Legend of Heroes/Trails/Falcom Verse Creation & Discussion Thread

[ZERO7772]

If anyone fights Ishmelga paying their significant share of power, they deserve Ishmelga tier by our site standards.

Things can be made simpler if McBurn's Incandescent Hellfire can make a supernova which is theoretically above the energy required to slice an Earth in two halves. - scales if anyone fought McBurn with one's own effort of course.

The only ones fighting Ishmelga are the Divine Knights and the boosted Soldats. ishmelga loge is a fraction of the great one so it's not scaleable to it.

The issue with the spet-terrions is that you only fight the physical manifestation of them. The actual Sept-terrions exist at a higher plane of existence. Although a case could be made for the Demurgios in Haji.

Anyway, this is a discussion for another time. I really wish we could get the Rean profile done first

 

[ZERO7772]

is there anything new?

 

[Accelerate420]

Stomped Post-Azure Lloyd Bannings with ease. Was the Erebonian Empire's most valuable tool during their annexation of North Ambria.

What's the justification for this? Because as far as I remember they were evenly matched when Rean's not in ogre form when they stalemated briefly in the Geofront. He'd likely be stronger in it though.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Busy for the next month, so for now I'll settle for plans on what should be added and what should be calc'd.
Last episode of the anime has Valimar releasing a beam that disperses the storm clouds in a wide area around him. The storm clouds were magically summoned all around the region of North Ambria's capital. Both feats are very solid supporting evidence.

Trials to Azure is released on Steam with official localization.
Also, there will be a Northern War gacha game releasing soon; not even Legend of Heroes in general but just Northern War. Will its story be a recap, or will they attempt to make it some sort of sequel to the anime? North Ambria got stomped in like a day.

 

[ZERO7772]

.

 

[ZERO7772]

bump.

Can we do the Rean profile for the time being?

 

[Scottycj256]

sure

i just gotta get through 4 games and accidentally spoil myself on sky and crossbell

 

[Tomfer]

Ah, Legend of Heroes... I haven't played Cold Steel 4 nor watched the anime. Is there a big jump in power between Cold Steel 4 and the rest of the series? Especially for Rean?

 

[Tomfer]

Can we do the Rean profile for the time being?

During my gameplay through 2 and 3, I was thinking about making a sandbox but ShadowWhoWalk's sandbox of Rean looks pretty clean content wise imo.

 

[Scottycj256]

Ah, Legend of Heroes... I haven't played Cold Steel 4 nor watched the anime. Is there a big jump in power between Cold Steel 4 and the rest of the series? Especially for Rean?

In Trails to Azure the Special Support Section fights Azure Demurgios, but it was with the help of KeA. In Cold Steel 4 they fight Ishmelga-Loge which had the power of a Sept-Terrion, which is of comparable power to Azure Demurgios.[/SPOILER]

 

[Scottycj256]

 

[ZERO7772]

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

I just gone done with the Sky trilogy, and I am starting to play Zero. I can't add much for now, but I am curious what the consensus is on some Trails 3rd stuff since it's not been brought up.

Specifically, I want to talk about Phantasma. I think it's pretty safe to say that the Lord of Phantasma/the copy of Kevin's Stigma scales to the structure. Its battle description says it manipulates the laws of the world, Celeste says that it can reshape the world according to its desires (which is how the planes came to be), its presence maintained the world, and Phantasma was starting to collapse not long after its destruction. There should not be a problem in scaling the cast to this. Determining Phantasma's size seems to be the big thing. Phantasma seems to be universe-sized from what I've seen. It's called a reflection of the material world, and we know its size is the real deal. Celeste said the wasteland area they had to search was the size of Zemuria. The most obvious thing to this point is that Anima (the copy) has an attack where it flies off the planet and we see a view of the planet, the sun, and MANY stars in the scene. I'm curious to hear what you guys make of this.

