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They were neutral
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Kirby Cosmology Upgrade Part 2
- Thread starter Peptocoptr27
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@Peptocoptr27 Can you make a hypothetical AP explanation for the Master Crown with this change in a comment? The text that would go "Attack Potency: [Here]" that anyone would read to understand why a profile has the tiers they have. I'll criticize from there.
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Gotta wait for Pepto to reply first. He is the one with the counters and so far the only one who consistently makes counters to Pepto so far is Everything12
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- #285
Because?
You said it yourself. I provided clarifications on my end. I didn't even say anything new so I assume this is the first time you read them. Now it's up to you to explain why that clarification is insufficient. You can't just keep saying "it's not enough" and hope that'll shut me up, especially now that the votes are stacked against you.
CloverDragon blatantly agrees, and to call Ultima "neutral" is misleading at best. He literally said that if the texts state an actual superiority over space and time (which they do), said superiority can only be qualitative (a.k.a Low 1-C in this case). Read it again if you have to.
Assuming the MC does scale to Low 1-C, I don't see what the point would be other than to distract from the main topic and shift it towards an even more controversial tier upgrade that I don't even know how to go about having. I even said in the OP that I want to avoid that, because this is loaded enough as is. Unless I'm missing something, this seems like nothing but an attempt to preemptively shut down tier 1 Kirby characters before that topic even becomes relevant, all because you're out of options to refute the upgrade I'm actually suggesting.
If you really cared more about reaching the correct conclusion in this thread than you do about shutting down tier 1 Kirby in every way you possibly can, shouldn't you instead be asking me how I would edit the current cosmology blog?
The thread is doing better than it ever did. Idk what this panic is about.
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- #286
Bump
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Bump
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I got tired of the tactic of arguing against 1 thing and being told "you can't do that because of this other thing" when both are wrong, arguing against an AP explanation would have avoided needlessly going in circles. Your blog is too casual and unprofessional, it's some conversation about the info you give that takes its time to give it and goes over why it's correct, when it should just limit itself to present the info in an organized way.
We don't know if it's "beyond", "to exceed" or "exceeding", but it isn't necessarily the latter, it can just as easily say that the place is not in the universe, unlike a dimension/reality that's inside Kirby's universe. Even saying that AD exceeds/is superior to the universe, this is meaningless, as any dimension can do that and not be Low 1-C.
The translation again is not as objective as you portray it, 超えた, which is used, can also mean either to cross over; to cross; to pass through; to pass over (out of), or Beyond. Idk where you get "is greater than".
This is stupid, "In rough terms [qualitative superiority] means as much as being "more than countably infinite times greater in power or size"." To put it in a very short way. It's literally impossible for "beyond" to be imply this in any remote way, there is no magic context that does this.
Neither of them refers to qualitative superiority because neither Exceeds or Beyond can refer to qualitative superiority on their own.
It easily takes the least amount of speculation to say that Kirby travelled to the future and it leaves needless plot holes to say otherwise. This is not hard to think about.
AD is a multiverse but doesn't transcend anything in any way that matters.
That part has now been updated;
So AD exceeds/transcends/is greater than/is superior than/whatever word you want to throw at it that means the same, it doesn't mean "this can be Low 1-C" in the same way saying "You're powerful" doesn't mean a character is 5-A.
Jigen is used as precisely as Dimension ("Reality of unknown size"), don't make a deal out of it, which again doesn't matter anyway.
Our Speed page is pretty imprecise and incompetent so I'm not gonna go over that.
This is a ridiculous conclusion. We're not really told that "AD is the space between dimensions", a characters says "I bet there's lots of stuff there in the space between dimensions..." when looking at another character making a portal to an unknown little bit of AD from a regular reality. It could refer to the cut/portal itself, how it could have made a portal into many universes to pick from, and this would mean said universe isn't in the space between dimensions. It's not really clear. But even if it means that that space and all AD is in the space between universes, we don't know if it's the all space between dimensions rather than occupying some of it. For example, if I talk about stuff being in the space between planets in our Solar system I can be referring to ALL the space between planets, or maybe I put planetoids in between planets or a series of 30-meter thicc roads in between them, which they are in the space between planets, but do not accupy all of it. If a universe is this regular thing and the space between universes is this fantastical thing then AD can be a regular thing located inside a fantastical thing.
All universes inside AD are part of AD, the extra-dimensional road is AD.
