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They were neutralI am neutral but I guess the dimension being Low 1-C could be valid, from the dimensional superiority statement.
Edited.
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They were neutralI am neutral but I guess the dimension being Low 1-C could be valid, from the dimensional superiority statement.
Edited.
Gotta wait for Pepto to reply first. He is the one with the counters and so far the only one who consistently makes counters to Pepto so far is Everything12Oof now this thread is going to die.
Got my hopes up for nothing
Because?My reasons for disagreeing still stands, while their has been clarifications of some subjects I don't judge them as having given sufficient evidence and explanations on the nature of how Another Dimensions exceeds dimensions.
CloverDragon blatantly agrees, and to call Ultima "neutral" is misleading at best. He literally said that if the texts state an actual superiority over space and time (which they do), said superiority can only be qualitative (a.k.a Low 1-C in this case). Read it again if you have to.None really, as far as I know. The two administrators who have weighed their opinion where neutral or didn't declare any stance and mostly just gave their opinion on what it means to achieve Low 1-C.
Assuming the MC does scale to Low 1-C, I don't see what the point would be other than to distract from the main topic and shift it towards an even more controversial tier upgrade that I don't even know how to go about having. I even said in the OP that I want to avoid that, because this is loaded enough as is. Unless I'm missing something, this seems like nothing but an attempt to preemptively shut down tier 1 Kirby characters before that topic even becomes relevant, all because you're out of options to refute the upgrade I'm actually suggesting.@Peptocoptr27 Can you make a hypothetical AP explanation for the Master Crown with this change in a comment? The text that would go "Attack Potency: [Here]" that anyone would read to understand why a profile has the tiers they have. I'll criticize from there.
The thread is doing better than it ever did. Idk what this panic is about.Oof now this thread is going to die.
Got my hopes up for nothing
"The kanjis used for "space-time" are "空間"(space, as the dimension of height, depth, and width within which all things exist and move) and "時間"(time). The kanjis that ended up being translated as "beyond" are "超えよ", which means "exceeding", meaning that Another Dimension's road is outright superior to space-time along with being outside of it."
"Again, the kanji "超え" translates to "is greater than" or "exceeds" in this case, re-inforcing the fact that Another Dimension's road is superior to space-time entirely."
This time, "を越え" is what "beyond" was translated from. This one actually doesn't outright confirm a superiority over space-time like the last one. It translates to the "crossing over" definition of "beyond". However, with added context, it still implies a qualitative superiority over space and time along with being outside of them.
"超えて" is what was translated into "which exceeds". The same kanjis as the ones most often used above. They can be translated to "beyond" if you prefer, but they refer to a qualitative superiority.
When Another Dimension was consumed by dimensional walls, they seemingly traveled to the past. Either that, or Kirby travelled to the future in order to stop them and restore Another Dimension. Or maybe the dimensional walls outright started to consume time like any other spatial dimension without travelling to a time period in particular.
"One of the more straightforward ways to qualify for Tier 2 and up through higher dimensions is by affecting whole higher-dimensional universes which can embed the whole of lower-dimensional ones within themselves."
Another dimension contains entire timelines/parallel worlds and transcends them completely. (Whether or not the Kirby cast can affect it in its entirety is up to a different blog/thread. This is already loaded enough.)
"Likewise, it's not exactly uncommon for time travel (Or any action / process that affects something through different points in time) to be described as "transcending time and space." However, if it is specified that they "transcend space and time" in the sense that they exist on some higher level of reality that is outright superior to a spacetime continuum in nature, then they should be put at Low 1-C, assuming the continuum in question is one comprised of four dimensions."
We know that Another Dimension exceeds the concept of space-time in the Kirby verse. Not much more needs to be said here that hasn't already. It's pretty blatant.
