Kratos Page.

[Megafanflash]

You list insane claims but don't back them up. You said he is Multi-Solar System level or Low Multiverse level, but then you don't mention any examples related or even comparable to that?

You say at least Massively FTL+ which once again is not proven with any link, citation or example, just a statement that he should be far superior to his Demigod self in raw speed, which then again needs to be proven to have a certain speed.

You claim his striking strength and attack potency to be at least Multi-Solar System Class, likely Low Multiversal since he clashes with Baldur and wins and can close Realm Tears with his raw strength. Once again, this claim is not substanciated. Baldur being able to take down a massive serpent is HIGHBALLING country level. What even is this argument? You don't even know what level of strength is requiered to close Realm Tears. It's never stated to be a Multi-Solar System (at least..) thing.. The clashes Between Baldur and Kratos also depicted their impressive strength and ability, but neither are striking or attacking with more than city block damage between one another, whilst Baldur taking down the Serpent is only as impressive as A: The serpents Size and/or B: The serpents durability.

The only fair decent written here is PROBABLY his lifting strength and Stamina. Please improve or change the thread. I love to use this site when I do debates and such, but this page is emberassing and a perfect example of someone not understanding scaling.

 

[Kepekley23]

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...d_of_War:_Myths_of_the_Norse_(Cosmology_Blog)

Here is your entire answer for AP. 4-A comes from Surtr, who created all stars throughout the 9 realms and and brought heat to the universe, as stated rather explicitly by Mimir and confirmed by outside sources. 2-C comes from at least 5 feats involving the 9 realms (which are universes) or the Yggdrasil (which is stated to be transcendental to all of space and time)..

Speed-wise; I agree it isn't well-explained in the profile itself, but no downgrade is required, here. He scales from the Valkyries, who can fly between all the 9 realms through sheer speed (as stated in the game and visibly described in the Lost Pages). The realms are separate universes, and the space that separates them - the Realm Between Realms, as stated by Mimir - contains the World Tree, countless galaxies & its own cosmos. Considering the Valkyries do this every single time someone dies, they're obviously multi-tasking, which should scale to their general reflex speed.

Not only that, The Primordials's universal deathmatch shown in the God of War Ascension intro would be another MFTL+ feat. It'd scale to this version of Kratos as well, since it's stated in-game that all pantheons are roughly equal to each other in overall power. The Sisters of Fate also have a feat on this level in lore, which totals roughly 3 speed feats.

 

[Megafanflash]

Thanks for the reply.

Speed: I am still having some struggles with these arguments. I understand that Kratos scales to some incredible characters, but he himself lacks the feats listed. As in, the fastest Kratos is known to move is when he dodged lightning, and even that is arguable due to distance, reflex and instinct etc. Another argument is combat speed vs travel speed, which is interesting, as the characters that are incredible fast in the universe don't really seem to have incredible combat speed feats. I just feel like we are highballing every possibility of a potential feat on Kratos's page. I am very satisfied with several other pages on this wiki, and refer to then often. However, this page lacks examples, calcs or even some sort of citation.

Damage output, striking and attack potency: Once again, there is no example of Kratos actually dealing the damage with strike or punch that comes close to anything mentioned on this page. We understand that he scales to some insane characters, but it has to be proven that A: These characters are equal to said potency (eg the Serpent size, which btw, is not multi universe..) and or B: the durablity feats or lore behind the characters. For example, even though a character that could create or impact something on a unversal level etc, does not mean defeating or killing that character counts as a universe-damage feat. That should be common sense and I am sure you would agree. Another hard hitting issue with this is that Kratos doesn't ever come close to any of these feats himself in any game or novel.

I think I'd be a lot more comfortable if we used some of the feats from Kratos himself, and didn't highball everything he scaled towards. Again, huge fan of the site and appriciate A LOT of the work done. Just not this specific case.

 

[Kepekley23]

Speed: And why would he need the feats listed when he has directly defeated and reacted to the characters that show the incredible speed feats in question? That doesn't make any sense. It's ignoring basic logic in favor of cinematic time.

Has Bayonetta ever shown MFTL feats? She hasn't. Not even close.

Has Son Goku ever shown FTL feats? He didn't. Not even close.

