Kirito vs Kratos [GRACE]

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Space has cold temperatures no doubt, its just surviving in space does not give resistances to extreme cold cuz space can't extract heat from body due to lack of matter...i.e prevents conduction and convection.

But yeah thats besides the point....

Not even these Surtr's fire can burn in Helhiem. They just can't exist there, it goes more beyond just unfavorable conditions and into law manipulation territory.

Blades Of Chaos simply override the laws to burn in Helhiem.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

People do freeze in space though. It isn’t instant but they still radiate heat and Kirito’s ice directly worked on AH who vibes in space it’s whole life and it is specifically brought up that it resists the cold of space. Kirito’s ice only failed because AH has greater lifting and couldn’t be frozen, something that Kratos doesn’t have.

Would that not just be resistance to law manip then? If fire simply isn’t allowed to exist in Helheim but people can just take a stroll through it then it’s not the cold that shuts down the fire but law hax or some equivalent.

 

[Shmooply]

Well, I guess this was bound to happen.
following

 

[Kaantantr]

You guys are missing the point that the Blue Rose Sword doesn't "freeze by reducing their temperature", it just generates chunks of ice and traps enemies inside that ice. That's why you see multiple people breaking out throughout Alicization. Because they are not frozen, they are just trapped in a chunk of ice.

I have no clue where this misunderstanding comes from, but I'll go check the keys and issue CRTs, seeing that it comes up so often that people are consistently misled by it.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Eugeo literally froze the bath solid? It does freeze things.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

People do freeze in space though. It isn’t instant but they still radiate heat and Kirito’s ice directly worked on AH who vibes in space it’s whole life and it is specifically brought up that it resists the cold of space. Kirito’s ice only failed because AH has greater lifting and couldn’t be frozen, something that Kratos doesn’t have.

Well background radiations, sunrays also exist in space so.......it could even cancel out leaking body heat.....
Point is anyway you slice it, mine or yours its assumption territory.
Besides its not necessary to have same temperature as space itself even when frozen, you could be 0°C be frozen........
From what I remember reading articles about there's a lot of factors to consider.

Would that not just be resistance to law manip then? If fire simply isn’t allowed to exist in Helheim but people can just take a stroll through it then it’s not the cold that shuts down the fire but law hax or some equivalent

Its a thing because its cold, they are not mutually exclusive, its a cause for this effect.

People can't take a stroll there, only spirits and ice monsters live there, Odin can't survive there....let alone Surtr.

Even Cory Balrog said interesting thing about Helhiem being colder then physically possible, but I have to sift through copius amounts of interviews to find it cuz I don't remember where he said it.

 

[Kaantantr]

Eugeo literally froze the bath solid? It does freeze things.

The water did freeze because of interacting with the spatial resources (cryogenic potentially) discharged by the Memory Release of the sword. As you can also see, neither Eugeo nor Bercouli were "frozen", both of them were literally trapped in the ice that was generated around them.

Never in the series you see or read characters getting frozen, and that is because the Sword does not have the ability to. If you are going to claim it can freeze its opponents, then you need to show precedence for it. All the dozens of events clearly show it only encapsulates people in ice chunks. More often than not, not even completely, but through the veins of the roses.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

I did show it freezes stuff though. You claimed it only summoned ice whereas I gave an example of when the sword blatantly froze the surroundings and not simply encased them in ice. You can’t say cryogenic elements froze the water while claiming that it doesn’t freeze humans who are primarily made of water. It’s power isn’t to surround people in ice but to freeze things.

 

[Kaantantr]

You can’t say cryogenic elements froze the water while claiming that it doesn’t freeze humans who are primarily made of water.

We have seen at least a dozen occasions as to how it does not freeze humans. If you are going to claim it does, then you are going to need to show some evidence. Extrapolating like that is just head canon contradicting reality of the fact that it simply does not freeze anything but the nearby water existing there as normal, pure water.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

We see that the cold from BR affects Eugeo and Bercoulli to an extent. It’s called resistance. People being frozen by ice and breaking out is resistance. Sonic gets frozen and breaks out got him resistance, Natsu getting frozen and melting out got him resistance, AH getting frozen and breaking out got it resistance. Hell, even Kratos got ice resistance from fighting ice harpies which either hit him with ice or froze him.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

I maybe arguing for Kratos and against Kirito here, but I will express that people breaking out of ice would be resistance for them rather than anti-feat for ice.

 

[Kaantantr]

What they are affected by is the life draining of the Blue Rose Sword to be specific. Underworld is built with a game engine, the "resistance" you are talking about is not a "resistance", it's having enough of a strength parameter to destroy an object, in this case, the ice chunk. What it boils down to is that Underworld is a game world, whereas comparisons you are making are of series taking place in the real world with actual ice acting as actual ice. Ice is no different than any other material you can coat a character with, just a layer of object.