" It's not exactly uncommon for time travel (Or any action / process that affects something through different points in time) to be described as "transcending time and space." Transcend space and time can also refer to a spacetime continuum being different to a "regular" spacetime continuum (Say, a strange-looking reality that may hold a few different physical laws, for example) or slightly do be more complex than a regular universe, even significantly so, but not qualitatively superior. Something A being said to "transcend" something B in real life can refer to the former being superior to the latter in some qualities in a notable way, but still roughly compatible. It does not necessarily mean transcendence not in an immeasurable way that would be graphically indescribable, such as A's qualities being superior to B by infinite amounts. With this in mind, statements of realities or beings with transcendence over space & time/the universe/etc., on their own, are not assumed to refer to qualitatively superiority, unless of course further context may elaborate on and contextualize this."
"Therefore, such descriptors are to be evaluated while taking into account the number of dimensions which the verse has been shown to entertain; for example, a character stated to exist above physical dimensions in relation to a 4-dimensional cosmology would be Low 1-C with no further context."
Another Dimension outright exceeds time and physical dimensions, including the 4 dimensions that make up space-time continuums such as Kirby's main universe, Halcandra, and the numerous parallel worlds inside of AD. It's a 5D space.
From The Speed Page
We already know that it connects more than Pop Star and Halcandra, and it's already agreed upon that it contains entire universes. It leads to many parallel worlds, as well as the the Dream Kingdom, which is referred to as a "distant realm" relative to the main universe. The fact that Another Dimension is simply called "the space between dimensions" and that we know that it leads to all of those universes should be enough evidence that it makes up the space between ALL dimensions, To say that it needs to prove that it's between each and every dimension in the cosmology would be a ridiculous demand.
"It's Inhabited With As Many Fodder Enemies As Any Other Stage"
Those enemies only wander around in the universes contained inside Another Dimension. Saying that it can't be a Low 1-C realm because of that would remove the Low 1-C ranking from so many cosmologies on this Wiki, it isn't even funny. The only time we ever see fodder enemies move in the extra-dimensional road between dimensions is when Magolor summons them in his boss fight. The only reason he does that is so Kirby can gain a Super Abillity and break his shield. In other words, gameplay mechanics/PIS. You can also call it an outlier for the fodder enemies since it's only one instance, not unlike the time a regular Waddle Dee dodged a Jamba Heart that crossed the universe in a short time. That feat didn't count for him, but it still did for King Dedede who did the same feat in the same scene.
"We Still Don't Know The Exact Nature Of Another Dimension's Superiority"
If this ever comes up, I'd simply like to know how what else the statements could mean given what we're shown. What else is needed to clarify beyond any doubt what's still ambiguous to you?
Eh, he was fine from what I could tell.Eficiente seems to make sense in his last post, but he should try to be more polite and respectful in his responses.
I don't really get what you're saying with your criticism of my blog, but it's kinda pointless to change it now. Let's at least set the record straight first. If both of my claims are wrong, it's about time you tried to call me out on it. Wish you would've done so earlier.I got tired of the tactic of arguing against 1 thing and being told "you can't do that because of this other thing" when both are wrong, arguing against an AP explanation would have avoided needlessly going in circles. Your blog is too casual and unprofessional, it's some conversation about the info you give that takes its time to give it and goes over why it's correct, when it should just limit itself to present the info in an organized way.
If you had read my sources, you would know that's wrong, and AD isn't just superior to the universe. It's superior to said universe's dimensionality, including its space-time.We don't know if it's "beyond", "to exceed" or "exceeding", but it isn't necessarily the latter, it can just as easily say that the place is not in the universe, unlike a dimension/reality that's inside Kirby's universe. Even saying that AD exceeds/is superior to the universe, this is meaningless, as any dimension can do that and not be Low 1-C.
You don't know? Do you want me to link everything again? Because I could. I just don't really have much time right now if I want to post this response at an appropriate time.The translation again is not as objective as you portray it, 超えた, which is used, can also mean either to cross over; to cross; to pass through; to pass over (out of), or Beyond. Idk where you get "is greater than".