They scale to that speed because they can keep up with characters on that level. They don't need that speed themsleves. Literally no page in our wiki uses that logic.

Attack Potency:

Check our page on the matter.

• "A character with a certain degree of attack potency does not necessarily need to cause destructive feats on that level, but can cause damage to characters that can withstand such forces."

Whether the character has shown feats on that level himself is irrelevant. If he constantly defeats people who have feats on that level, then he scales. This is kind of basic logic. What are Whis's universal feats? Absolutely none. What are his planet level feats? None, either. Your logic has him be below planet level.

Where are you taking this "Serpent size" thing from? The World Serpent is 2-C because it has 2-C feats, not because of "its size". Its clash with Thor in Ragnarok damages the World Tree, a construct that transcends the space and time of 9 separate universes, to the point where even a single one of its strands transcends all of space and time. Its first, initial clash with Thor shakes all the Nine Realms, as well.

The World Serpent and other characters with feats on that level need to have their durability be comparable in order to withstand physical attacks from other people that strong. Thor and the Serpent exchanged blows that were ******* up the Yggdrasil itself. It makes zero sense for them not to be capable of withstanding those same blows.

Completely and utterly ridiculous to have every God in the storyline scale to the numerous tier 3 to tier 2 feats they possess in lore, and not have the actual God-Slayer of the story scale.

 

[Megafanflash]

"why would he need the feats listed when he has directly defeated and reacted to the characters that show the incredible speed"

- Did he outspeed them or match their top speed? Is there evidence that their speed in combat is the same as their travel speed between realms? There is so much wrong going on here.

"Has Bayonetta ever shown MFTL feats?"

- No she doesn't. Here are some speed feats with direct examples. Great reddit respect thread.

• Dodges bullets instantaneously.
• She can kick fast enough to set her own leg on fire. Basically re-entry ^^speed.
• She can slow down time to the point that her bullets have little to no movement.
• Slows time far enough to make boulders flying in the wind seem really slow.
• Conversation while Witch Time is acitvated
• Her slow time can make an explosion freeze in place
• An entire boss fight lasting around 5 seconds
• Notice how the guy and the girl begin making their way to the helicopter and at the end Bayonetta defeated the boss and made it the helicopter beofor them.

"Has Son Goku ever shown FTL feats? He didn't. Not even close."

- That is incorrect. He has dodged beams that should move around light speed since early Saiyan Saga. This goes indept with scans and examples: https://youtu.be/69PTxHpjumY?t=836

"They scale to that speed because they can keep up with characters on that level. They don't need that speed themsleves."

- So for this to be true you need to show these characters using their potential or speed in that fight. Character A can be a thousand time faster while traveleing than character B and still lose. Character B is not suddenly faster. To bad you guys use that logic though. I don't get FTL stats by beating FTL characters. You need to prove something relevant to their speed and you need to prove the speed used in that encounter.

"Whether the character has shown feats on that level himself is irrelevant. If he constantly defeats people who have feats on that level, then he scales"

- I think I did a good job explaining this. B can defeat A, A created planets. That does not make B planet level. Once again, you need to prove that the opponoment either has that durabilty or is of that level, either in size or relevant material.

"What are Whis's universal feats? Absolutely none."

- Whis was great enough to easily knock out Beerus. Beerus and Goku clashing fists shook the universe. He is also STATED to be the strongest being in Universe 7. My logic is specific examples that prove their power. Beerus is SHOWN to handle the strongest attacks of the strongest version of Goku, and Whis knocks him out with ease. That would mean I would be satisfied if Kratos fought someone that tanked a planet level attack (an actual one, not the types listed on this page) and destroyed him with one punch, that would be an acceptable planet level damage output. This is however not the case with any of the feats listed for Kratos on this site.

"he World Serpent is 2-C because it has 2-C feats, not because of "its size". Its clash with Thor in Ragnarok damages the World Tree, a construct that transcends the space and time of 9 separate universes, to the point where even a single one of its strands transcends all of space and time. Its first, initial clash with Thor shakes all the Nine Realms, as well."

