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KNY Speed (Redo)

New calculations would be appreciated, yes.
 
You can ask some calc group members for help if you wish.
 
Insert seems to be the only one here who believes the Swamp Demon is not FTE despite being superior to the Tongue Demon and the Horned demon and lesser demons; if he concedes that Tanjiro is FTE and is fighting seriously, then the fight is at FTE; clear-cut. Evidence have been gathered here to demonstrate that low-level characters are FTE and supersonic .

Swamp Demon > Tongue Demon/Horned Demon > Sonic Attacks. Along with giving Tanjiro and Nezuko a good fight who are both at least supersonic.

Also, the Swamp Demon is not the only Hypersonic calc:

1- Swamp Demon Calc (Hypersonic+ at transonic reactions)

2- Tongue Demon Calc (Hypersoinc at transonic reactions)

3- Spider Demon Calc (Hypersonic+ at superhuman reactions, would be High Hypersonic at transonic reaction)

Also, Dargoo Faust was misinformed about what the MHS calc says as Insert strawmans it in the OP, so you shouldn't cite him unless Dargoo confirms he've read the calc. The fish shown is meant to convey all fish, just like this panel is meant to convey 1800 pieces of flesh even though only 3 dozens or so are shown. If you don't disagree that Muichiro was aiming directly downwards, then he could only hit a fraction of the fish coming at him at a time.

To reitierate my points:

1- The alleged subsonic anti-feats is easily explained by context or common tropes.

2- If the anti-feats are true, there are outliers and thus irrelevant since the characters can easily blitz sound attack and that speed poses no threat to them.
 
I listed people above who agree with me so it isn't just me.

Swamp demon doesn't scale to them. The evidence you gathered is from characters superior to the swamp demon or those weren't fte feats such as Genya's mom or the temple demon.

Dargoo flat out said that the angle shouldn't even matter to the number and that the cross sections weren't uniform.

1. You didn't really explain how Kanroji couldn't finish her attack or just completely destroy Zou Hakuten's head before she got hit as she explicitly takes note of him trying to do something before Tanjirou even warned her. Your argument for Nakime doesn't hold since the author is clealry placing the strum sound before all her attacks for a reason.

2. The MHS rating isn't even consistent and more often than not speed of sound is a viable attack against these characters.
 
I asked how many agree that the Swamp Demon is not FTE specifically; if we are talking about people who agree with you on everything then that is not much. Despite the Swamp Demon scaling above the Tongue/Horned demon (who scale above sonic attack spam) and significantly above those:


Nezuko Kicks Off Demon Head (Dub Clip) Demon Slayer Kimetsu No Yaiba

Screenshot 2020-03-26 at 11.45.16 PM

I am sure we can ask them.

You misinformed Dargoo about the calc with your own admission, a proper evaluation requires reading the calc.

1- I did. Mitsuri knows that Zou Houken is fast so she did a single attack and wanted to retreat afterwards as soon as she hits the ground, but she was caught off-guard as she didn't know he was releasing invisible sonic attacks. "destroying him" requires a blitz which Mitsuri can't do, and is risky since she wants to retreat. If you arguing author intent can you bring quotes? What we know is that the special manipulation is comparable to moving limbs, and that the characters can casually blitz characters who can casually blitz sound.

2- Character speed is consistent since there is a consistent heirarchy of speed; you are arguing the rating is not consistent based on outliers, if we ignore context and consider these sound attacks outliers then they are rejected since we are certain the characters can casually blitz sound-speed opponents.

Blitzing 1
Blitzing 2
Blitzing 3
Blitzing 4
Blitzing 5
Blitzing 6
Blitzing 7
Blitzing 8
Blitzing 9


Yeah, I am sure that if you throw a sound speed opponent this will bve a very hard match, and they'll get hit more often than not. (/s heavy sarcasm if you haven't noticed)

Do you seriously believe that a sound-speed opponent can hit these characters by the way?
 
I do not agree with recalcing the Swamp Demon at Peak Human / Superhuman.

But I also do not think that the Swamp Demon scales to Tanjiro. He comments that he can protect the two civilians if they remain within his range of attack. This is partially because he has his precog smell ability, but he still has to back it up with physical speed fast enough to react to the enemy coming from any direction. Also towards the end of the Swamp Demon fight, Tanjiro saves Nezuko from being attacked in the eye by blitzing across the alleyway.

Tanjiro is clearly faster than the Swamp Demon, and the reason he struggled was he was protecting the two civilians. When he was able to fight on his own, the demon even in its own element inside the swamp, both of them get bodied in a single breath attack.
 
Demon Slayer has pretty linear scaling in the beginning, at least from my perspective.