Instead of repeating the same points as usual, now seems like a right time to bring up the fact that the timelines in AD are portrayed as flat, fading projections in RtD. E12 said that this is meaningless, but I don't buy it because we already have statements that essentially say AD is of a higher dimensionality than space-time, along with containing said space-time continuums within itself. Why would visual evidence of them being percieved as 2D and intangible from AD's perspective count for nothing when that's easily the most straightforward way to represent higher dimensionality in a visual media?AD is a multiverse but doesn't transcend anything in any way that matters.
False equivalence. A better comparison would be to say it can be Low 1-C in the same way a character can be 5-A by saying "You're more powerful than every weapon in the universe (including one which can destroy any planet)". Keep in mind, AD isn't just superior to a 4D structure, it's superior to the very foundation of all 4D structures.So AD exceeds/transcends/is greater than/is superior than/whatever word you want to throw at it that means the same, it doesn't mean "this can be Low 1-C" in the same way saying "You're powerful" doesn't mean a character is 5-A.
It absolutely matters, hence why I bothered to provide so many sources to back up my claim. Something you didn't do.Jigen is used as precisely as Dimension ("Reality of unknown size"), don't make a deal out of it, which again doesn't matter anyway.
Aight. Time for another edit lmao.Our Speed page is pretty imprecise and incompetent so I'm not gonna go over that.
That's downplay for downplay's sake and Occam's razor dismantles it. It wouldn't make any sense for the statement to refer to the portal because a portal isn't a space. It's a point that connects two spaces together. When you look at it that way, you could say AD still serves the same perpose despite being accessed through a portal because it's explicitely stated and shown to connect multiple universes together across multiple points in space-time, and when not a single instance of inter-dimensional travel in the series has been done through something other than AD (aside from a few pocket realities like the mirror world) the Most logical explanation is that it connects all of the verse's universes to each other. That makes way more sense than assuming there's some other completely unexplored "fantastical thing" AD is located in.This is a ridiculous conclusion. We're not really told that "AD is the space between dimensions", a characters says "I bet there's lots of stuff there in the space between dimensions..." when looking at another character making a portal to an unknown little bit of AD from a regular reality. It could refer to the cut/portal itself, how it could have made a portal into many universes to pick from, and this would mean said universe isn't in the space between dimensions. It's not really clear. But even if it means that that space and all AD is in the space between universes, we don't know if it's the all space between dimensions rather than occupying some of it. For example, if I talk about stuff being in the space between planets in our Solar system I can be referring to ALL the space between planets, or maybe I put planetoids in between planets or a series of 30-meter thicc roads in between them, which they are in the space between planets, but do not accupy all of it. If a universe is this regular thing and the space between universes is this fantastical thing then AD can be a regular thing located inside a fantastical thing.
Thanks for confirming that AD does in fact contain all of those timelines within itself. I agree. My point was that just because the universes are inside a 5D space doesn't mean they're 5D themselves. I guess that was kind of pointless to point out in retrospect, but it's still a counter-argument I saw when in a private discussion with someone on the Wiki.All universes inside AD are part of AD, the extra-dimensional road is AD.
That's right. It's not an excuse. It's a request to find an explanation more reasonable than what I've already proven to be reasonable via accurate translations."What does it mean?" is not excuse for "Either it means what I want it to mean or I won't like what else it could mean",
Because, again, it's not just superior to said universe's space-time, but also its dimensional axes. Knowing it's a wacky place is cool and all, but when we have statements that perfectly explain why and how it's wacky, it seems wierd to dismiss them in favor of "it's a wierd place". We have a perfectly good explanation right there.contrary to what many Kirby fans think. We know a lot of AD's weird gimmicks, it's a wacky place, portals through it can be used for Dimensional Travel and Time Travel. Any universe in fiction can have this simple features while other universes in the same verse don't and thus be portrayed as special, important and superior due to it. Also, it's a small multiverse, it has many universes in it, why would it not be superior to 1 universe/space and time?
No, the logic behind this claim is nonsensical.If you had read my sources, you would know that's wrong, and AD isn't just superior to the universe. It's superior to said universe's dimensionality, including its space-time.
It doesn't matter.You don't know? Do you want me to link everything again? Because I could. I just don't really have much time right now if I want to post this response at an appropriate time.
