Lavos vs BB (Ending the Inevitable)

[ThisIsMySwagPack]

If you kill her in the present she will still exist in the future etc.

I'd still go for inconclusive.

 

[Kaltias]

There is quite a big difference between "exists in past, present and future at once" and "infinite army of BB across space-time". I saw the quote for the former, but not for the latter

 

[ThisIsMySwagPack]

Killing her in the past doesn't affect BB in the present. By applying logic, killing her in the "present" won't affect her in the "future" because from her future perspective, "present" is her past.

 

[Kaltias]

That logic can be applied to literally every character ever who survived a time paradox. It doesn't work like that.

 

[ThisIsMySwagPack]

Then apply it, I don't personally care. That's a logical conclusion.

 

[Kaltias]

Except that fiction doesn't treats it that way?

Unless you want to tell me that if you behead Gilgamesh, a literal instant later he will be fine because he is immune to paradoxes

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

There is quite a big difference between "exists in past, present and future at once" and "infinite army of BB across space-time". I saw the quote for the former, but not for the latter

Basically, every instance of BB throughout time is connected, sharing the same mind. This is different, but linked to her omnipresence. Her omnipresence lets her consciousness but not her physical self be everywhere. Her connected mind lets her physical selves throughout time all share the same mind and knowledge.

I'm not taking TPI to its extreme. No one in fiction ever sees TPI like that. What I'm saying is that because there are an infinite amount of instances within any >0 period of time, BB has an infinite amout of mentally connected selves. Thus, unless there are all destroyed at once, any remaining instances of BB will simply stretch out to infinity again, and some of those instances of BB will probably time travel back to the present or something.

 

[Schnee_One]

"But why isn't this brought up in her other matches?!"

Because it's negated from Equalized Speed

 

[PaChi2]

BFR to DBT. End.

 

[Schnee_One]

Really not a good vote, more reasoning is appreciated

 

[PaChi2]

BFR'ing her to a place where time does not exist takes away her omnipresence across time (in other words, BB disappears from time along with her omnipresence).

And lavos rise as the victor.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Darkness Beyond Time = Imaginary Space

BB hangs out there all the time. She just comes back

Or has her past selves time travel

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Since when has Lavos BFR'd all instances of a person across space-time?

From what I hear, he's just done it to singular instances of people.

If it doesn't affect her past selves, they just time travel to the present to come back

 

[PaChi2]

what.

 

[FateAlbane]

Darkness Beyond Time = Imaginary Space
BB just comes back

Or has her past selves time travel

Nah.

It's non-existence, a dimensional void beyond space-time with no beginning and no end. Unless BB can dish some Multiversal+ range in Teleportation whatever gets BFR'd there isn't coming back.

That being said I doubt Lavos is BFRing an Omnipresent anytime soon.

 

[FateAlbane]

In fact, Unequalized Speed kinda makes the match even more dumb as BB both blitzes across an entire timeline but also blitzes individually as IIRC even her lowballed speed scaling blitzes Lavos to oblivion ridiculously.

 

[PaChi2]

@Fate she isnt technically omnipresent. There is only one body. BFR the body, and the body wont come back.

 

[FateAlbane]

What do you mean?

Isn't it like, you have to kill her infinitely across the timeline or whatever (going from what was said above)?

 

[PaChi2]

What do you mean?

Isn't it like, you have to kill her infinitely across the timeline or whatever (going from what was said above)?

I believe its more like: kill her and the others BBs will remake the body.

BFR the body to where the others cant reach and you are good.

 

[FateAlbane]

Well, I dunno. Whatever the case, only replied here to clarify on the DBT's nature as that does not concern the match itself. Off I go again.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

I wondered if there was a difference between their speeds, seeing as the difference between MFTL+ characters can be all but infinite.

But if Gar gets rid of her omnipresence, Lavos blitzes her across timelines thanks to multiversal range.

Also, I'll quote the Chrono Trigger wiki

"The Darkness Beyond Time is the final wastebasket for timelines nullified by time travel in Chrono Cross. It can be accessed physically as a place.. The Darkness Beyond Time's mechanics are largely theorized, however; it is stated that when timelines are nullified, they end up in the Darkness Beyond Time"

Now the Type Moon wiki on the nature of imaginary space.

"There also exists the Far Side of the Moon, an imaginary space known as the trash bin that is used for storing malicious information and imaginary numbers. Sealed off as "Not For Use" information, it is a higher dimension where the light within the photon crystals is jumbled. It is the "exterior of the world", and can be called the "Garden of the Fallen" built from imaginary numbers in contrast to the Near Side being a cell where the "light of heavenly fire" is imprisoned. Due to his power, Gilgamesh is not allowed to appear on the Near Side of the Moon, so he sleeps in the Far Side instead. Nothing else should be able to exist there because it is the territory of nil, and intelligent life forms should not be allowed or be able to exist there. It is not within normal time, allowing for a series of communications over eighteen days from Earth to take less than a microsecond within the timeframe of the Moon Cell."

They seem pretty similar in nature.

 

[Schnee_One]

I thought it would be more even if I didn't Equalize it but I did know the difference.

So inconclusive for Fate and Monarch?