 

[Scottycj256]

I just gone done with the Sky trilogy, and I am starting to play Zero. I can't add much for now, but I am curious what the consensus is on some Trails 3rd stuff since it's not been brought up.

Specifically, I want to talk about Phantasma. I think it's pretty safe to say that the Lord of Phantasma/the copy of Kevin's Stigma scales to the structure. Its battle description says it manipulates the laws of the world, Celeste says that it can reshape the world according to its desires (which is how the planes came to be), its presence maintained the world, and Phantasma was starting to collapse not long after its destruction. There should not be a problem in scaling the cast to this. Determining Phantasma's size seems to be the big thing. Phantasma seems to be universe-sized from what I've seen. It's called a reflection of the material world, and we know its size is the real deal. Celeste said the wasteland area they had to search was the size of Zemuria. The most obvious thing to this point is that Anima (the copy) has an attack where it flies off the planet and we see a view of the planet, the sun, and MANY stars in the scene. I'm curious to hear what you guys make of this.

I had already put it as 4-A on Rean's profile

 

[Tomfer]

I had already put it as 4-A on Rean's profile

I'm 50% sure we can bullshit our way through higher tiers, lmao.

 

[Scottycj256]

we need more consensus from people that know the tiering system better before we get past 4-A

 

[Tomfer]

we need more consensus from people that know the tiering system better before we get past 4-A

The only two people I know that are knowledgeable in that area are Ultima and DT, both who are extremely busy at the moment... and possibly busy for a few more months.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

I had already put it as 4-A on Rean's profile

Oh, I had not seen your sandbox. Is there any particular reason we're not using the OP's compiled feats? I don't have an issue one way or the other, but I am genuinely curious.

we need more consensus from people that know the tiering system better before we get past 4-A

I have looked through the game again, and I believe we can safely conclude that Phantasma is a universe. That would make the feats regarding it 3-A/Low 2-C. It would be nice to hear what staff say about this, but we should go forward for this in mind.

There are some things to note that make this case:

1. Celeste explains Phantasma's structure here. She calls it similar to a fictitious realm in the sense that peoples' desires are realized in Phantasma. Of course, it's not actually fictitious, given this was her simplifying its nature. This seems to compare the scope of Phantasma as a world to the main universe. Furthermore, Anima Mundi treats the two as counterparts too.
2. The contents of the planes are treated as physical spaces. When Kevin and Ries first arrive in the Hermit's Garden, they observe its huge size by looking at the starry sky before them, saying it goes out as far as the eye can see. Multiple characters even comment on these being stars too. Josette talks about formed constellations in Hermit Space, and Renne directly mentions the stars but how she wishes she could see the moon. The planes are also different spaces from one another, so it's not like they would share the same night sky anyway. You need portals to travel between them because they are isolated from one another.
3. We've already talked Hermit's Garden being 4-A in size, but the other planes have similar things going for them. The Jade Corridor (First Plane) has its own starry sky background, Le Locle (Fourth Plane) has its own starry sky, the Wastelands have their own starry sky as we Anima Mundi literally fly out of the atmosphere and enter space itself with the sun also in the background, and Grancel switches from day to night, showcasing it follows a lunar cycle. This demonstrates a minimum 4-A size for the subplanes within Phantasma. What's more interesting is that Celeste directly mentions that Phantasma could host countless amounts of these planes, presumably of a similar size, as well.
4. The realm itself appears to be spatially and temporally distinct from the main universe. Kevin and Ries mention multiple times that Phantasma is spatially enclosed, and one of Phantasma's gimmicks is that it has completely separate universal rules and laws governing it. This part is admittedly weaker evidence, but Julia also notes that the sense of time in Phantasma appears asynchronous to the real world, given she can't precisely discern how much time has passed.

The standards we have to meet can be found on this page. I believe Phantasma meets enough criteria to satisfy the universal guidelines, personally. It has evidence showing it is a temporally and spatially distinct location, contains many (up to potentially countless) subplanes that are 4-A in size, and it's treated as a counterpart to the "real world" like the mirror world bit mentioned in the guidelines.