First time I read this. That is a wild interpretation, it's not just wrong, lesser takes take infinite times less speculation. I don't know where to start, so in no orden of importance: Those are not timelines, you don't know what they are, but even if they were something like that, it would take far less speculation that they would be universes, not timelines. In turn it would take far, far less speculation that they would be the limited places they show themselves as rather than all those projections being the whole timelines. And that's assuming they are/lead to those universes like portals, they can just showing images of places inside universes in AD w/o being those places, say, like the Speed Force showing images of events across time, 'cause it makes no sense to fly around space and see images like that. That they are flat and fading projections could be a design choice rather than anything canon, they're hard to see, passed by and far away in the background, they could easily be 3D and/or not fading when looked at close. But even as flat and somewhat fading images, even as universes, they still take a space within AD and are a part of it, not a 0% of it, that's still how a multiverse can have its universes in it. It reminds me of this, but you may ignore it, another comparison could be if a human didn't have a normal heart but a flat projection of it that's "fading" just like those projections; that's still a part of its body, the point being that the heart wouldn't be nothing to the human, just like the universes of a multiverse wouldn't be nothing to them.now seems like a right time to bring up the fact that the timelines in AD are portrayed as flat, fading projections in RtD.
No, you don't.E12 said that this is meaningless, but I don't buy it because we already have statements that essentially say AD is of a higher dimensionality than space-time
A multiverse has universes in it, sure that.along with containing said space-time continuums within itself.
As said before those are not timelines, idk why you make them up to be intangible too. Your whole premise is misguided.Why would visual evidence of them being percieved as 2D and intangible from AD's perspective count for nothing when that's easily the most straightforward way to represent higher dimensionality in a visual media?
You overhype mixing exceeds/transcends/is greater than/is superior than and time-space.False equivalence. A better comparison would be to say it can be Low 1-C in the same way a character can be 5-A by saying "You're more powerful than every weapon in the universe (including one which can destroy any planet)". Keep in mind, AD isn't just superior to a 4D structure, it's superior to the very foundation of all 4D structures.
That you have many sources saying the same doesn't mean it matters in the made up way you think.It absolutely matters, hence why I bothered to provide so many sources to back up my claim. Something you didn't do.
The text could have referred to the space between dimensions in the way a portal connects the two realities together, you failed to understand what I said.That's downplay for downplay's sake and Occam's razor dismantles it. It wouldn't make any sense for the statement to refer to the portal because a portal isn't a space. It's a point that connects two spaces together. When you look at it that way, you could say AD still serves the same perpose despite being accessed through a portal because it's explicitely stated and shown to connect multiple universes together across multiple points in space-time, and when not a single instance of inter-dimensional travel in the series has been done through something other than AD (aside from a few pocket realities like the mirror world) the Most logical explanation is that it connects all of the verse's universes to each other. That makes way more sense than assuming there's some other completely unexplored "fantastical thing" AD is located in.
You're talking on your own here.Thanks for confirming that AD does in fact contain all of those timelines within itself. I agree. My point was that just because the universes are inside a 5D space doesn't mean they're 5D themselves. I guess that was kind of pointless to point out in retrospect, but it's still a counter-argument I saw when in a private discussion with someone on the Wiki.
Don't be stubborn, there is no need for an explanation, you want to add made up meaning to something that works on its own.That's right. It's not an excuse. It's a request to find an explanation more reasonable than what I've already proven to be reasonable via accurate translations.
