KNY Speed (Redo)

[Antvasima]

@Damage

So what should we do here in summary?

 

[Damage3245]

Seems like Insert creative name here 12 has some more calcs that he'd like assistance with. He can leave a message on my Message Wall detailing the issues if he'd like.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

Thanks Damage.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for helping out.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Then the calc shouldn't be used since it relies on false evidence. When did Tanjirou make a sonic shockwave with a fractured leg?

Hence I cited better evidence which makes the transonic version usable. I linked the feat multiple times, and even posted it as a picture. Have you been skimming the replies or something?

Mitsuri previously doidged a speed of sound attack and Tanjirou was hit by Zou Hakuten using one before he could attack.

And in all cases the characters were mid-air and unaware of their opponent's attack and ability, or they were stunned. If you don't agree with the concept consider it PIS. Otherwise claiming that fodder low tiers can perceive speed of sound opponents, but high-tiers would get casually blitzed and fodderized by speed of sound opponents is completely incoherent.

According to the calc done by Spino Kyogai's attack could be dodged with superhuman speed. He really doesn't need to scale to the top tiers. Also I'm just trying to get evrything calced so we can determine the scaling using what is most consistent.

You previously said that he scales to Nakime as UP4, who scales to the top-tiers. Which is it, does he scale to Nakime at exactly the speed of sound or not?

Let's not pretend that this isn't a big problem. There should be a demonstrated consistency in calcs / feats, not just a single impressive calc that everyone in the verse scales to.

Obviously a calc would apply to the character and those comparable/superior, not literally everyone in the verse, given that it is not an outlier. In this case claiming that mid or high tiers are incapable of blitzing a speed of sound opponent is inconsistent, which leads to absurd conclusions such as that Kyogai constitutes a major threat to the Hashira.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

Once again anime only scene. It didn't happen in the manga and doesn't take precedence over it. Majority of the fte feats you provided were from people who are superior to the swamp demon or were directly debunked by said fte character only moving like that in the anime or being percieved and intercepted by a normal human.

Tanjirou being mid air doesn't prevent him from attacking as he clearly tried to do so twice. Kanroji displayed the ability to dodge his sound wave and would therefore be able to react to it when she realises she made a mistake. I said Kyogai apparently scales to Nakime based on what Gotouge was showing us, two almost identical sound based abilites. However due to Spino's calc showing Kyogai can be dodged with superhuman speed, that doesn't seem to be the case.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Still no argument against using the anime adaption, therefore we should use it. Stating obvious statements like "This scene is from the anime! The manga is the higher canon!" is not making an argument, it is making obvious observations no one is arguing against. It could be that you are trying to imply an argument, if you do please spell it out. For example, are you saying that we should ignore the anime despite being secondary canon supervised by the author? Are you claiming that the scene in the anime adaption is incompatible with scene the manga? Have you found someone who agrees with you that the Swamp Demon, who Tanjiro had trouble landing a clean hit on, is incapable of FTE movement, despite inferior low-level demons being shown doing so?

Being mid-air doesn't prevent him from flying or falling into in invisible wall either. Mitsuri was aware the wood dragons are capable of sonic attacks after saving Tanjiro, she was not aware Zou Houken is capable of doing so from his mouth; the characters kept getting surprised by the number of abilities Zou Houken has.

A transonic projectile can be dodged, if the person is +16 m away, with superhuman speed you mean. I am afraid there is no way to reconcile this; this is straight-up incoherent downplay.



What next? Gotōge was trying to imply that Kyogai and BoS Tanjiro are faster than almost all the characters in the manga.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

Ignore my argument all you want it's still very clear. The scene wasn't displayed that way in the manga and it isn't right to take the anime over the manga it's that simple. Normal human percieves swamp demon twice and swamp demon has no fte feats. Sanemi's mom is intercepeted by a child mid attack, temple demon never moved fte in the manga. No matter how you slice it, these demons never moved fte within the manga.