- Breaking space-time due to damaging something "controlling" spacetime does not = multi-universe. You do not know what damage is needed to impact the World Tree. All we know is that Kratos found it "impossible". Is it only stated through lore or do we actually see the realms shaking? Because I could and would conceed this point if that were the case. I don't think the World Tree feat has any meaning or correlates with being mulitversal etc. However, shaking the realms is something specific enough.

"The World Serpent and other characters with feats on that level need to have their durability be comparable in order to withstand physical attacks from other people that strong. Thor and the Serpent exchanged blows that were ******* up the Yggdrasil itself."

- But they don't actually have feats on that level. That is the whole point. Morever, considering your last point aswell. These is a shitton of examples throughout lore that is later found out to be bogus. Like how every "immortal" or "trancended" character is very much killable and defeatable.

 

[Kepekley23]

> Did he outspeed them or match their top speed? Is there evidence that their speed in combat is the same as their travel speed between realms? There is so much wrong going on here.

Yes. Yes.

> - No she doesn't.

Thank you then. She is MFTL because Jubileus is MFTL. If you disagree, take it up to a CRT. That's how we do things here.

> - I think I did a good job explaining this. B can defeat A, A created planets. That does not make B planet level. Once again, you need to prove that the opponoment either has that durabilty or is of that level, either in size or relevant material.

I've already proven it. Your example is irrelevant.

> So for this to be true you need to show these characters using their potential or speed in that fight.

....Okay? The fact that they're fighting at full power means they're going all-out in speed. Is basic common sense not a thing anymore? Seriously.

> I don't get FTL stats by beating FTL characters.

Yes, you do, unless you kill said character without fighting them.

> Whis was great enough to easily knock out Beerus.

According to your logic, that doesn't matter. Don't pick and choose.

> Breaking space-time due to damaging something "controlling" spacetime does not = multi-universe. You do not know what damage is needed to impact the World Tree

No offense, but you clearly don't know what you're talking about here. Read up on the blog I linked before posting.

The World Tree does not "control" space and time. It transcends it altogether. The tree is so transcendental of the realms that even a single strand of it is shown to be beyond the space and time of all 9 realms. Damaging it is a much superior feat to destroying the realms.

> - But they don't actually have feats on that level.

They do. Those feats are just narrated to us instead of shown. There's no difference between narrated feats and demonstrated feats in validity, if the former are not contradicted or shown to be made up.

> These is a shitton of examples throughout lore that is later found out to be bogus.

God of War never had this be the case. Outside sources all confirm that the lore told by us is true. So no.

> Like how every "immortal" or "trancended" character is very much killable and defeatable.

Immortality

There are many different types of immortality. This isn't a contradiction.

 

[Megafanflash]

"Yes. Yes."

- Then add that evidence in the page? Some sort of scan, gif, or calc. Anything, not just a statement.

"I've already proven it. Your example is irrelevant"

- Yikes, you haven't though. You mentioned characters than have impacted something on a huge scale, not tanked or destroyed planets and universes.

"The fact that they're fighting at full power means they're going all-out in speed. Is basic common sense not a thing anymore?"

- Yes, but their top speed could be their travel speed. Like most of Super-mans best feats are travel related, not combat related.

"Yes, you do, unless you kill said character without fighting them."

- This just insn't true and it sort of should be a huge warning sign to any readers here that this is the quality on this site. A character could direcrly counter you, grab you, or you could slip up, even plot armor. The scenarios are limitless where a slower character beats a faster character. No, it does DEFINETLY not give you "at least their stats".

"The World Tree does not "control" space and time. It transcends it altogether. The tree is so transcendental of the realms that even a single strand of it is shown to be beyond the space and time of all 9 realms. Damaging it is a much superior feat to destroying the realms."

- Sorry, I probably could have articulated that better. There is NO evidence that damaging or destroying the World Tree is X feat. That is not clarifyed anywhere. Sure, that mythological Tree is insanely important and "trancends and goes beyond the space time of all 9 realms", but damaging it still doesn't mean anything. We don't know what it would take to damage it, and just becacuse it has "impact" or what you want to call it, over 9 realms, does not make said feat anything specific. You just chose to highball it for some unknown reason. Again, the only thing we know about that feat is that Kratos found it to be impossible.