1. It's just as likely that it's outside Kirby's dimension rather than superior to it. 2. Jigen in turn doesn't always mean "the 4 dimensions that make up space-time continuums" unless proven, it still refers to: "Dimension" as vaguely as in English; "realities of unknown size" as part of it; Lesser dimensions than a space-time continuum like the 3rt Dimension; "perspective; point of reference; level (of something)"; or "Dimensionality", as all your links also show. 3. A multiverse with many universes in it would be superior to one universe, that doesn't mean Low 1-C. The text says 1 world but it could have been plural as it's in Japanese.Because, again, it's not just superior to said universe's space-time, but also its dimensional axes. Knowing it's a wacky place is cool and all, but when we have statements that perfectly explain why and how it's wacky, it seems wierd to dismiss them in favor of "it's a wierd place". We have a perfectly good explanation right there.
among other straw-man fallacies proves that you only recently started paying attention. Better late than never though, so I'd like to provide you with more stuff while I have your attention, but this is as simple and straight-forward as it gets for a dimensional tiering discussion.you could make individual explanations on why you believe things like Jigen only being space-time continuum
Yep, me neither lolidk what else
ngl this is 10x more solid than what i remember it to be.Since you clearly only bothered to read the very first sources of my first claim, here are my other ones, again.
Jigen
Here, we see that it straight up translates to "dimensionality" as much as it does "dimension".
Here is the Wikipedia page for Jigen that expands upon this.
Here is the Jisho page for Jigen that actually bothers to define what it means by "dimension". This is one of the few Jisho pages that goes out of its way to precisely define what the kanjis are referring to instead of simply translating them into English words. That alone should tell you everything you need to know since Jisho is one of the most reliable sources for online Japanese to English translations.
To sum it up, Jigen translates to dimension or dimensionality depending on the context, but in both cases it refers to them in a mathematical sense, which absolutely matters for the purposes of this discussion. If the texts wanted to use the term "dimension" in the sense of a reality of unknown size, they would have most likely used "Isekai" as Kirby games (and so many other franchises) often do.
Koeru (越える vs 超える)
Here we have the Jisho page for Koeru that explicitly makes a distinction between the two variations. The first one refers to going outside the limits of something or crossing it. The second one refers to a superiority over something.
I verified this with a translation community and it is in fact true.
The Kirby statements about AD uses the second variation, including the Twitter statement. There's no denying any of this. You can't say I make shit up for my own personal agenda when you're the one ignoring the meaningful sources I provided to objectively back up my claim.
The fact that you say things like:
among other straw-man fallacies proves that you only recently started paying attention. Better late than never though, so I'd like to provide you with more stuff while I have your attention, but this is as simple and straight-forward as it gets for a dimensional tiering discussion.
Yep, me neither lol
Perhaps Effi's misunderstanding wasn't entirely his fault then. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and apolagize for not being more clear earlier if that's the casengl this is 10x more solid than what i remember it to be.
idk but this is definitely a solid argument. We have solid evidence that jigen is dimension and it is followed by solid evidence that it is transcendent and not beyondDidn't Elizhaa say they'd agree if a solid argument like Pepto's above solidly proved the dimension stuff?
ultima, elizhaa, eficiente and everything12 so far i believe. The latter two are already here and the former two have commented that they were neutral but agreed with some of the pointsCan somebody list all of the staff members who have helped out in this thread previously please?
i won't, but at least know that the evidence is very much solid at the momentDon't give me hope
A quoted or newly written explanation post regarding what they currently need to evaluate would also be appreciated.
Cloverdragon03 also responded and although he's not a mod he's still staff so that's somethingultima, elizhaa, eficiente and everything12 so far i believe. The latter two are already here and the former two have commented that they were neutral but agreed with some of the points
ah right, so he was here too and it seems he agreedCloverdragon03 also responded and although he's not a mod he's still staff so that's something
Yes it definitely would.Yeah. CloverDragon agreed and Elixirblue agreed very early on in the thread before deleting his comment and switching to neutral. I'd like to know what he thinks now, but I can't seem to reach him
Would it be helpful if I made the staff votes bold in the OP?
On the Wikipedia page
The 3rt, last take it gives on the word is is Dimension as it's used in physics and mathematics, the first is just Dimension as in something else (Could be anything), and second "perspective; point of reference; level (of something)". You have no reason to overhype things when even the source you link doesn't say what you aim it to be.Here is the Jisho page for Jigen that actually bothers to define what it means by "dimension". This is one of the few Jisho pages that goes out of its way to precisely define what the kanjis are referring to instead of simply translating them into English words. That alone should tell you everything you need to know since Jisho is one of the most reliable sources for online Japanese to English translations.