Temple Demon Ôëê Fodder Demons in Final Selection < Hand Demon Ôëê Swamp Demon < Susamaru (Temari Demon) & Yahaba (Arrow Demon) Ôëê Kyogai [Except for the speed of his Demon Blood Art]

The Horned Demon and Tongue Demon, I would Put on the same Speed as the Swamp Demon. I do not believe they scale to Kyogai's Demon Blood Art, because he was distracted by the "Marechi" and there were two of them. They were able to strike him from behind and even tear off one of his drums. Kyogai used to be a Lower Moon, but had that position stripped from him because he reached his limit of growth.

Another Way of Organizing my perspective is:

  • Temple Demon / Fodder Demons [Low-end Subsonic, FTE]
  • Hand Demon / Swamp Demon / Horned Demon / Tongue Demon [High-End Subsonic]
  • Susamaru / Yahaba / Kyogai [Subsonic+]
  • Kyogai's Demon Blood Art [Transonic]
Of course these numbers are just my opinion, I am not someone who can do calculations so I am just going off of scaling and visual cues.
 
Anime only scene and no matter how you slice it it won't take precedence over the original source in which he doesn't move fte.

Sanemi can intercept his mom while she's mid attack and Genya reacts to her attacking him in the page right after.

I literally gave him a link to your calc which is what he evaluted you're welcome to check it on my profile or his message wall.

1. Kanroji wasn't planning to retreat. She saw him open his mouth and wandered what he was trying but just decided to cut off his head anyway and then got blasted. You trying to tell me she can't unleash mutliple attacks before a sound wave hit her? The ease of use of her ability doesn't make it MHS. Asx I've repeatdly asked you if Gotouge isn't trying to communicate the speed of the techniques why place the strums before the ability is cast just like with Kyogai?

2. The speed of sound or fte feats still end up as the most consistent showings. If the characters scale higher that's fine but there's still next to no proof for MHS scaling. So all we can do is calc the feats and see were it ends up.

Considering Obanai and Kanroji have been tagged or repelled by such things, the author seems to think they can.
 
I found another issue: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:M3X/Kimetsu_no_Yaiba:_Tanjirou_speed

The calculation that evaluates Tanjiro dodging the Swamp demon seems to make a huge mistake.

It calculates the timeframe based on the Swamp Demon approaching Tanjiro's eye. Then it takes that timeframe and calculates Tanjiros dodging speed if he moved his head fully out of the way, before the Swamp Demon reached where his eye would be.

However, in the panel it is shown that the Swamp demon's hands have gone far past that point, indicating that a much longer time has passed.

Essentially if the calc is saying it took 0.00059 seconds for the Swamp Demon's hand to reach Tanjiro's eye, but he ducked and the hands missed him. The position the hands are at in the next panel show that more than 0.00059 seconds have passed.

So using the 0.00059 seconds to calculate Tanjiro's speed ducking is problematic.
 
@Rage

Respectable position, but Tanjiro said that he can't pursue too far only after the Swamp Demon moved further away, this doesn't mean that Tanjiro won't attack seriously when the Swamp Demon is close. Also, Twisting Whirpool pulls demons in and cuts them up so Tanjiro led them to a trap, and the demon was distracted while attacking Nezuko. Before this, the Swamp Demon demonstrated this:

MOPm1G
Swamp dodge

In the Drum House, Tanjiro had a fractured leg and ribs, would collpase if he put strength in his movements, and was in a lot of pain by just walking, yet he demonstrated a sonic boom indicated by the circular shockwave in the anime (secondary canon overseen by author), he also scales with Zenitsu's Thunderclap & Flash since the Spider Brother can counter it with an attack:

Screenshot 2020-03-27 at 12.53.59 PM Screenshot 2020-03-27 at 2.14.34 PM

Kyogai, the Tongue Demon, and the Horned Demon lost sight of the Mareshi before the fight and weren't distracted by him. They started arguing and threatening each other, the Mareshi slipped into hiding, and then Kyogai delivered the first attack.

Eat competition
At one point during the fight, the Horned Demon managed to slip behind Kyogai and rip-off his back drum. This shows that Tongue Demon and Horned Demon pose a threat to Kyogai even though he spams sonic attacks and can send his opponents flying away with his Spatial Manipulation. So transonic for them is fair.

As for the calc, I think it is an acceptable simplification and doesn't change that much; the Swamp Demon was aiming downwards and twisting his hand, so if Tanjiro wants to avoid a glancing blow he needs to move most of his head out of the path of the wrist around the timeframe.

@Insert creative name here 12

No need to repeate "anime doesn't take precedence!", no one is arguing against that. If you are implying that the anime is incompatible with the manga, then prove it. If the anime showed us the Temple Demon's backstory and revealed that he can breathe fire, it would be canon because it is compatible with the manga even though it is not shown in the manga.

Mom Demon still has FTE feat.