How would she be aware of that from saving Tanjirou? She didn't see him get blasted. How did she dodge the sound wave even though she's never seen it? Tanjirou had several meters between him and the dragon and still got blasted.

It's what the calc has displayed. After everything else is done, we'll see what's most consistent and decide on the scaling from there.

If Gotouge portrays pretty much the same ability working against low tier and top tiers that isn't really on me.

 

[RageComment]

I might have to reread the fights with the Biwa Demon, but at first glance, knowing that Tanjiro had to get increasingly faster and stronger with various trainings in between arcs, I don't think that the Pillars are below Hypersonic. If I would Place Lower Moons at Supersonic from Scaling, and Upper Moons fodderize them.

My gripe was with speed of Lightning calcs, but The characters being less than match 5-10 by the end of the series seems rather contradictory. Again I don't have calcs, I am essentially eyeballing and using x < y < z sort of thinking. I'll put more thought into this later, but I do not support anything that lowers the Pillars below Hypersonic.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

I'm not against the pillars being hypersonic or more however, we need proof and consistency for that. Other feats are being calced and when that's done we can determine the most consistent scaling.

 

[Antvasima]

Have you reached a conclusion here?

 

[Damage3245]

I'm working with Insert creative name here 12 to calc some of the feats that can be calced. I'll post an update here when the calcs are finished and evaluated.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for helping out.

 

[RageComment]

Uh, did this ever get handled?
I was going over Demon Slayer with my friend and she was surprised that their profiles on the wiki still have even early tier characters as way faster than the series otherwise indicates.

The Hand Demon in the Forest being Hypersonic+ while Kyogai a former Lower Moon's best attacks are Transonic is extremely wonky.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Uh, did this ever get handled?
I was going over Demon Slayer with my friend and she was surprised that their profiles on the wiki still have even early tier characters as way faster than the series otherwise indicates.

The Hand Demon in the Forest being Hypersonic+ while Kyogai a former Lower Moon's best attacks are Transonic is extremely wonky.

I don't think that it was.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Tanjiro made short work of Kyogai once he figured out how to move without further injuring his broken leg and rips; Tanjiro said that when his fractures grind he can't generate any strength, so he was severly nerfed in the battle.

Kyogai can spawn sonic claws but that is not his best attack; that would be his room rotation Spatial Manipulation which he uses to send people flying in an other direction if they get close to him. So his attack speed is not baseline transonic as he combines it with Spatial Manipulation to make it more effective.

 

[Antvasima]

Uh, did this ever get handled?
I was going over Demon Slayer with my friend and she was surprised that their profiles on the wiki still have even early tier characters as way faster than the series otherwise indicates.

The Hand Demon in the Forest being Hypersonic+ while Kyogai a former Lower Moon's best attacks are Transonic is extremely wonky.

@Damage3245

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

A speed feat that is relatively simple to calc was mentioned in the discussion thread:

 

[Antvasima]

@DemonGodMitchAubin @Damage3245 @Wokistan @Therefir

Would any of you be willing to calculate the feat?

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

Uh, did this ever get handled?
I was going over Demon Slayer with my friend and she was surprised that their profiles on the wiki still have even early tier characters as way faster than the series otherwise indicates.

The Hand Demon in the Forest being Hypersonic+ while Kyogai a former Lower Moon's best attacks are Transonic is extremely wonky.

Several people disagreed and it went on for months with no progress. I’m just gonna reiterate my points and assuming people still wanna deny all this in favour of faulty lighting claims sure. I’m not gonna waste several more months debating.

Characters get tagged by sound waves and Tanjirou gets hit twice by a sound wave before he can make a move.

Supposedly Hypersonic+ Tanjirou struggles with a Transonic opponent in a fight and specifically notes the speed is a problem.

Nothing indicates any of the lighting shown in the show is natural lighting especially when Kaigaku’s has unusual properties (skin cracking).

The current Hypersonic+ calc functions under the premise the Swamp Demon is speed of sound based on nothing especially since a normal human can perceive him attack more than once.