That's false, as anyone with common sense can read from the pages above, even the 2011 version of that wikipedia page if they don't feel like clicking to see the modern one.To sum it up, Jigen translates to dimension or dimensionality depending on the context, but in both cases it refers to them in a mathematical sense
This is some crazy idea you made up, Jigen is not just frequently used as in "reality of unknown size" in fiction, but there are cases of this being the case in Kirby, here for example (The Energy Spheres did not cross over the 1st dimension, 2nd, 3rt and 4th in Kirby's universe, they went into other realities/dimensions, hence they were in other realities). The reason why you made up that only Isekai can be used as "reality of unknown" is not research but convenience, and even w/o evidence against it it would still be a monumental claim to say that a word has never been used in its most common meaning and instead has only been used in its higher take.If the texts wanted to use the term "dimension" in the sense of a reality of unknown size, they would have most likely used "Isekai" as Kirby games (and so many other franchises) often do.
Again, your own sources don't exactly imply the same you say. The twitter post says neither 越える or 超える but 超えて. The distinction between 越える or 超える is correct but not as rigid as you portray it, the link given to you by that person in reddit says as much "Depending on the interpretation, both can be used." (解釈によって、どちらも使えます。) And "超える is used when it's about exceeding a certain quantity, standard, or limit. (e.g. living beyond 100 years old, going over quota this month, luggage went overweight, flu cases increased beyond 100,000, etc.)" can be interpreted with exceeding as in something being moved into another quantity, standard or limit rather than the quantity, standard or limit becoming more complex, it's the same on those context.Koeru (越える vs 超える)
Here we have the Jisho page for Koeru that explicitly makes a distinction between the two variations. The first one refers to going outside the limits of something or crossing it. The second one refers to a superiority over something.
I verified this with a translation community and it is in fact true.
The Kirby statements about AD uses the second variation, including the Twitter statement. There's no denying any of this. You can't say I make shit up for my own personal agenda when you're the one ignoring the meaningful sources I provided to objectively back up my claim.
Well, it's more like you were pushed into better defending your own lack of attention on the matter of Jiren.among other straw-man fallacies proves that you only recently started paying attention. Better late than never though, so I'd like to provide you with more stuff while I have your attention, but this is as simple and straight-forward as it gets for a dimensional tiering discussion.
You are missing what you make of this, which if you did and said something correct rather than something to be corrected we wouldn't be having this thread. Or how "more than countably infinite times greater in power or size", which even that is a rough way of saying it, is so easily attainable via 1 word over space-time/dimension.Yep, me neither lol
Pepto spitting facts here
Considering the amount of pushovers one can imagine follow this thread, this comments you're making don't really help. I don't find them professional, they're not what an staff would say at least.ngl this is 10x more solid than what i remember it to be.
do i look like staff to you? I can say whatever i want as long as it supports people's opinion and isn't derailing. Also you just dissed a bunch of people. I ain't supposed to judge but dissing people isn't exactly how staff should act either.Considering the amount of pushovers one can imagine follow this thread, this comments you're making don't really help. I don't find them professional, they're not what an staff would say at least.
bruh we're arguing whether or not a pink marshmellow is 5 dimensional not debating the stock market and the politics of the world. There's 0 reason to be professional here if you're not staff and if you ain't arguing about something actually important about real life. I don't care how it portrays me or my words and if i wanna hype up the argument by saying its legit then i will be doing that.Sure you can, but there is a reason why any person wouldn't; how it sounds, the implications and normalization of it, there is a reason one would limit themselves to just say that they agree with someone, with maybe a more grounded comment next to it. It doesn't matter how you're not a staff, replace that with anyone trying to be a bit more professional, which anyone can be applied as a target of. It's a conclusion per context, it offends in your portrayal of it as it focuses on that, adds objectivity to it and adds on those who would not consider themselves as such to also be called pushovers, which I didn't do.