Kingdom Hearts Speed CRT

[Bobsican]

Okay, I've been pretty busy and what a better way to go somewhere than at least laying the basics, then discuss about alternate feats to use.

- The Stitch calc actually gives FTL results, and while Ventus didn't "properly" react, the calc aims to calc his minimal movements, rather than it being like completely dodging a MFTL+ thing, needless to say, it would be FTL at most given the actual result of the calculation.

- The Gummi Ship doesn't move (At least seemingly, it may be a game animation limitation considering how the background doesn't move in-game as it's traveled, being the first game in the series when this happened and all) as it's swallowed by Monstro, so the speed calculation of it can't scale to the main cast based on Aqua, Terra and Ventus out of being able to fight Monstro in the Mirage Arena, and it doesn't help that this wasn't how they originally scaled regardless, and it seems kinda outlierish as well.

Now the problem is finding some more solid feats to rely on over the above.

Unless better feats are found, it's best to downgrade everyone to FTL, and potentially even lower out of outlier arguments, but don't jump to conclusions, this thread is more for directly talking publically feats out of me lacking the time to tackle all of them, and I'll share the ones I found when I have the time.

 

[Cyberblader90]

ill post some stuff for speed tonight

 

[Fastestthingalive50]

The Ultimania encyclopedia comes out in english on june 29 btw

 

[Bobsican]

The Ultimania encyclopedia comes out in english on june 29 btw

That's just the English version, BTW, the japanese one released long ago.

 

[Fastestthingalive50]

I know, but don't we like using english translations?

 

[Bobsican]

Japanese statements are given more priority as that's the native language used for the series from what I recall, otherwise I could push for Hearts being abstract as Chirithy used the word "concept" to describe them in a way, but that term doesn't appear in the japanese version.
Then again, apparently there's some plans on making more consistent how we use this kind of stuff, but for now it's best to stick to the japanese version, the English version can still be used for finding something notable to look for in the other version, however.

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

 

[SamanPatou]

Seems a good idea to drop it, I also find it a bit fishy to scale Monstro in that way, but that's my opinion.

I'll take a look at the Stitch calc once web archive comes back, as it is apparently down atm.

About other feats, the only I could think of at the moment are Sora and Riku reacting and reflecting Xemnas' lasers and Sora firing at the moon in Halloween Town, it should be a real moon iirc.

 

[Bobsican]

Sora, Donald and Goofy could also react to the X-Blade beam of Xehanort with Trinity Limit, as if they didn't, they wouldn't have been able to fire it just at around the same timeframe Xehanort did.
I'll post the other feats that have been found later.

 

[Cyberblader90]

i think terra and ventus fighting unversed while traveling through the lanes is worth discussing

 

[Nehz_XZX]

i think terra and ventus fighting unversed while traveling through the lanes is worth discussing

Yeah, I do think that it's noteworthy that there are Unversed which can keep up with Keyblade Gliders in terms of speed. Vanitas did the same with Ventus' Keyblade Glider and the Lingering Will used his Keyblade Glider against Sora. I do recall GiverOfThePeace having given arguments against these instances though but I can't really be bothered to recall them in detail for the moment.

 

[TartaChocholate]

Dunno if it helps, but what about Sora and Riku blocking Xemnas' barrage of beams in the final battle of KH2?

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Dunno if it helps, but what about Sora and Riku blocking Xemnas' barrage of beams in the final battle of KH2?

Well, Calc Stacking isn't allowed, so unless there is a stated speed or enough evidence for them to be light beams or something like that, this isn't going to help much.

 

[Bobsican]

There's this from the official KHII Strategy Guide, note that it's clearly stated in-game too:

The data replica of Sora could also do it by himself to Data-Xemnas in Re Mind

Drill Dive and Noise Flux ("Same" move with different flavor) are also shown in-game to move faster than the laser of the Parasol Beauty, which is stated to be one.

Photon Charge, a Birth by Sleep Shotlock Aqua, Terra and Ventus can use is also stated to attack at the speed of light, and the user is the one moving.

Sora can dodge the lasers of the Sniper Nobodies, which bend light due to gravity, and so this doesn't go against the laser/light beam standards out of being reasonable phenomena (black holes bend light and all), rather than a "fake" one.



There's also Roxas going from Radiant Garden to the Keyblade Graveyard in seconds, and Sora reconnecting all the Worlds with the "Keyblade beam".