 

[Duedate8898]

In actuality the downgrade was agreed upon, it just never got applied due to waiting for calcs to replace the old ones.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

^ Which downgrade specifically, as I don't recall agreement to replace all or most calcs + no coherent alternative speed scaling was proposed (apparently Muzan and beginning of series Tanjiro are argued to have around the same speed).

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

^ Which downgrade specifically, as I don't recall agreement to replace all or most calcs + no coherent alternative speed scaling was proposed (apparently Muzan and beginning of series Tanjiro are argued to have around the same speed).

Several people agreed with the downgrade much more than those that disagreed. Really even though Muzan scales above stronger versions Tanjirou and even Gyomei.

In actuality the downgrade was agreed upon, it just never got applied due to waiting for calcs to replace the old ones.

my bad I was remembering the other one.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Can you give the number of people who agree with your claim that low and mid-tier demons are below subsonic, and your claim that Kyogai is fast enough to hit Muzan?

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

Go back through the thread. Damage, Duedate, Torein all agree with me (more people did as well). I also never said Kyogai scales to Muzan don’t strawman.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

And according to you, several people disagreed. How can we claim that this is 'agreed upon'?

This is what you said:

If Gotouge portrays pretty much the same ability working against low tier and top tiers that isn't really on me.

In other words, Kyogai and Nakime both have the same attack speed, and they can both hit top tiers like Muzan. Is this an accurate interpretation of your statement?

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

And according to you, several people disagreed. How can we claim that this is 'agreed upon'?

This is what you said:

In other words, Kyogai and Nakime both have the same attack speed, and they can both hit top tiers like Muzan. Is this an accurate interpretation of your statement?

As I said previously (please read my posts), I was confusing it with the other thread.

When did either of them hit Muzan?

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

They didn't, though it is about your claim that the attack speed of Kyogai is comparable to the attack speed of Nakime who can hit top tiers.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

Both are sound based abilities. Only difference being the instrument and Nakime’s has better control than Kyogai’s.

 

[RageComment]

I think reacalculating the Swamp demon feat with FTE rather than Speed of Sound, might bring the speed to something more coherent.
I am iffy on the Lightning Speed thing with Zenitsu.

Though I do wonder how that Muzan feat where he catches the fleeing Lower Moon would be calculated.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

The swamp demon wasn’t FTE though. At best he was low end subsonic.

 

[RageComment]

FTE = Subsonic
Low end subsonic IS FTE
FTE starts at 34.3 m/s

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

FTE is more than just speed. Various other factors play a part in it.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

So how will an Obanai fight vs Kyogai fight go? It will be super-intense and difficult for Obanai, right?

Newly turned demons are FTE, but demons powerful enough to use blood demon arts and give Tanjiro a good fight are not FTE.

 

[Duedate8898]

Don't know why you're trying to use that as proof, not only is the demon seen blurred in that panel, the page after that shows him looking up towards where she landed.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

We’ve been over this she isn’t FTE.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Where can we see a blurred demon in the panel (which would still be FTE movement), because I don't?
Unsure about your point, as Genya was also looking toward the destroyed lightbulb while having no clue what sliced his siblings into pieces.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

We’ve been over this she isn’t FTE.

If you are bored about discussing or think that discussion is making assertions, then elaborate on Obanai vs Kyogai as I asked above.

 

[Duedate8898]

Where can we see a blurred demon in the panel (which would still be FTE movement), because I don't?
Unsure about your point, as Genya was also looking toward the destroyed lightbulb while having no clue what sliced his siblings into pieces.

The body flying through the air in the panel, that's the mom. And something blurring isn't faster than eyesight, that's just a means of displaying speed with no connotation to how fast she's going.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

Also inputting superhuman speed for the swamp demon calc I end up with subsonic Tanjirou with supersonic+ reactions

Using subsonic speed I got supersonic with hypersonic perception. Seeing as how Tanjirou had problems with Kyogai and called his attacks fast I’m leaning towards the lower end