"They do. Those feats are just narrated to us instead of shown. There's no difference between narrated feats and demonstrated feats in validity, if the former are not contradicted or shown to be made up."

- Yikes. That is extremely untrue. A shown feat is literal evidence, whilst narrated feats could be stories, exaggerations etc. If narration claims Kratos to have striking damage on a Multi-universe level (it doesn't) it would contradict all depictions in the different media's that never show him to deal any damage even close to for example city level, or less.

"Outside sources all confirm that the lore told by us is true"

- The outside source argument have I only seen made for Kratos. For example, ONE, the creator of One Punch Man said during an interview that Saitama could probably destroy the earth. But does that make Saitama a planet buster? No. Ask any serious power scaling or vs battler. That just isn't the case. He doesn't have the feats. Btw, if you want me to. I can find a couple of examples of lore contradictions with the actual gameplay, and action Kratos encounter throughout his journey.

"There are many different types of immortality. This isn't a contradiction."

- Yeah, Okey. You're right about that one.

 

[Antvasima]

@Kepekley23

Do we link to the explanation blog in the God of War verse page?

 

[Kepekley23]

> - Then add that evidence in the page? Some sort of scan, gif, or calc. Anything, not just a statement.

I can link to that explanation blog on the page if that's what's bothering you so much.

> - Yikes, you haven't though. You mentioned characters than have impacted something on a huge scale, not tanked or destroyed planets and universes.

Damaging the World Tree is much more impressive than destroying universes (which Surtr does, by the way)

> - Yes, but their top speed could be their travel speed. Like most of Super-mans best feats are travel related, not combat related.

I've already told you that the Valkyries (who hold the main speed feat) have shown the ability to multi-task insanely at such speeds, proving their reflexes must scale to their travel speeds. So this is, once again, irrelevant.

> This just insn't true and it sort of should be a huge warning sign to any readers here that this is the quality on this site

If you're opposed to our standards, either stop posting on our site or make a thread on the matter and state your case. We'll see how strong it is. You saying "it isn't true!" is evidence of absolutely nothing.

Your examples are all irrelevant to this situation, anyway. Kratos outspeeds and tags the Sisters of Fate and the Valkyries multiple times through their fight, so he scales beyond their reaction speeds. This is basic common sense.

> - Sorry, I probably could have articulated that better. There is NO evidence that damaging or destroying the World Tree is X feat. That is not clarifyed anywhere

Once again: it is stated that every strand of the World Tree transcends space and time altogether. Therefore, damaging it is a much superior feat to destroying the nine realms (which Surtur does on Ragnarok, as I've already pointed out). You may not agree with our standards, but that's how we do it here.

Tiering System

Attack Potency

> Yikes. That is extremely untrue. A shown feat is literal evidence, whilst narrated feats could be stories, exaggerations etc.

It's stated by multiple interviews and by canonical supporting material that all the lore feats are valid, so no.

> The outside source argument have I only seen made for Kratos. For example, ONE, the creator of One Punch Man said during an interview that Saitama could probably destroy the earth. But does that make Saitama a planet buster? No. Ask any serious power scaling or vs battler.

ONE never said such a thing. It was Murata. Had ONE said it, it'd be 100% valid. Using Saitama of all people to argue is hilarious, considering he performs literally all his feats completely effortlessly.

> Btw, if you want me to. I can find a couple of examples of lore contradictions with the actual gameplay, and action Kratos encounter throughout his journey.

Game Mechanics

Gameplay is completely irrelevant, unless you want to argue the likes of Shulk to be Tier 8 despite beating universal deities.

 

[Megafanflash]

"I can link to that explanation blog on the page if that's what's bothering you so much"

- The page should include some specific examples for the reader to check out, yes. Like calcs or other evidence.

"Damaging the World Tree is much more impressive than destroying universes."

- Prove it.

"I've already told you that the Valkyries (who hold the main speed feat) have shown the ability to multi-task insanely at such speeds, proving their reflexes must scale to their travel speeds."

- Once again, prove it. Leave an example of Kratos matching their speed or something of the sort. Not just beating them in battle, which I explained can be done in hundreds of scenarios without needing to be of equal or greater speed. Even reflexes can in some instances be enough. Whilst Kratos is being tagged by arrows and other thrown weaponary repeatedly.

