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Kratos VS Dovahkiin is now fair

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A Stoned Orc said:
Dragonborn is tagged as a "Regenerationn User" but no, regen isn't listed on his profile.
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It was Regenerationn (Low-Mid at least)- as it can regen but I don't know why this was removed though since they are no CRT listed about it.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/The_Dovahkiin?oldid=631957

Later it became Mid-Low but now Matthew- looks to have removed it, I wish there a CRT about the change though:

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/index.php?title=The_Dovahkiin&diff=3678567&oldid=3677750
 
Prisoner metaphysics isn't an actual ability it's literally just saying that any possibility is equally valid

So picking one of those possibilities should be allowed
 
Depends. Does it work through Time Manipulation or something more biological like Age Manipulation?
 
I doubt Kratos' mindhax resistance is anywhere near the level needed to withstand bend will
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
People don't understand Dragonrend. People think it's literally just taking away dragons' ability to fly. It's more than that.
Dragons in Elder Scrolls are tiny shards of the Dragon God of Time, Aka Himself. They were never truly born, they just are, and always were, as immutable and immortal beings. They predate the creation of Mundus itself.

They aren't even physical beings either, they have been notably described as "Biological Time Machines powered by ideologies" by authors Michael Kirkbride and Kurt Kuhlmann, and are indeed aspects of the Embodiment of Time itself.

As such, dragons are immortal. Even if their flesh is killed on Nirn they will never fully die, they remain, they linger, as they were and always are.

Dragonrend changes that. It forcibly strips a dragon of their timeless, immortal nature, and makes them experience mortality. The Dragonrend Shout is actually called "JOOR ZAH FRUL" in Dovahzuul, the Dragon Tongue, and it means "Mortal Finite Temporary", exactly the opposite of what dragons are.

So assuming Dragonrend can work on Pennywise, he'd lose his abstract nature and become something mortal, finite and bound by time which the Dovahkiin can straight up punch and kill.

Just like he did to Alduin, killing him forever despite being a major aspect of the Time Dragon, and literally the End of Time.
Click to expand...
Source: https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/2451343#47

I am pretty sure The Dovahkii can powernull Kratos and his Immortality as well since he doesn't have the resistance.
 
I still feel like dragonrend should only null the immortalities that are listed on alduins profile as that's all its shown to null

also the next time I see kirkbride having his word treated like the gospel of tes imma have an aneurysm
 
sNedge1000 said:
Matthew Schroeder said:
People don't understand Dragonrend. People think it's literally just taking away dragons' ability to fly. It's more than that.
Dragons in Elder Scrolls are tiny shards of the Dragon God of Time, Aka Himself. They were never truly born, they just are, and always were, as immutable and immortal beings. They predate the creation of Mundus itself.

They aren't even physical beings either, they have been notably described as "Biological Time Machines powered by ideologies" by authors Michael Kirkbride and Kurt Kuhlmann, and are indeed aspects of the Embodiment of Time itself.

As such, dragons are immortal. Even if their flesh is killed on Nirn they will never fully die, they remain, they linger, as they were and always are.

Dragonrend changes that. It forcibly strips a dragon of their timeless, immortal nature, and makes them experience mortality. The Dragonrend Shout is actually called "JOOR ZAH FRUL" in Dovahzuul, the Dragon Tongue, and it means "Mortal Finite Temporary", exactly the opposite of what dragons are.

So assuming Dragonrend can work on Pennywise, he'd lose his abstract nature and become something mortal, finite and bound by time which the Dovahkiin can straight up punch and kill.

Just like he did to Alduin, killing him forever despite being a major aspect of the Time Dragon, and literally the End of Time.
Click to expand...
Source: https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/2451343#47
I am pretty sure The Dovahkii can powernull Kratos and his Immortality as well since he doesn't have the resistance.
Click to expand...
someone should put that in his profile and put Immortal Killing in his abilities.
 
Paul Frank said:
also the next time I see kirkbride having his word treated like the gospel of tes imma have an aneurysm
Click to expand...
Tfw you can't even explain the shit you wrote and/or helped write without people screaming "reee fanfiction".
 
Can I see the bit where it "forcibly strips a dragon of their timeless, immortal nature"

Because from what I remember of it being described in game, it's essentially just a mental attack that makes the dragon so distracted by the feeling of being mortal that they forget how to fly.
 
Yeah I'm with Monarch. My understanding is that it forces the Dragon to comprehend mortality which is an utterly alien concept to them, so much so they are forced to the ground
 
It imposes the concepts of mortal finite and temporary stripping dragons of their immortality which is so foreign to them they have to land
 
Monarch Laciel said:
Can I see the bit where it "forcibly strips a dragon of their timeless, immortal nature"

Because from what I remember of it being described in game, it's essentially just a mental attack that makes the dragon so distracted by the feeling of being mortal that they forget how to fly.
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Excuse me wot?
 
Monarch Laciel said:
Can I see the bit where it "forcibly strips a dragon of their timeless, immortal nature"
Because from what I remember of it being described in game, it's essentially just a mental attack that makes the dragon so distracted by the feeling of being mortal that they forget how to fly.
Click to expand...
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Dragonrend The translation of it as Matthew explained.
 
"I cannot tell you in detail. I never heard it used. Kogaan. It was the first Thu'um created solely by mortals. It was said to force a dragon to experience the concept of Mortality. A truly vonmindoraan… incomprehensible idea to the immortal dov."

Your kind - joorre - mortals - created it as a weapon against the dov… the dragons. Our hadrimme, our minds cannot even… comprehend its concepts."