Some of the statements that come from random character dialogue might be doubted, but I believe it's safe to use. Many characters openly mention talking to Celeste after she is reformed. The consistency of these comments still follow after she is reformed, and she had already gone about correcting any misinterpretations of Phantasma that the cast had. If ideas like a different flow of time or the stars being actual stars were erroneous, it stands to reason Celeste would have corrected these alleged falsehoods. However, she does not refute these observations at any point.

Also, something to consider is how consistent this would be. The SC cast was able to fight Weissmann fused with the Aureole, which itself created and sustained Phantasma prior to its disappearance. It makes 4-A to Low 2-C very consistent fairly consistent for the Sky Trilogy, at least by the end game of SC.

 

[Scottycj256]

Oh, I had not seen your sandbox. Is there any particular reason we're not using the OP's compiled feats? I don't have an issue one way or the other, but I am genuinely curious

I had already calced Lost Genesis, and it was High 4-C, im working on the other tier 4 feats linked on the OP, plus these feats are gonna bunk the need for Jasonsith's compiled feats besides the speed they output

I have looked through the game again, and I believe we can safely conclude that Phantasma is a universe. That would make the feats regarding it 3-A/Low 2-C. It would be nice to hear what staff say about this, but we should go forward for this in mind.

There are some things to note that make this case:

1. Celeste explains Phantasma's structure here. She calls it similar to a fictitious realm in the sense that peoples' desires are realized in Phantasma. Of course, it's not actually fictitious, given this was her simplifying its nature. This seems to compare the scope of Phantasma as a world to the main universe. Furthermore, Anima Mundi treats the two as counterparts too.
2. The contents of the planes are treated as physical spaces. When Kevin and Ries first arrive in the Hermit's Garden, they observe its huge size by looking at the starry sky before them, saying it goes out as far as the eye can see. Multiple characters even comment on these being stars too. Josette talks about formed constellations in Hermit Space, and Renne directly mentions the stars but how she wishes she could see the moon. The planes are also different spaces from one another, so it's not like they would share the same night sky anyway. You need portals to travel between them because they are isolated from one another.
3. We've already talked Hermit's Garden being 4-A in size, but the other planes have similar things going for them. The Jade Corridor (First Plane) has its own starry sky background, Le Locle (Fourth Plane) has its own starry sky, the Wastelands have their own starry sky as we Anima Mundi literally fly out of the atmosphere and enter space itself with the sun also in the background, and Grancel switches from day to night, showcasing it follows a lunar cycle. This demonstrates a minimum 4-A size for the subplanes within Phantasma. What's more interesting is that Celeste directly mentions that Phantasma could host countless amounts of these planes, presumably of a similar size, as well.
4. The realm itself appears to be spatially and temporally distinct from the main universe. Kevin and Ries mention multiple times that Phantasma is spatially enclosed, and one of Phantasma's gimmicks is that it has completely separate universal rules and laws governing it. This part is admittedly weaker evidence, but Julia also notes that the sense of time in Phantasma appears asynchronous to the real world, given she can't precisely discern how much time has passed.

The standards we have to meet can be found on this page. I believe Phantasma meets enough criteria to satisfy the universal guidelines, personally. It has evidence showing it is a temporally and spatially distinct location, contains many (up to potentially countless) subplanes that are 4-A in size, and it's treated as a counterpart to the "real world" like the mirror world bit mentioned in the guidelines.

Some of the statements that come from random character dialogue might be doubted, but I believe it's safe to use. Many characters openly mention talking to Celeste after she is reformed. The consistency of these comments still follow after she is reformed, and she had already gone about correcting any misinterpretations of Phantasma that the cast had. If ideas like a different flow of time or the stars being actual stars were erroneous, it stands to reason Celeste would have corrected these alleged falsehoods. However, she does not refute these observations at any point.