"What does it mean?" is not excuse for "Either it means what I want it to mean or I won't like what else it could mean", contrary to what many Kirby fans think. We know a lot of AD's weird gimmicks, it's a wacky place, portals through it can be used for Dimensional Travel and Time Travel. Any universe in fiction can have this simple features while other universes in the same verse don't and thus be portrayed as special, important and superior due to it. Also, it's a small multiverse, it has many universes in it, why would it not be superior to 1 universe/space and time?
We don't know if it's "beyond", "to exceed" or "exceeding", but it isn't necessarily the latter, it can just as easily say that the place is not in the universe, unlike a dimension/reality that's inside Kirby's universe. Even saying that AD exceeds/is superior to the universe, this is meaningless, as any dimension can do that and not be Low 1-C.
The translation again is not as objective as you portray it, 超えた, which is used, can also mean either to cross over; to cross; to pass through; to pass over (out of), or Beyond. Idk where you get "is greater than".
This is stupid, "In rough terms [qualitative superiority] means as much as being "more than countably infinite times greater in power or size"." To put it in a very short way. It's literally impossible for "beyond" to be imply this in any remote way, there is no magic context that does this.
Neither of them refers to qualitative superiority because neither Exceeds or Beyond can refer to qualitative superiority on their own.
It easily takes the least amount of speculation to say that Kirby travelled to the future and it leaves needless plot holes to say otherwise. This is not hard to think about.
AD is a multiverse but doesn't transcend anything in any way that matters.
That part has now been updated;
So AD exceeds/transcends/is greater than/is superior than/whatever word you want to throw at it that means the same, it doesn't mean "this can be Low 1-C" in the same way saying "You're powerful" doesn't mean a character is 5-A.
Jigen is used as precisely as Dimension ("Reality of unknown size"), don't make a deal out of it, which again doesn't matter anyway.
Our Speed page is pretty imprecise and incompetent so I'm not gonna go over that.
This is a ridiculous conclusion. We're not really told that "AD is the space between dimensions", a characters says "I bet there's lots of stuff there in the space between dimensions..." when looking at another character making a portal to an unknown little bit of AD from a regular reality. It could refer to the cut/portal itself, how it could have made a portal into many universes to pick from, and this would mean said universe isn't in the space between dimensions. It's not really clear. But even if it means that that space and all AD is in the space between universes, we don't know if it's the all space between dimensions rather than occupying some of it. For example, if I talk about stuff being in the space between planets in our Solar system I can be referring to ALL the space between planets, or maybe I put planetoids in between planets or a series of 30-meter thicc roads in between them, which they are in the space between planets, but do not accupy all of it. If a universe is this regular thing and the space between universes is this fantastical thing then AD can be a regular thing located inside a fantastical thing.
All universes inside AD are part of AD, the extra-dimensional road is AD.
"What does it mean?" is not excuse for "Either it means what I want it to mean or I won't like what else it could mean", contrary to what many Kirby fans think. We know a lot of AD's weird gimmicks, it's a wacky place, portals through it can be used for Dimensional Travel and Time Travel. Any universe in fiction can have this simple features while other universes in the same verse don't and thus be portrayed as special, important and superior due to it. Also, it's a small multiverse, it has many universes in it, why would it not be superior to 1 universe/space and time?
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Eh, he was fine from what I could tell.
So @Eficiente and @Everything12 disagree while @CloverDragon03 and @Elizhaa agree, from what I can tell.
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Elizhaa stated they were neutral.
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- #293
I'm gonna remove some of the less important, out-dated or repetitive stuff for the sake of brievity since you seem hate long paragraph arguments even more than I do. We might finally be going somewhere so I'm not gonna throw that away.
I don't really get what you're saying with your criticism of my blog, but it's kinda pointless to change it now. Let's at least set the record straight first. If both of my claims are wrong, it's about time you tried to call me out on it. Wish you would've done so earlier.
If you had read my sources, you would know that's wrong, and AD isn't just superior to the universe. It's superior to said universe's dimensionality, including its space-time.
You don't know? Do you want me to link everything again? Because I could. I just don't really have much time right now if I want to post this response at an appropriate time.
Instead of repeating the same points as usual, now seems like a right time to bring up the fact that the timelines in AD are portrayed as flat, fading projections in RtD. E12 said that this is meaningless, but I don't buy it because we already have statements that essentially say AD is of a higher dimensionality than space-time, along with containing said space-time continuums within itself. Why would visual evidence of them being percieved as 2D and intangible from AD's perspective count for nothing when that's easily the most straightforward way to represent higher dimensionality in a visual media?