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Nah, I haven't even voted yet. Just looking through their abilities right now

 

[FateAlbane]

My first piece of advice is not to take the Chrono wikia's word in barely anything as they had an article of fanmade stuff listed as canon for quite a while, in one particular instance.

The problem with the DBT is that it genuinely needed Dimensional Travelling via this guy and a bunch of macguffins to get there (his usual dimensional crossing was moot to get there pre Time Egg+Chrono Cross). Not sure if Imaginary Space is something that hard to reach or get out from.

Should also note that everything there gets erased as soon as it gets there as basically "nullified timelines" equal timelines and events erased from existence. This also happened to beings like the Dragon God IIRC.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

I believe its more like: kill her and the others BBs will remake the body.
BFR the body to where the others cant reach and you are good.

@Fate she isnt technically omnipresent. There is only one body. BFR the body, and the body wont come back.

Not quite. Nowhere did I say the other "BBs will remake the body"

It's like, there are an infinite amount of BBs (and their bodies) throughout time.

Person naturally moves through time. Thus, this person has exists at every point in time (not in space though, obviously) throughout their lifetime. Because any length in time can be divided into an infinite lesser number of instances, there are an infinite number of instances of that person. But a normal person is not connected to their past and future selves. Every instance of that person does not share one mind with the knowledge of all of them

BB does. Every instance of those BBs shares the same mind, with all the knowledge of their past and future selves. And those BBs can time travel. So any number of those infinite BBs can simply time travel to the future and continue fighting if the "present" BB is BFR'd.

Fate has the right idea.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

My first piece of advice is not to take the Chrono wikia's word in barely anything as they had an article of fanmade stuff listed as canon for quite a while, in one particular instance.
The problem with the DBT is that it genuinely needed Dimensional Travelling via this guy and a bunch of macguffins to get there (his usual dimensional crossing was moot to get there pre Time Egg+Chrono Cross). Not sure if Imaginary Space is something that hard to reach or get out from.

Should also note that everything there gets erased as soon as it gets there as basically "nullified timelines" equal timelines and events erased from existence. This also happened to beings like the Dragon God IIRC.

Ok then.

Imaginary number space is a "space" that exists outside normal space time. It's also a realm of non-existence, because it's imaginary, a territory of nil. It's not just a parallel world/timeline, Nasuverse has those and they are different. Just because DBT is hard to get to for characters in Chrono Chross, and Imaginary Space is easier to get to for BB doesn't make it something completely different

So do things in imaginary number space. Gil can live there because he's GIlgamesh, and he's OP. Other things can't exist there. Only "imaginary" (non-existent) things can "exist" within

 

[FateAlbane]

Simply put, your everyday time and dimensional travel does not allow you to get in or out of that place even if you survive going poof when you step there. In verse it recquired the Frozen Flame + the Time Egg + Chrono Cross to get there via Serge.

Now I dunno well enough about how good BB's feats of travelling are to make anything out of that so I won't say she gets in or out or whatever.

Just explaining the place and what we know about it.

 

[FateAlbane]

snip

Kinda does to a degree when there's a person who can warp to 2-D to 3-D space and to 3-D to 4-D and between parallel worlds and that person still isn't able to get there.

Nonetheless, I'm not saying BB can or can't. Leaving that for you all to decide as I'm not taking part on the match proper as much as, like I pointed out above, I'm explaining how it works.

Anyways, if BB ca reach or leave a place like that you should probably give her Multiversal+ range Teleportation as that's what usually assumed you'd need to get in or out of that.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Kinda does to a degree when there's a person who can warp to 2-D to 3-D space and to 3-D to 4-D and between parallel worlds and that person still isn't able to get there.

Which character was this?

 

[FateAlbane]

This person.

Either way isn't this point kinda irrelevant if the thing above about having to kill BB everywhere across space-time is true?

BB is simply blitzing to no end here as far as I can see since she's both everywhere and also ridiculously faster individually.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Physical speed aside, how does she blitz via omnipresence? It isn't physical, she can't just attack from any point.

 

[FateAlbane]

Physical speed aside, how does she blitz via omnipresence? It isn't physical, she can't just attack from any point.

Like this more or less, only she can appear anywhere in the entirety of space-time instantly instead.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

I don't think she can just "appear anywhere" like that though. I'd have to ask Rep though.

 

[FateAlbane]

Eh. Even if we do not consider that, Lavos is not tagging BB for the love of its life with that much of a gap in speed.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Yeah, just wondering if Gar could equalise their physical speed but leave her omnipresence alone.

 

[FateAlbane]

Lavos can't get rid someone Omnipresent across a Timeline as far as I'm aware.

While BB can't put it down permanently for the same reasons as in the previous thread.

The only difference here is that now it's BB kicking Lavos around and testing literally everything 'till she gets bored and goes home.

/thread

 

[Schnee_One]

If I can I will, If I can't I won't

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Can Lavos resist concept manip?

Or Law Manip?

BB could theoretically just purge its concept from space-time with CCC and if even conceptual erasure (which requires more than just basic mid-godly regen) only sends it to the DBT, she can just write Laws saying it can't come back. And CCC does not require its target to be born of Earth.

 

[FateAlbane]

Good luck doing that to as many acausal alternates as there are across time-space and alternate timelines.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Why would there being alternates in other timelines stop her from writing a law saying they can't get into her timeline, or cease to exist if they do? That's still basically BFR