Your question toward Dargoo was built upon a strawman; its word is:

Concerning this calc, would the angle of attacks limit the number launched to one slash per fish? If so why is that?
1- During her attack on a seemingly off-guard Zou Houken, Mitsuri concluded that attacking him head-on was a mistake since decapitating him is useless; this implies that she will stop attacking him head-on and will therefore retreat to figure out a plan; being mid-air she needs to land first to ru, but she idn't expect an invisible attack. She can unleash more attack but: 1) It would be a waste of time, 2) It risks Zou Hauken countering her attacks. Gotouge already communicated the speed of the technique, as easy as moving her body; the style of choreography is often used to convey that the character is reacting. Are you seriously trying to argue that Nakime is as slow as a Lower Moon fodder?

2- So you said we should ignore all MHS showing because top-tiers are incapable of avoiding sound-speed opponents/attacks, and now you are saying that you concede that sound-speed opponents/attacks don't pose a threat to anyone above low-tier (almost all characters) but we should still ignore all MHS showings for some reason?

Can you quote the author? With this kind of supreficial context-ignoring analysis, we can conclude that the author of Boruto doesn't believe that Genin are capable of dodging lightning because they can be tagged by a sound-speed attack. What is your personal opinion, do you seriously believe that a sound-speed opponent stands a chance at hitting the characters shown?
 
Insert creative name here 12 said:
Yes Spino helped calc a feat and now I'm gettinhg it evaluated. Ugarik responded but idk if he's done with the calc yet.
Click to expand...
Okay. That is good.
 
I specifically linked the calc to him. My question doesn't matter when he had your calc right there and looked at it himself as proven by him mentioning the links in your calc having issues.

1. She admitted she made a mistake in thinking she could kill him that way and specifically acknowledged him trying to attack her before then so she still had tons of time to do literally anything. A technique being as easy to use as moving your limbs doesn't communicate speed. Many times in fiction a character will say their ability is as easy to use as breathing or like a reflex but that doesn't infer their ability is MHS or instant. If Gotouge is portraying that so be it, she seems to be of the opinion that speed of sound attacks are viable against her characters as shiown by the emotion clones doing it.

2. I said there's next to no MHS showings all that's there is your calc which Dargoo disagreed with by saying the cross sections weren't identical and that the angle shouldn't limit the slashes at all and Kanroji dodging Zou Hakuten's attacks. Please dont put words in my mouth I said if they scale above it fine but you do realize all the fte feats you posted doesn't make them far above speed of sound (fte is subsonic+). Tanjirou dodging a drum beat was calced and it came out at superhuman.

Last I checked lightning timing in Naruto is a Jounin and above feat. In my opinion I don't think the top tiers are MHS and seeing as how they have been hit or repelled by speed of sound attacks yeah they can be hit by them.
 
You can ask some more calc group members for help if you wish. You can tell them that I would appreciate it.
 
@Torein Three accepted calcs for feats already exists.

1- Swamp Demon Calc (Hypersonic+ at transonic reactions)

2- Tongue Demon Calc (Hypersoinc at transonic reactions)

3- Spider Demon Calc (Hypersonic+ at superhuman reactions, would be High Hypersonic at transonic reaction)

@Insert creative name here 12

He still went with your flawed and misleading characterization, even thinking the fish were blown away in one go, thus not understanding the argument a calc member already accepted.

1- She didn't acknowledge that he is trying to attack her; she acknowledged that he is acting strange by standing still with his mouth open, which makes sense since she was unaware he could release invisible sound attacks from his mouth, further actions/attacks can be countered and she only needs to retreat once she hits the ground to make a plan on how to find the real body; we should try to reconcile outliers and I find this easily reconcilable, if you don't then this is simply an unreconcilable outlier or PIS that should be rejected since sound-speed opponents do not constitute a threat to mid-tiers as shown above. Moving something as easily as limbs indicates high reaction time and therefore high speed; if the praise comes from a MHS+ character then it implies MHS+ scaling. Invisible unexpected attacks could be viable in general; it does not follow that such attacks are viable because they are 'fast'; as shown previously "sound speed" is at a very low tier and an opponent at this speed is considered a useless fodder by mid tiers. An attack that is considered viable because it is fast is lightning, which Gotouge portrayed characters capable of dodging.

2- Only one MHS showing is needed, and there are multiples; verse speeds are often based on a small handful of calcs that scale to a large amount of characters. Dargoo did not mention anything about angles, in fact he argues that Muichiro could hit the entire mass with each cut. Why wouldn't Kyogai scale with Nakime according to your logic; don't you believe that the speed of their abilities is limited at exactly the speed of sound? Ok, but how is the calc relevant when there are superior feats and calcs?