But either way, the argument I was making was regarding the "Space+" mention in the first place, as it was arguing "It froze a creature that could live in the cold of space". It didn't freeze a creature in the cold of space with something colder than space. It simply trapped it in a chunk of ice. Hence why I am trying to distinguish between "freezing" and "trapping".

The "Ice Resistance" is being used here to make a decision without understanding what the weapon does in the first place, with people trying to portray it as something more powerful than it actually is with fancy language that doesn't apply to the series. Something some people do quite often.

 

[Vietthai96]

I maybe arguing for Kratos and against Kirito here, but I will express that people breaking out of ice would be resistance for them rather than anti-feat for ice.

Well, actually, if the ice do not affect you and just trap you like a bunch of rock, break out of it is just AP feat

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

So what you are saying is laws of thermal equilibrium don't exist in artificial world of SAO??

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Well, actually, if the ice do not affect you and just trap you like a bunch of rock, break out of it is just AP feat

But heat exchange between hot and cold bodies still happens.

 

[Vietthai96]

But heat exchange between hot and cold bodies still happens.

Then at best it is just give you resistance to cold depend on how cold the ice is, resistance to ice is when you actually resist have your body turn into ice

 

[Kaantantr]

But heat exchange between hot and cold bodies still happens.

It does. However it does not affect you the same way the real world does.

You do get cold, but unlike the cold making you numb or powerless in real life, all it will do is eventually cause you to get status debuffs, like catching cold, as well as harming your Life value. It will not cause you to go rigid. It's the same thing as not getting tired in Underworld. If you overexert yourself, you won't get tired as there is no human biology involved in your avatar, you have no real muscles to produce acids to make them feel powerless. You'll just start losing HP after a while of overexerting yourself but still keep going at full power like no tomorrow.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

So basically game mechanics and charcater's artificial virtual physiology then......

Maybe create a physiology page for them, you could state a bunch of differences from real world physics and biology.
It will also help in vs battles to help analyze how other franchise hax works on SAO guys and vice versa.

I could see them getting inorganic physiology, absence of soul and stuff...if its possible that is.

Snip

 

[Vietthai96]

It does. However it does not affect you the same way the real world does.

You do get cold, but unlike the cold making you numb or powerless in real life, all it will do is eventually cause you to get status debuffs, like catching cold, as well as harming your Life value. It will not cause you to go rigid. It's the same thing as not getting tired in Underworld. If you overexert yourself, you won't get tired as there is no human biology involved in your avatar, you have no real muscles to produce acids to make them feel powerless. You'll just start losing HP after a while of overexerting yourself but still keep going at full power like no tomorrow.

Actually, in this situation, in a vs battle, Kirito facing a character from other series, and this character have real biology muscles, so the ice still affect his body's heat normally though, unless the ice act different

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Yeah what Veit said, Standard Battle Assumptions and Verse Equalization is a thing afterall

 

[Kaantantr]

So basically game mechanics and charcater's artificial virtual physiology then......

Maybe create a physiology page for them, you could state a bunch of differences from real world physics and biology.
It will also help in vs battles to help analyze how other franchise hax works on SAO guys and vice versa.

I could do that. I was looking for ways to familiarize myself with the place to help around clear misunderstandings and holes etc, so I appreciate the suggestion, thanks!

Actually, in this situation, in a vs battle, Kirito facing a character from other series, and this character have real biology muscles, so the ice still affect his body's heat normally though, unless the ice act different

Sure, that is up for you to debate. I was just pointing out that the point of contention should be "getting trapped in a chunk of ice" rather than "frozen to below space temperatures" as the latter is a completely inaccurate description of what the weapon does.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

One thing though, if this is a strength thing then wouldn't breaking out of ice be a AP feat for characters, cuz you can say ice scales to Kirito and rest scale to breaking this ice.

 

[Kaantantr]

Since nobody has said anything, I'd figure I'd chime in again. I'll preface this by saying I am not a fan of pitting characters from different series against each other as it causes a lot of issues because they play by distinctly different rules, and also mention that I do not believe the "Neutral-verse" standard here solves it either, especially when powers are specifically tied to universes, as in "the universe the character comes from, is part of the characters' power".

Once the Blue Rose Sword generates the chunks of ice to trap the other character, by which rules does the generated ice play by? Because the ice in Underworld, the ice in real world and potentially the ice in the opposing characters' world plays by different sets of rules. If you standardize the ice into "normal" by giving it real life properties, you are effectively boosting Kirito by giving it capabilities that it did not have in Underworld for example. Essentially, while trying to create a "neutral" verse to get rid of universe bias, you are adding a third set of rules that affects the powers of both sides, effectively adding bias.

A similar example on the other side of the scale is that these weapons work on Spatial Resources and a neutral-verse would feature no spatial resources, causing the weapons to consistently destroy themselves by draining their own durability to be able to continue fighting, effectively nerfing characters coming from Underworld.

However, I am sure there is a standard use here that someone more experienced can point out. While it may create unintended bias on an individual level, a standard is a standard that at least ensures a consistency throughout the entire concept of "pitting characters against each other".