False equivalence. A better comparison would be to say it can be Low 1-C in the same way a character can be 5-A by saying "You're more powerful than every weapon in the universe (including one which can destroy any planet)". Keep in mind, AD isn't just superior to a 4D structure, it's superior to the very foundation of all 4D structures.
It absolutely matters, hence why I bothered to provide so many sources to back up my claim. Something you didn't do.
Aight. Time for another edit lmao.
That's downplay for downplay's sake and Occam's razor dismantles it. It wouldn't make any sense for the statement to refer to the portal because a portal isn't a space. It's a point that connects two spaces together. When you look at it that way, you could say AD still serves the same perpose despite being accessed through a portal because it's explicitely stated and shown to connect multiple universes together across multiple points in space-time, and when not a single instance of inter-dimensional travel in the series has been done through something other than AD (aside from a few pocket realities like the mirror world) the Most logical explanation is that it connects all of the verse's universes to each other. That makes way more sense than assuming there's some other completely unexplored "fantastical thing" AD is located in.
Thanks for confirming that AD does in fact contain all of those timelines within itself. I agree. My point was that just because the universes are inside a 5D space doesn't mean they're 5D themselves. I guess that was kind of pointless to point out in retrospect, but it's still a counter-argument I saw when in a private discussion with someone on the Wiki.
That's right. It's not an excuse. It's a request to find an explanation more reasonable than what I've already proven to be reasonable via accurate translations.
Because, again, it's not just superior to said universe's space-time, but also its dimensional axes. Knowing it's a wacky place is cool and all, but when we have statements that perfectly explain why and how it's wacky, it seems wierd to dismiss them in favor of "it's a wierd place". We have a perfectly good explanation right there.
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No, the logic behind this claim is nonsensical.
- I say the text can either say "another dimensional road beyond space-time" or "another dimensional road superior to space-time"
- The source you give links how space there means space, meaing the dimension of height, depth, and width within which all things exist and move.
- Now you say that because of that source, it had to mean "another dimensional road superior to space-time"
This is what I meant by "the tactic of arguing against 1 thing and being told "you can't do that because of this other thing" when both are wrong", the point was that you already knew both points were wrong but it takes time (from me) to get to point out why. I personally believe/can suspect you're aware of what you do and others are in on it, but between that or innocence it always has to be the latter, so I feel empty.
It doesn't matter.
First time I read this. That is a wild interpretation, it's not just wrong, lesser takes take infinite times less speculation. I don't know where to start, so in no orden of importance: Those are not timelines, you don't know what they are, but even if they were something like that, it would take far less speculation that they would be universes, not timelines. In turn it would take far, far less speculation that they would be the limited places they show themselves as rather than all those projections being the whole timelines. And that's assuming they are/lead to those universes like portals, they can just showing images of places inside universes in AD w/o being those places, say, like the Speed Force showing images of events across time, 'cause it makes no sense to fly around space and see images like that. That they are flat and fading projections could be a design choice rather than anything canon, they're hard to see, passed by and far away in the background, they could easily be 3D and/or not fading when looked at close. But even as flat and somewhat fading images, even as universes, they still take a space within AD and are a part of it, not a 0% of it, that's still how a multiverse can have its universes in it. It reminds me of this, but you may ignore it, another comparison could be if a human didn't have a normal heart but a flat projection of it that's "fading" just like those projections; that's still a part of its body, the point being that the heart wouldn't be nothing to the human, just like the universes of a multiverse wouldn't be nothing to them.
No, you don't.
A multiverse has universes in it, sure that.
As said before those are not timelines, idk why you make them up to be intangible too. Your whole premise is misguided.
You overhype mixing exceeds/transcends/is greater than/is superior than and time-space.
That you have many sources saying the same doesn't mean it matters in the made up way you think.
The text could have referred to the space between dimensions in the way a portal connects the two realities together, you failed to understand what I said.
Maybe AD connects all of the verse's universes, sure, but don't claim it w/o evidence. The last part was just a point of reference.
You're talking on your own here.
Don't be stubborn, there is no need for an explanation, you want to add made up meaning to something that works on its own.