Also, something to consider is how consistent this would be. The SC cast was able to fight Weissmann fused with the Aureole, which itself created and sustained Phantasma prior to its disappearance. It makes 4-A to Low 2-C very consistent fairly consistent for the Sky Trilogy, at least by the end game of SC.

I'm glad to be proven wrong ig, I'll change the sandbox then

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

I gathered all enemy profiles w/ descriptions from the localized games, in preparation of finishing up the resistance list, and to scan for statements/hax.

Download

A file is available for download and streaming via UploadNow by following this link

uploadnow.io

Here are some interesting ones:

Essence Envoy An enigmatic being of infinite energy that Demiourgos can assimilate into itself. Giant Ispod A marine monster of ancient times awakened by tectonic shifts. Its icy breath can drop to beyond absolute zero, freezing space itself. Agaragion A cryptid from another dimension. Imbued with the energy of the sun, it burns its foes so that not even ashes remain. Torso Mk. III BIG An autonomous cleaning robot that has been greatly enlarged and enhanced. Its suckage can now consume even beyond black holes. Azure Demiourgos A hollow god that came into being by absorbing KeA. Rewrites reality by manipulating causality. Genesial Demiourgos A Sept-Terrion awakened by the convergence of the furthest strands of fate. Still in its shell, it feeds on knowledge from the sea of creation. Genesial Demiourgos A Sept-Terrion awakened by the convergence of the furthest strands of fate. Now out of its shell, it raises itss voice and displays omniscience. Genesial Demiourgos A Sept-Terrion awakened by the convergence of the furthest strands of fate. It now exerts its true power, rewriting the logic of this world.

After I am done with the resistances, I will try to calculate some feats (would appreciate any help). The black holes ones are a priority.

Also, for the lower tiers, are we going with Tier 8 or Tier 7? If it is 7 we should calculate at least a couple storm feats.

 

[Scottycj256]

Tier 8 is safe because of Early Sky having tier 8 arts

 

[ZERO7772]

I'm 50% sure we can bullshit our way through higher tiers, lmao.

We can. Some verse on this wiki has high rating for such ridiculous reasons.

 

[ZERO7772]

I gathered all enemy profiles w/ descriptions from the localized games, in preparation of finishing up the resistance list, and to scan for statements/hax.

Download

A file is available for download and streaming via UploadNow by following this link

uploadnow.io

Here are some interesting ones:

Essence Envoy An enigmatic being of infinite energy that Demiourgos can assimilate into itself. Giant Ispod A marine monster of ancient times awakened by tectonic shifts. Its icy breath can drop to beyond absolute zero, freezing space itself. Agaragion A cryptid from another dimension. Imbued with the energy of the sun, it burns its foes so that not even ashes remain. Torso Mk. III BIG An autonomous cleaning robot that has been greatly enlarged and enhanced. Its suckage can now consume even beyond black holes. Azure Demiourgos A hollow god that came into being by absorbing KeA. Rewrites reality by manipulating causality. Genesial Demiourgos A Sept-Terrion awakened by the convergence of the furthest strands of fate. Still in its shell, it feeds on knowledge from the sea of creation. Genesial Demiourgos A Sept-Terrion awakened by the convergence of the furthest strands of fate. Now out of its shell, it raises itss voice and displays omniscience. Genesial Demiourgos A Sept-Terrion awakened by the convergence of the furthest strands of fate. It now exerts its true power, rewriting the logic of this world.

After I am done with the resistances, I will try to calculate some feats (would appreciate any help). The black holes ones are a priority.

Also, for the lower tiers, are we going with Tier 8 or Tier 7? If it is 7 we should calculate at least a couple storm feats.

Fantastic work. Worth going over and digging some worthy statement

 

[ZERO7772]

I just gone done with the Sky trilogy, and I am starting to play Zero. I can't add much for now, but I am curious what the consensus is on some Trails 3rd stuff since it's not been brought up.