The word concept is being used to simply mean an idea, not some platonic archetype thing. They can't comprehend the idea, so they land because they are experiencing an incomprehensible idea, and just got madness manip type 3'd
 
Monarch Laciel said:
"I cannot tell you in detail. I never heard it used. Kogaan. It was the first Thu'um created solely by mortals. It was said to force a dragon to experience the concept of Mortality. A truly vonmindoraan… incomprehensible idea to the immortal dov."'Your kind - joorre - mortals - created it as a weapon against the dov… the dragons. Our hadrimme, our minds cannot even… comprehend its concepts."
The word concept is being used to simply mean an idea, not some platonic archetype thing. They can't comprehend the idea, so they land because they are experiencing an incomprehensible idea, and just got madness manip type 3'd
Click to expand...
I mean, there's the fact that you can't hurt Alduin at all until you use Dragonrend on him. Don't know how that would add to the discussion though.
 
They don't get madness maip type 3'd. The Thu'um literally imposes the concept of mortality on Alduin, and as Matt said above, is the sole reason why you are even able to defeat Alduin.
 
Ok, you want to provide proof of that or just say that Matt said it?

The abilities says nothing about "imposing the concept of mortality" on them. It just says it forces them to experience an idea.
 
You mean besides the fact that you kill an unkillable absolutely immortal being that's part of the trinity oversoul of one of the biggest hierarchies in the verse?
 
If I remember correctly, eating dragon souls to do that to dragons is what makes you a dragonborn in the first place. And Argneir brings up the possibility that Alduin isn't even truly gone because you didn't eat his soul. So where's the proof that he's dead?
 
Monarch Laciel said:
Ok, you want to provide proof of that or just say that Matt said it?
The abilities says nothing about "imposing the concept of mortality" on them. It just says it forces them to experience an idea.
Click to expand...
Dragons like Aldui have Resistance to Mind Manipulation so Madness Manipulation (Type 3) is unlikely to be the cause here. Furthermore, the translation is Mortal Finite Temporary.

Also, it is not Conceptual Manipulation as it would be Non-Qualifying Concepts. The feat is more or less Power Nullification.

Non-Qualifying Concepts
Concepts that are not abstract or universal, such as those outlined in Idealism and Nominalism, do not qualify for conceptual manipulation of any kind. For a character to qualify for conceptual manipulation the character must be able to manipulate abstract and universal concepts.

Indirect manipulation of concepts, such as the universal changing of the object does not qualify as conceptual manipulation. The use of social influence or any non-supernatural power to achieve an alteration of a concept does not qualify as conceptual manipulation, as this is not a direct manipulation of the concept.
 
That's not an argument. If I follow that argument, it is simply better mind manipulation than what has been resisted. Not that resisting mind manipulation helps against resisting type 3 anyway. And I'm glad we both agree it isn't concept manipulation, but the only power it's directly shown to "nullify" is Flight.
 
Dovahzul or the Dragon Tongue is a part of the OP TES brand of magic called Tonal Magic, which is a combo of Sound, Info manips and Reality Warping. It is so called because it can influence and manipulate the underlying tones of reality. So if I yell "Monarch, you baka." in Dovahzul, it means that Monarch will become a baka even if he wasn't before due to the shift in the tones surrounding Monarch.

This also means that TES is one of those verses where you can get literally destroyed in a rap battle. In fact, I believe Sword Singers do just that.
 
Monarch Laciel said:
If I remember correctly, eating dragon souls to do that to dragons is what makes you a dragonborn in the first place. And Argneir brings up the possibility that Alduin isn't even truly gone because you didn't eat his soul. So where's the proof that he's dead?
Click to expand...
"So, it is done. Alduin dilon ( (Alduin's dead)). The Eldest is no more, he who came before all others, and has always been." - Paarthurnax

Given that Paarthunax lives for far longer than Arngeir have been, have a better understanding about time and Alduin's nature than Arngeir, i would rather believe him.
 
Monarch Laciel said:
That's not an argument. If I follow that argument, it is simply better mind manipulation than what has been resisted. Not that resisting mind manipulation helps against resisting type 3 anyway. And I'm glad we both agree it isn't concept manipulation, but the only power it's directly shown to "nullify" is Flight.
Click to expand...
So Alduin being Immortal, Infinite and Everlasting getting nulled accounts for nothing?
 
You didn't eat Alduin's soul........

And we know he is dead because the events in c0da and KINMUNE.
 
Monarch Laciel said:
Can I see the bit where it "forcibly strips a dragon of their timeless, immortal nature"
Because from what I remember of it being described in game, it's essentially just a mental attack that makes the dragon so distracted by the feeling of being mortal that they forget how to fly.
Click to expand...
That's a gross oversimplification of what Dragonrend does, it imposing Mortality upon Dragons is very much a literal thing and not some metaphor, the fact that the Words of Power this Thu'um uses are "Mortal, Finite, Temporary" (i.e the opposite of what Dragons are) only corroborates to that notion.

Paarthurnax even states that Alduin became vulnerable and capable of being hurt by the Dovahkiin after being affected by Dragonrend, so this already proves the Shout does far more than just forcing Dragons to land.
 
Thu'um works by imposing your will onto reality through your Voice. When you use the Dragonrend Thu'um and shout "Mortal, Finite, Temporary" to a dragon, you are literally asserting those ideas as true and enforcing them onto reality, does affecting the dragon thereby. It is the same thing as using a Protonymic / Neonymic Spell to make a Daedric Prince experience mortality.
 
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