1. It's just as likely that it's outside Kirby's dimension rather than superior to it. 2. Jigen in turn doesn't always mean "the 4 dimensions that make up space-time continuums" unless proven, it still refers to: "Dimension" as vaguely as in English; "realities of unknown size" as part of it; Lesser dimensions than a space-time continuum like the 3rt Dimension; "perspective; point of reference; level (of something)"; or "Dimensionality", as all your links also show. 3. A multiverse with many universes in it would be superior to one universe, that doesn't mean Low 1-C. The text says 1 world but it could have been plural as it's in Japanese.
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I'm siding with Eficiente here.
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@Peptocoptr27 On the reply, rather than reply to those 9 or so parts that don't all matter I think it would be better if you could make individual explanations on why you believe things like Jigen only being space-time continuum, why kanjis that can mean either superior or beyond only mean the former, and idk what else.
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Fine by me since there are many misconceptions that need to be adressed far more urgently than others. I'll respond as soon as I can and answer your most important questions/assumptions.
(Edited for a more professional tone)
(Edited for a more professional tone)
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Since you clearly only bothered to read the very first sources of my first claim, here are my other ones, again.
Jigen
Here, we see that it straight up translates to "dimensionality" as much as it does "dimension".
Here is the Wikipedia page for Jigen that expands upon this.
Here is the Jisho page for Jigen that actually bothers to define what it means by "dimension". This is one of the few Jisho pages that goes out of its way to precisely define what the kanjis are referring to instead of simply translating them into English words. That alone should tell you everything you need to know since Jisho is one of the most reliable sources for online Japanese to English translations.
To sum it up, Jigen translates to dimension or dimensionality depending on the context, but in both cases it refers to them in a mathematical sense, which absolutely matters for the purposes of this discussion. If the texts wanted to use the term "dimension" in the sense of a reality of unknown size, they would have most likely used "Isekai" as Kirby games (and so many other franchises) often do.
Koeru (越える vs 超える)
Here we have the Jisho page for Koeru that explicitly makes a distinction between the two variations. The first one refers to going outside the limits of something or crossing it. The second one refers to a superiority over something.
I verified this with a translation community and it is in fact true.
The Kirby statements about AD uses the second variation, including the Twitter statement. There's no denying any of this. You can't say I make shit up for my own personal agenda when you're the one ignoring the meaningful sources I provided to objectively back up my claim.
The fact that you say things like:
Jigen
Here, we see that it straight up translates to "dimensionality" as much as it does "dimension".
Here is the Wikipedia page for Jigen that expands upon this.
Here is the Jisho page for Jigen that actually bothers to define what it means by "dimension". This is one of the few Jisho pages that goes out of its way to precisely define what the kanjis are referring to instead of simply translating them into English words. That alone should tell you everything you need to know since Jisho is one of the most reliable sources for online Japanese to English translations.
To sum it up, Jigen translates to dimension or dimensionality depending on the context, but in both cases it refers to them in a mathematical sense, which absolutely matters for the purposes of this discussion. If the texts wanted to use the term "dimension" in the sense of a reality of unknown size, they would have most likely used "Isekai" as Kirby games (and so many other franchises) often do.
Koeru (越える vs 超える)
Here we have the Jisho page for Koeru that explicitly makes a distinction between the two variations. The first one refers to going outside the limits of something or crossing it. The second one refers to a superiority over something.
I verified this with a translation community and it is in fact true.
The Kirby statements about AD uses the second variation, including the Twitter statement. There's no denying any of this. You can't say I make shit up for my own personal agenda when you're the one ignoring the meaningful sources I provided to objectively back up my claim.
The fact that you say things like:
among other straw-man fallacies proves that you only recently started paying attention. Better late than never though, so I'd like to provide you with more stuff while I have your attention, but this is as simple and straight-forward as it gets for a dimensional tiering discussion.
Yep, me neither lol
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ngl this is 10x more solid than what i remember it to be.
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- #303
Perhaps Effi's misunderstanding wasn't entirely his fault then. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and apolagize for not being more clear earlier if that's the case
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Can somebody list all of the staff members who have helped out in this thread previously please?
A quoted or newly written explanation post regarding what they currently need to evaluate would also be appreciated.
A quoted or newly written explanation post regarding what they currently need to evaluate would also be appreciated.
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idk but this is definitely a solid argument. We have solid evidence that jigen is dimension and it is followed by solid evidence that it is transcendent and not beyond
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ultima, elizhaa, eficiente and everything12 so far i believe. The latter two are already here and the former two have commented that they were neutral but agreed with some of the points
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i won't, but at least know that the evidence is very much solid at the moment
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Thank you. There is this issue to take care of as well though.