Specifically, I want to talk about Phantasma. I think it's pretty safe to say that the Lord of Phantasma/the copy of Kevin's Stigma scales to the structure. Its battle description says it manipulates the laws of the world, Celeste says that it can reshape the world according to its desires (which is how the planes came to be), its presence maintained the world, and Phantasma was starting to collapse not long after its destruction. There should not be a problem in scaling the cast to this. Determining Phantasma's size seems to be the big thing. Phantasma seems to be universe-sized from what I've seen. It's called a reflection of the material world, and we know its size is the real deal. Celeste said the wasteland area they had to search was the size of Zemuria. The most obvious thing to this point is that Anima (the copy) has an attack where it flies off the planet and we see a view of the planet, the sun, and MANY stars in the scene. I'm curious to hear what you guys make of this.

We don't know how big the trails universe is first of all + the farthest thing we see in world of Phantasma is stars in the sky, you can get a 4-A based on that alone but anything beyond that is hard to proof.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

We don't know how big the trails universe is first of all

What is your point? Part of the argument is comparing Phantasma's size to the real world, but it is not a requirement to prove the real world's size for this point to work. Characters casually call it the universe throughout the series. Unless we have an explicit reason to not consider it universe-sized, this is a non-issue. I cannot imagine you will find a verse on this site where it has been asked to prove that a universe is a universe.

the farthest thing we see in world of Phantasma is stars in the sky, you can get a 4-A based on that alone but anything beyond that is hard to proof.

Correction, many of the planes we see have starry skies. We are led to believe by Celeste that Phantasma itself can contain countless of these 4-A-sized planes without a problem. Phantasma itself is clearly a muuuuuuch bigger structure. I would suggest that you read the comprehensive comment I posted that laid out the case for a universe-sized Phantasma if you haven't already. I'm not going to say it's 100% bulletproof, but there's enough evidence to warrant a potentially/likely rating.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I think Ploz is making the most sense here.

 

[Scottycj256]

An update on the High 4-C calc: I decided to calculate the speed required to dodge the attack and got Massively FTL+

 

[ZERO7772]

What is your point? Part of the argument is comparing Phantasma's size to the real world, but it is not a requirement to prove the real world's size for this point to work. Characters casually call it the universe throughout the series. Unless we have an explicit reason to not consider it universe-sized, this is a non-issue. I cannot imagine you will find a verse on this site where it has been asked to prove that a universe is a universe.

Correction, many of the planes we see have starry skies. We are led to believe by Celeste that Phantasma itself can contain countless of these 4-A-sized planes without a problem. Phantasma itself is clearly a muuuuuuch bigger structure. I would suggest that you read the comprehensive comment I posted that laid out the case for a universe-sized Phantasma if you haven't already. I'm not going to say it's 100% bulletproof, but there's enough evidence to warrant a potentially/likely rating.

Yeah fair. didn't read the later respond in my initial replay.

I played sky a whole ago and didn't bother through many statement from the older games.

 

[Scottycj256]

An update on the High 4-C calc: I decided to calculate the speed required to dodge the attack and got Massively FTL+

another update: Massively FTL+ got accepted by DMUA

 

[Tomfer]

another update: Massively FTL+ got accepted by DMUA

Another Rean W, just like always.

 

[Scottycj256]

Another Rean W, just like always.

hell yeah

 

[Tomfer]

How would be the best idea to scale the other class 7 members?

At most 4-A (Comparable to Ren, but still weaker)
4-A (Comparable, but weaker, to Ren)
4-A (Comparable to Ren)

The idea of others being comparable to Rean come due to the fact that, even if they're not on the same level, they can still participate and contribute to the same fights that Rean is in. And there are others that are outright on the same level, like Crow.

 

[Scottycj256]

4-A Comparable to Rean

 

[ZERO7772]

How would be the best idea to scale the other class 7 members?

