with a competent pilot.

Rean one shots enhanced soldat along with the in one of Altina's bond events.
 
ZERO7772 said:
We have seen a bunch of Loa being taken out by Soldats in CS3 they are not really stronger than a soldat with a competent pilot.
Click to expand...

You know what fair, however Vermillion apocolypse should be different. Even as a freshly woken up Knight it did pose a threat to Begining of 4 Class 7. So the downscaling method should work from that way.

ZERO7772 said:
Rean one shots enhanced soldat along with the in one of Altina's bond events.
Click to expand...
Admitedly forgot about that one.

Though there are other methods of down scaling Class 7. But thinking about it. Class 7 should reasonably scale to the Liberal cast as early as the end of CS2.
Lloyd and Rixia's match with Rean and Altina is offically described as a draw,

Also IIRC B-rank toval is portrayed as pretty on par with them in the prequal to zero manga (ring of judgement)? though i could be misremembering. In which case they scale due to being Somewhat reletive though weaker then Sara. Plus battling Mcburn with enough force he get's excited enough to transform. Something he didn't do Vs Sharon and Rean in Cold steel 3.

Downscaling might be a hastle but there's a lot of evidence IMO that the gap between Cold steel 2 and 3 isn't a massive several tier leap. (also like I pointed out the avanues to scale to sky 3rd.)
 
Dunno why you are so focused on downscale to begin with.

Base CS2 Rean was able to stalemate post-Azure Lloyd meaning he stomps him with Ogre power. Anyone relevant to Rean such as Crow, Laura, and Sara all scale to him.

Class 7 slaps SSS post time-skip. There is direct scaling within the universe you don't even need to hunt for feats.

Rean beats Crow, who was compared to Sara who is one of the best A rank bracers on the continent at the time and Estelle isn't even ranked bracer at the time of zero. I like Estelle but power level wise she's pretty mid. 90% of the verse scale to her especially 16yo Estelle.
 
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Oh the downscaling was for speed since sub rela based off emma’s s-craft is bunk since it can’t be dodged. Should have clarified
 
Ok I'm sorry if I sound nitpicky at this point, but where is the source of Mcburn's s-craft hitting like a supernova.
is this a line from the japanese version or what? I've seen it but NEVER seen a source for it.

(Plus as me and Zero talked about It's literally just way easier to scale Rean and new class 7 to Estelle and Lloyd
 
I'm not sure if this would come up, but I have encountered people asking if S-Crafts are even canon or not. If we ever get a verse page up and need to explain this element, there is an interview where Kondo says they are indeed canon.

Kondo Interview (Link):

"S-Crafts are a huge part of the Trails of Cold Steel series, and fans love these parts, as it’s very cinematic, how do you come up with these and how do you continue to come up with new and exciting ideas for future ones?

TK: Now that we have so many characters new and old that can use S-Crafts, the whole design team comes up with ideas, which they then storyboard and we choose the one we think best suits the character it's for. The funny thing is that back in “Trails in the Sky” we tried to make the S-Crafts more grounded in reality. But, it’s kind of turned into satellites shooting projectiles from space.

TK: I remember at first thinking: “Is this really okay to have in the games now?” but fans seem to really enjoy them a lot. So now it’s become a contest among the designers on who can create the flashiest and craziest S-Craft. Our philosophy is that when we create S-Crafts they don’t go beyond the bounds of the reality of the game world and be rooted within the elements of things that are plausible within the Trails world."

It's very clear that Kondo had intended S-Crafts to be canon from the start, which is why they were tamer at the beginning of the series. However, as time went on, the flashier S-Crafts became okay as long as they weren't outright implausible. We may still get questions like how the planet is still fine after Osborne's Ishmelga, but the important thing is we have a direct Word of God statement on this matter.
 
PlozAlcachaz said:
I'm not sure if this would come up, but I have encountered people asking if S-Crafts are even canon or not. If we ever get a verse page up and need to explain this element, there is an interview where Kondo says they are indeed canon.

Kondo Interview (Link):

"S-Crafts are a huge part of the Trails of Cold Steel series, and fans love these parts, as it’s very cinematic, how do you come up with these and how do you continue to come up with new and exciting ideas for future ones?

TK: Now that we have so many characters new and old that can use S-Crafts, the whole design team comes up with ideas, which they then storyboard and we choose the one we think best suits the character it's for. The funny thing is that back in “Trails in the Sky” we tried to make the S-Crafts more grounded in reality. But, it’s kind of turned into satellites shooting projectiles from space.

TK: I remember at first thinking: “Is this really okay to have in the games now?” but fans seem to really enjoy them a lot. So now it’s become a contest among the designers on who can create the flashiest and craziest S-Craft. Our philosophy is that when we create S-Crafts they don’t go beyond the bounds of the reality of the game world and be rooted within the elements of things that are plausible within the Trails world."

It's very clear that Kondo had intended S-Crafts to be canon from the start, which is why they were tamer at the beginning of the series. However, as time went on, the flashier S-Crafts became okay as long as they weren't outright implausible. We may still get questions like how the planet is still fine after Osborne's Ishmelga, but the important thing is we have a direct Word of God statement on this matter.
Click to expand...
I mean, I doubt anyone would actually ask since we have things like this. But still a nice find.
 
I remembered this thread after Sky remake was announced + there's also farewell o zemuria coming out in less then a week.

a lot to feats earch and I wish more people where interested in this verse. Would make thisgs so much easier.
 