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Cloverdragon03 also responded and although he's not a mod he's still staff so that's something
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ah right, so he was here too and it seems he agreed
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Yeah. CloverDragon agreed and Elixirblue agreed very early on in the thread before deleting his comment and switching to neutral. I'd like to know what he thinks now, but I can't seem to reach him
Would it be helpful if I made the staff votes bold in the OP?
Would it be helpful if I made the staff votes bold in the OP?
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Yes it definitely would.
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On the Wikipedia page
- On top of everything it says "Dimension One of the concepts in mathematics" (次元 数学における概念の一つ), it's not that the kanji always refers to that, this meaning of the word is what the page is explaining.
- Likewise after explaining well that concepts it even says "Also, in turn, dimension may mean the structure of the world." (また、転じて次元は世界の構造を意味することがある。), tho you should already know this by the bullet point before.
- The stuff in the bullet point before in turn was some warning in the place where it was explaining what that take on Dimension means, a whole section below called "Diverted expression" (転用表現) goes over other meanings the word has that, among them being Perspective / Scale, World as in reality of unknown size (which is pointed out to often be used in fiction), among other meanings.
- You linked a version of that wikipedia page from 2011 when it falsely claimed this to be the Jap. meaning of Dimension rather than the take on the word as a concept in physics and mathematics in its categories. This would be shady as f*ck if it weren't because we're too soft to do something about it rather than to let it pass, so I again feel empty.
The 3rt, last take it gives on the word is is Dimension as it's used in physics and mathematics, the first is just Dimension as in something else (Could be anything), and second "perspective; point of reference; level (of something)". You have no reason to overhype things when even the source you link doesn't say what you aim it to be.
That's false, as anyone with common sense can read from the pages above, even the 2011 version of that wikipedia page if they don't feel like clicking to see the modern one.
This is some crazy idea you made up, Jigen is not just frequently used as in "reality of unknown size" in fiction, but there are cases of this being the case in Kirby, here for example (The Energy Spheres did not cross over the 1st dimension, 2nd, 3rt and 4th in Kirby's universe, they went into other realities/dimensions, hence they were in other realities). The reason why you made up that only Isekai can be used as "reality of unknown" is not research but convenience, and even w/o evidence against it it would still be a monumental claim to say that a word has never been used in its most common meaning and instead has only been used in its higher take.
Again, your own sources don't exactly imply the same you say. The twitter post says neither 越える or 超える but 超えて. The distinction between 越える or 超える is correct but not as rigid as you portray it, the link given to you by that person in reddit says as much "Depending on the interpretation, both can be used." (解釈によって、どちらも使えます。) And "超える is used when it's about exceeding a certain quantity, standard, or limit. (e.g. living beyond 100 years old, going over quota this month, luggage went overweight, flu cases increased beyond 100,000, etc.)" can be interpreted with exceeding as in something being moved into another quantity, standard or limit rather than the quantity, standard or limit becoming more complex, it's the same on those context.
Well, it's more like you were pushed into better defending your own lack of attention on the matter of Jiren.
You are missing what you make of this, which if you did and said something correct rather than something to be corrected we wouldn't be having this thread. Or how "more than countably infinite times greater in power or size", which even that is a rough way of saying it, is so easily attainable via 1 word over space-time/dimension.
Considering the amount of pushovers one can imagine follow this thread, this comments you're making don't really help. I don't find them professional, they're not what an staff would say at least.
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do i look like staff to you? I can say whatever i want as long as it supports people's opinion and isn't derailing. Also you just dissed a bunch of people. I ain't supposed to judge but dissing people isn't exactly how staff should act either.
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Sure you can, but there is a reason why any person wouldn't; how it sounds, the implications and normalization of it, there is a reason one would limit themselves to just say that they agree with someone, with maybe a more grounded comment next to it. It doesn't matter how you're not a staff, replace that with anyone trying to be a bit more professional, which anyone can be applied as a target of. It's a conclusion per context, it offends in your portrayal of it as it focuses on that, adds objectivity to it and adds on those who would not consider themselves as such to also be called pushovers, which I didn't do.
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bruh we're arguing whether or not a pink marshmellow is 5 dimensional not debating the stock market and the politics of the world. There's 0 reason to be professional here if you're not staff and if you ain't arguing about something actually important about real life. I don't care how it portrays me or my words and if i wanna hype up the argument by saying its legit then i will be doing that.
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