At most 4-A (Comparable to Ren, but still weaker)
4-A (Comparable, but weaker, to Ren)
4-A (Comparable to Ren)

The idea of others being comparable to Rean come due to the fact that, even if they're not on the same level, they can still participate and contribute to the same fights that Rean is in. And there are others that are outright on the same level, like Crow.

I guess? Then again characters like Alisa, Elliot, Machias are not comparable to Rean in any form. NC7 were far inferior to Rean in CS3 and Elliot mentioned that they were still stronger than he is.

No need to bother with these characters for now I think. Crow, Sara, Laura, Gaius, Emma should scale tho

 

[Tomfer]

Crow, Sara, Laura, Gaius, Emma should scale tho

Yeah, these were the characters I was thinking. Crow and Sara especially.

NC7

I won't voice any opinion on NC7's scaling until I start playing Trails Into Reverie, especially Kurt.

 

[ZERO7772]

Yeah, these were the characters I was thinking. Crow and Sara especially.

Well, Crow was compared to Sara in CS1 after he soloed Rean, Laura, and Fie by himself. Rean in CS2 beats Crow in a 1v1 fight so all these 3 characters all scale to each other.

The scaling of class 7 before time skip is straightforward with it being:
Rean > Crow/Sara > Laura > Fie > everybody else

Starting from CS3 it's a bit more complicated

 

[Tomfer]

I am currently playing through Trails of Cold Steel 1, and have a sandbox of Rean in progress

Scottycj256/SandboxReanSchwarzer

vsbattles.fandom.com

I'm currently playing through the series to get evidence of hax to use for a Universal Energy System page for Orbal Arts

the thing i have down though is the scaling chain, though i can likely make CS1 characters 7-B with that supporting feat posted

Btw, it's a small thing but Rean should have Enhanced Senses and Valimar should have Inorganic Physiology type 2.

Rean (and Ash) can sense people watching them from afar (there's multiple other examples but I don't remember) and Valimar just isn't organic.

 

[Tomfer]

Finished Cold Steel 4 and just started Into Revarie.

I'm having mixed feelings, but the new characters are great so far. (C's possibly a new favorite of mine)

 

[Accelerate420]

How's the Rean profile going? I'm at CS3 myself so I'll likely dump any arts or hax not mentioned yet. It's important to note that weapon descriptions can sometimes have hax in them too like how one of Rean's blades can let him cut light itself or how another weapon can always hit its target. If those haven't been considered I'll go down the list and offer the hax options from equipment.

 

[Accelerate420]

Btw, it's a small thing but Rean should have Enhanced Senses and Valimar should have Inorganic Physiology type 2.

Rean (and Ash) can sense people watching them from afar (there's multiple other examples but I don't remember) and Valimar just isn't organic.

Most of the high experienced characters do but it's notable for Rean to have more receptive senses in CS3 and up, as being the constant one who notices things coming before most others. In that regard in the future we should include stealth in some characters abilities for being able to bypass these aspects though it'd be best to scale to people like Sharon and other more experienced characters in that regard.

As for equipment hax, you can make what you will from this to decide if it's useable or not. As I understand it with RPG verses this can be a tricky topic but as far as I know equipment is useable if its canon presence is substantiated. I've pulled up what I can find that seems fitting for extra abilities :

Byakuya 利剣「白夜」 Asagiri 朝霧	Augmented by a strange ore. Can supposedly cut light itself. A longsword with a special blade. Scatters light when swung.	Possible limited light manipulation.
Hiou 利剣「緋皇」	A longsword that turns passion to strength. Made of strange ore.	Extra Statistics Amplification justification + Possible Empowerment from turning passion/willpower into amplified stats.
Kukoutou 虚空刀	A rare blade that melds with empty space when it cuts.	Limited Invisibility - This blade melds through space itself to cover it as it cuts.
Raden no Tachi 螺鈿ノ太刀	A tachi with a pearl decoration. Always strikes its target.	Possible Homing Attack/Maybe Limited Causaility - This blade always hits/homes in on its target.