Jesterofgames said:
I remembered this thread after Sky remake was announced + there's also farewell o zemuria coming out in less then a week.

a lot to feats earch and I wish more people where interested in this verse. Would make thisgs so much easier.
Click to expand...
I tried to make Crow blog but I gave up when I couldn't find online videos of every craft he had from CS1 to modern. But we do have calculated feats already, so we can technically/theoretically start indexing. Right now I'm playing Through daybreak, and I'm having fun. I can help with the first game since I got in hands right now.
 
Tomfer said:
I tried to make Crow blog but I gave up when I couldn't find online videos of every craft he had from CS1 to modern. But we do have calculated feats already, so we can technically/theoretically start indexing. Right now I'm playing Through daybreak, and I'm having fun. I can help with the first game since I got in hands right now.
Click to expand...
yeah but I'm more thinking more complicated profiles.
Weissman comes to mind, specifically cause he has the Aureole. Which is probably gonna be a headache in terms of putting it's hax and abilities. Since it does a lot of stuff.
Though I feel it might help to have a unified "combat orbmant" page.
Combat orbmants through out the series, have given access to the same abilites, spells, and hax, and is basically this verses energy system.
 
Jesterofgames said:
Though I feel it might help to have a unified "combat orbmant" page.
Combat orbmants through out the series, have given access to the same abilites, spells, and hax, and is basically this verses energy system.
Click to expand...
I agree with that idea and I believe that we should make this page first just to make things less complicated when making future pages but that's just me.
 
Oh right I keep forgetting to ask. But where is Mcburns s-craft ever compared to a supernova. I see it used for scaling all the time but never actually see the description.
 
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Also I hope this thread gains more traction, since it'll be easier to do stuff if more people get involved. (Such as calcs or scaling discussions)
 
Jesterofgames said:
Oh right I keep forgetting to ask. But where is Mcburns s-craft ever compared to a supernova. I see it used for scaling all the time but never actually see the description.
Click to expand...
I can't seem to find it. The OP gives a quote for it, but I cannot find it from googling or searching the Kiseki wiki.
 
PlozAlcachaz said:
I can't seem to find it. The OP gives a quote for it, but I cannot find it from googling or searching the Kiseki wiki.
Click to expand...
Same! i've been looking everywhere for it and it's driving me insane. I keep seeing it brought up.
like I know a enemy in Cold steel 4 is stated to have seemingly infinite power, and several "All of creation" And "space and time" statements Which are probably more helpful for arguing higher. But it'd be nice to see you know
 
though speaking of descriptions. an enemy description says this from reverie.

"A Zero Guardian that guards key locations. It pierces targets with arrows that shatter the very bounds of time and space."
Possible immesurable speed feat?
 
OH another thing I'm curious about. How should we take the "Arts can not miss" statements?

On one hand people have dodged them in cutscene. On the other hand They are stated to not miss in gameplay, and act like that. + they only started missing in cutscene AFTER the magic dodge orbments have become a thing. (Of course I'm could be missing something from earlier games.)
 
Jesterofgames said:
OH another thing I'm curious about. How should we take the "Arts can not miss" statements?

On one hand people have dodged them in cutscene. On the other hand They are stated to not miss in gameplay, and act like that. + they only started missing in cutscene AFTER the magic dodge orbments have become a thing. (Of course I'm could be missing something from earlier games.)
Click to expand...
We look at authors intent to dispel the discrepancy, and it's that arts can miss (especially when you consider they have range as well to substantiate this). It's just not something that happens in gameplay. A hazard in rpg scaling is assuming gameplay or story takes precedence over the other, but its more about checking what adds up between them. Otherwise you get very strange scaling issues.
 
Accelerate420 said:
We look at authors intent to dispel the discrepancy, and it's that arts can miss (especially when you consider they have range as well to substantiate this). It's just not something that happens in gameplay. A hazard in rpg scaling is assuming gameplay or story takes precedence over the other, but its more about checking what adds up between them. Otherwise you get very strange scaling issues.
Click to expand...
It's not just a gameplay thing, though it's acknowledged in the story. In the crossbell games Tio straight up says "Arts can not miss" or well more Specifically, she says in regards to her orbal staff which is compared to arts in function. "Unlike normal arts, there is a chance my attacks will miss the enemy."

Hence the question.
 
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Jesterofgames said:
It's not just a gameplay thing, though it's acknowledged in the story. In the crossbell games Tio straight up says "Arts can not miss" or well more Specifically, she says in regards to her orbal staff which is compared to arts in function. "Unlike normal arts, there is a chance my attacks will miss the enemy."

Hence the question.
Click to expand...
Then it's just a retcon, isn't it? It's as simple as that. Unless it's substantiated again later in the series post-those retcons, then the retcons become outliers. So you'd have to show proof that it's reinitiated and not just a retconned story point.
 
Accelerate420 said:
Then it's just a retcon, isn't it? It's as simple as that. Unless it's substantiated again later in the series post-those retcons, then the retcons become outliers. So you'd have to show proof that it's reinitiated and not just a retconned story point.
Click to expand...
Eh Fair? but at the same time even in cold steel 3 it's straight up said that if an enemy is hard to hit, you should use arts on them. Not a direct "arts can't miss" statement, but definatly means arts are better to use against hard to hit enemies.
 
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