But if you ask me, ice generated via Underworld rules, should play by Underworld rules. It should harm the "life" of the opponent, but do not cause them to go stiff like a real ice.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Well exceptions to the rule should be pointed out on profiles, so it can be undertood that some leeway needs be given to verse specific abilities or physiologies.

Ice generally 90% of time works same everywhere.....so normaly such exceptions as SAO are not encountered.
And Vs matches are flexible enough to allow improvisations on fly for a more "fairer" or spicier match.
Hell even stuff outside peofiles is allowed as long as you can show strong proof for it.

 

[Vietthai96]

Since nobody has said anything, I'd figure I'd chime in again. I'll preface this by saying I am not a fan of pitting characters from different series against each other as it causes a lot of issues because they play by distinctly different rules, and also mention that I do not believe the "Neutral-verse" standard here solves it either, especially when powers are specifically tied to universes, as in "the universe the character comes from, is part of the characters' power".

Once the Blue Rose Sword generates the chunks of ice to trap the other character, by which rules does the generated ice play by? Because the ice in Underworld, the ice in real world and potentially the ice in the opposing characters' world plays by different sets of rules. If you standardize the ice into "normal" by giving it real life properties, you are effectively boosting Kirito by giving it capabilities that it did not have in Underworld for example. Essentially, while trying to create a "neutral" verse to get rid of universe bias, you are adding a third set of rules that affects the powers of both sides, effectively adding bias.

A similar example on the other side of the scale is that these weapons work on Spatial Resources and a neutral-verse would feature no spatial resources, causing the weapons to consistently destroy themselves by draining their own durability to be able to continue fighting, effectively nerfing characters coming from Underworld.

However, I am sure there is a standard use here that someone more experienced can point out. While it may create unintended bias on an individual level, a standard is a standard that at least ensures a consistency throughout the entire concept of "pitting characters against each other".

But if you ask me, ice generated via Underworld rules, should play by Underworld rules. It should harm the "life" of the opponent, but do not cause them to go stiff like a real ice.

Humm, i could understand your point, so this supposed "ice" work differently, but well, most people on site doesn't know that much about SAO generally, so the only thing we can do is assume the "ice" as it work like real-life ice as they have that visual. If it is truly work differently, you should make another CRT to revise its properties, that what the Content Revision Thread for, as we revise the character to have more accurate information on their rating/abilities based on the evidence listing in the thread....

 

[Smashtwig]

Question about the ice though, why do you need specifically lifting strength for breaking out of it? Why can’t you use AP instead?

like I should find it hard to believe that say, a 4-A can’t break out of a small ice cube because the guy has no feats of lifting strength

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

But no one said that Lifting Strength is mandatory.........it wasn't even braught up.

 

[Smashtwig]

I just hear that sometimes

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Because if something is pinning you in place, your striking doesn't matter while your lifting does. The only time you would use AP to break out of the ice is if you directly punch it or you have a weapon/power of some kind that can strike it.

 

[Smashtwig]

So it's a case by case depending on the victim's arsenal I guess

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

So continuing the debate...... what else can Kirito do??

 

[Smashtwig]

Pretty sure Kirito has nothing after Freeze GG that gets past resistance

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Kirito still have viable wincons, AP advantage allows him to kill Kratos with conventional attacks.
So of he can keep dodging Kratos's attacks and get his own hits in...he can win.

 

[RitsuØ1]

Pretty sure Kirito has nothing after Freeze GG that gets past resistance

Kirito has shown to increase the size of his sword and clash with the opponent after Freeze GG

 

[Smashtwig]

den i guess he s0rd after freeze or smth

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

At this point its futile to talk about ice anyway,
Lets talk about something concrete.
How good is Kirito's skill lvl, whats his fighting style?

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Also Kratos can amp himself with Rage of Gods get closer to Kirito's AP.

 

[RitsuØ1]

How good is Kirito's skill lvl,

Sword Skills Alone: Average
Sword Skills With Abilities (Enhance Armament & Release Recollection): Mastered

whats his fighting style?

Usually using Enhance Armament & Release Recollection

At this point its futile to talk about ice anyway,

Why?

den i guess he s0rd after freeze or smth

I guess? ¯\(ツ)/¯

 

[Vietthai96]

Sword Skills Alone: Average
Sword Skills With Abilities (Enhance Armament & Release Recollection): Mastered

What Gilver mean is how much skillfully Kirito is in swordmanship, not some kind of game level.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

What Viet said.
As far as I have seen these guys exploit the "no pain" system and artificial bodies unnatural biology to tank hits if they think they can, instead of dodging them, since they don't suffer lasting damage.

So if Kirito is coming with that mentality.......he is screwed.

Kratos can simply escape the ice with Activation of Rage of Gods. That super form allows him to instantly break through complete petrification, hell in any game he can do that whether its Rage of Titans or Rage of Spartans or Thera's Bane.

Then he goes around swinging and slamming his blades like mad man, spamming his magic on top.