Genin Boruto kids have lightning timing feats even if there are a few outliers, but I don't think most people would consider the page shown an anti-feat since it is reconcilable via. invisible unexpected attack.
 
M3X mentioned his swamp demon calc was rejected a while ago. Maybe I'm wrong but Swamp demon definitely doesn't scale to that.

Transonic reactions for the tongue demon doesn't really make sense. Injuring

He didn't. You're clearly being misleading as I corrected him that Muichiro actually cut all the fish and he gave a final response and disregarded his previous statements. If he looked at your calc, saw the results and formulated his own opinion, that doesn't fall on me or make him misinformed.

1. She acknowledges the demon trying something and still had plenty of time to react seeing as how she was warned her attack wouldn't work and was still hit without being able to counter at all. According to you what should be baseline high hypersonic Tanjirou gets hit with a speed of sound attack before he can even attack (say what you want about the demon's flight speed but Tanjirou proved he was faster than him and should've still launched his attack before the demon). The strum of an instrument precedes her attacks and Gotouge shows this every time she's on screen. Gotouge portrayed characters dodging electricity that wasn't even cloud to ground lightning. Tanjirou even avoided Zou Hakuten's lightning but still got blasted by a sound based attack before he could perform an attack. Kanroji also earlier dodges a sonic attack so either it isn't invisible or she somehow percieved and avoided it.

2. In those verses there's consistentcy. In Bleach for example, characters regularly react to light based attacks or have several statements of doing so. In MHA characters regularly display fte feats or react to bullets. Demon Slayer has an apparently MHS character who also uses sonic attacks and scales to someone who gets tagged by speed of sound attacks. Right my bad, he states the cross sections aren't identical though and says a small amount of slices would eliminate all the fish. Apperently they do. Gotouge protrayed two characters with virtually the same ability and consistently shows one can repel high tiers. It could simply be BoS Tanjirou isn't speed of sound as Spino's calc of him dodging Kyogai came out at superhuman (still need to get it evaluated though).

Did the lightning dodging feat occur in the manga? I don't remember seeing it there.
 
So should we use the accepted calculation blogs to scale from?
 
I thought that Shadow used 3 accepted examples.
 
The first calc according to M3X was rejected.

The second calc at supersonic+ could work but I'd still like to get the other feats calced first.

The third calc could also work but lets wait for the other calcs to be done first.

Also last time I talked to Damage about using transonic reaction he said peak human is what should be assumed.
 
According to Peter the transonic speed in the Swamp Demon calc should not be used sinced M3x scaled the Swamp Demon to Kyogai, however it hasn't been rejected to my knowledge. The transonic version is still usable by scaling the Swamp Demon to a slower Tanjiro casually creating a sonic shock wave with a fractured leg, and to being superior to the Tongue/Horned Demons who pose a threat to Kyogai. Also, if the drum calc is blatantly below others, then it is of very low priority.

Don't think new points are brought in 1, but if you are unable to grasp the concept of unexpected invisible attacks, you can simply consider them PIS, since we know speed of sound opponents don't pose a threat.

Wait your version of consistency is that Kyogai is as fast as the high tiers who can keep with Muzan, in other words he is faster than almost any character in the whole series including most of the Hashira and Upper Moons? Sorry, but this cannot be taken seriously. What do we say to that: "Wow, amazing that an injured BoS Tanjiro can keep up with a top-tier character with his speed."

It has been consistently shown the speed of sound characters are fodders and casually blited , and the characters who blitz them are also casually blitzed due to the massive speed gap between characters.

The Boruto anime is canon (has author involvement, mentioned in official timeline, anime-original arcs referenced in manga), but in the manga the Boruto kids kept up with Ao and Boro who reacted to Mitsuki's lightning attack.
 
Then the calc shouldn't be used since it relies on false evidence. When did Tanjirou make a sonic shockwave with a fractured leg?

Mitsuri previously doidged a speed of sound attack and Tanjirou was hit by Zou Hakuten using one before he could attack.

According to the calc done by Spino Kyogai's attack could be dodged with superhuman speed. He really doesn't need to scale to the top tiers. Also I'm just trying to get evrything calced so we can determine the scaling using what is most consistent.

As was previously said, even if the anime is secondary canon, it is still secondary and shouldn't be taken over the original source.

Then the Boruto kids are properly scaled if they're fighting Jounins and keeping up.
 
> 2- Only one MHS showing is needed, and there are multiples; verse speeds are often based on a small handful of calcs that scale to a large amount of characters.

Let's not pretend that this isn't a big problem. There should be a demonstrated consistency in calcs / feats, not just a single impressive calc that everyone in the verse scales to.
 
PsychicCipher said:
Not actually into this discussion, but should I add Demon!Tanjiro's image and key?
Click to expand...
Isn't this a little bit too early?
 
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