"If you're opposed to our standards, either stop posting on our site or make a thread on the matter and state your case. We'll see how strong it is. You saying "it isn't true!"

- That is certaintly not what I am doing? Nice strawman I guess? I am going point by point, trying to figure out how and what was going on when making the page for Kratos.

"Kratos outspeeds and tags the Sisters of Fate and the Valkyries multiple times through their fight, so he scales beyond their reaction speeds."

- You know what reaction speed is?.. Anyways, show the example where you claim he outspeeds them at their top speeds which also needs to be articulated and cited somehow.

"Once again: it is stated that every strand of the World Tree transcends space and time altogether. Therefore, damaging it is a much superior feat to destroying the nine realms"

- No. I already explained this. Destroying something that covers and "exists" in all nine realms does not give that thing multi-universal durability or level and damaging or breaking it is an unknown feat. But sure, if you guys only go by that way when creating these pages, I'll be careful to only refer people to evidence instead.

"It's stated by multiple interviews and by canonical supporting material that all the lore feats are valid, so no."

- I'll find some contradictions for yah. Asking the creators on twitter is still not valid evidence of feats.

"ONE never said such a thing. It was Murata. Had ONE said it, it'd be 100% valid. Using Saitama of all people to argue is hilarious, considering he performs literally all his feats completely effortlessly."

- If he does it effortlessly or not is irrelevant. Characters is only as good as their best feats. And no, I don't see serious battle scalers go by statements from the creators over actual material, but that could be your standard here I guess. Btw, Yeah, Murata was the one stating Saitama probably could destroy the world, and ONE stated Saitama is a gag character. We still scale Saitama properly and look away from ONE saying he's a gag character.

"Gameplay is completely irrelevant, unless you want to argue the likes of Shulk to be Tier 8 despite beating universal deities."

- Of course game mechanics are irrelevant. The gameplay, cutscenes and story throughout the games however, is not.

Just so you undestand where I am coming from. I could be COMPLETELY WRONG, but the page currently doesn't explain that. At least I don't think so. You can do what you want with that information. I am not trying to be annoying, sorry if I come across like that.

 

[GojiBoyForever]

Jesus you guys don't have to write Bibles.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, we have already had long discussions about this, and the current statistics have been accepted. Wouldn't it be enough to simply link to the explanation blog within the verse page?

 

[Hellbeast1]

Linking it in the verse page would be advised

 

[Lilixa]

So this is another cinematic-proof debate again ?

i want to respond about this.
You can use scientific fact and simple logic in fiction. But when it come to something that requires statement or lore in certain verse you need something like "philosophical level thinking like that." i don't know how to describe this with good explanation.

But i will give simple case
A : "Valkyrie in God of War is MFTL due to ..(list of feat)"
B : "That is contradiction ! in Gameplay we only saw Valkyrie move peak human speed during fight with Kratos.!"

This is really problematic since you tend to use visualization/animation as a major proof with such feats. "Narrative Feat" and "Animation feat" has same hierarchy. So regarding fight with kratos vs Valkyrie there are 2 perspective perspective 1 : Valkyrie and Kratos are MFTL but due to technical limitation. So we can just see peak human speed during those fight. Perspective 2 : Our eyes has limitation. What if Kratos and Valkyrie are MFTL speed during fight ? But since our eyes has limitation so the speed become not impressive ?

disagreeing with MFTL speed means we ignore the "Context and Narrative lore" that show in the game. And also how about Visual Novel game character that has infinite speed but has no animation feat but with text-based feat ? Do you really need animation feat for that ?

if we know the context, narrative feat is enough regardless if cinematic time seem not impressive to said character. (unless if you want to debate contradiction and inconsistency that affect narrative lore that is different story) Also another thing this is the reason why there are low-end feat and high-end feat in certain verse.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that a link to the blog should be added to the verse page, so we can close this thread.

 

[KLOL506]

Pretty sure it has already been added. I just checked. It's been added since March 13 of this year.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Should we close this thread then?

 

[KLOL506]

Sure.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.