Speed of Light to FTL+ seems consistent, and MFTL+ may have some arguments but they seem somewhat outlierish.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

"Additionally, if a series is very close to lightspeed or exceeds it in several other calcs and scenarios (such as what is seen in DBZ), there is less of a burden of proof to show that the laser is a true laser."

Considering this quote from the Laser/Light Beam Dodging Feats page, the feat of Sora shooting a beam at the moon in Halloween Town at FTL speeds among other things would certainly lessen the burden of evidence required. Though it doesn't change that evidence is still needed in the first place. Preferably evidence that goes beyond merely stating that something is a laser.

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

 

[Cyberblader90]

we need to make a blog for the two feats we talked about

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.
I'll go ahead and develop the blog posts today.

 

[Cyberblader90]

sorry, had exams

 

[TartaChocholate]

"Additionally, if a series is very close to lightspeed or exceeds it in several other calcs and scenarios (such as what is seen in DBZ), there is less of a burden of proof to show that the laser is a true laser."

Considering this quote from the Laser/Light Beam Dodging Feats page, the feat of Sora shooting a beam at the moon in Halloween Town at FTL speeds among other things would certainly lessen the burden of evidence required. Though it doesn't change that evidence is still needed in the first place. Preferably evidence that goes beyond merely stating that something is a laser.

Hmm, I see your point. From what I could gather by looking at the Lase Feats page, what we have: they are called lasers as such, they travel in straight lines, they are made of light (though mostly due to being Sora's power rather than a "realistic" source) and avoid shortcomings such as changing speeds in the same medium. They are deflected in some cases, but the cast does have Non-Physical Interaction as well so maybe that isn't proof against it. Is more needed or that could work?

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Hmm, I see your point. From what I could gather by looking at the Lase Feats page, what we have: they are called lasers as such, they travel in straight lines, they are made of light (though mostly due to being Sora's power rather than a "realistic" source) and avoid shortcomings such as changing speeds in the same medium. They are deflected in some cases, but the cast does have Non-Physical Interaction as well so maybe that isn't proof against it. Is more needed or that could work?

I'm not an expert regarding that matter and I don't know how much the FTL feats lessen the burden of proof. Regarding the getting-deflected-cases, I'm pretty sure that light bounces off metallic surfaces and Keyblades give me a rather metallic impression even if they aren't likely to be made of any metals we have in real life. Therefore I don't think that these cases really disprove these lasers being lightspeed.

Being called lasers is part of what brings the idea of them being lightspeed into the discussion in the first place and additional evidence is needed to make a case. Traveling in straight lines and not changing speeds in the same medium is merely avoiding criteria which would disprove lightspeed but doesn't actually prove lightspeed. Supernatural powers are usually suspect when it comes to stuff like that, so the lasers being made of light because of that doesn't really help that much. The most helpful pieces of evidence are the laser statements along with the FTL feats which lessen the burden of proof.

Regarding being "composed/consisting of photons or light itself", the closest thing I can think of would be Photon Charge because of its name showing that photons and therefore to a degree light in the scientific sense has been on the mind of the game developers but that on its own is a rather tenuous piece of evidence. Though the statement of it being lightspeed helps along with the already mentioned FTL feats.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Monstropolis provides an example for a laser coming from a machine.

 

[Cyberblader90]

this was calced to rel i think

 

[Bobsican]

I also found this feat of Data-Sora being able to dodge electricity

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Seems like as if it's a really short timeframe since Sora doesn't seem to dodge until the last moment. I recall having done that sort of dodging while playing Re:Coded.

 

[Bobsican]

The Ultimania encyclopedia comes out in english on june 29 btw

Also, I just noticed this, and sadly I can't find any website to check it for free, not even the japanese version.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

There is this thread about light speed qualifications. Do we have any "of light"-phrases in regards to Kingdom Hearts?

 

[Bobsican]

This is the closest I can think of:

Photon Charge, a Shotlock in BbS, is stated to let the user move at the speed of light

Also, there's the KHII description of Sniper Nobodies:

"A sniper. A high-ranking Nobody. It is very agile as it moves around defying gravity. Use magic to stop its movements for an easier battle.

It attacks using arrows of light. Ward them off with Warp Snipe. Use this in succession for victory!"

And I've shown previously a scan of Sora being able to dodge it and the gravity bending it naturally, so it should be usable.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Aqua, Terra and Ventus having light Shotlocks and the Sniper Nobodies using arrows of light looks good to me. I think that we should definitely seek to have more than this but it is a beginning.

 

[Bobsican]

Okay, sorry, I got busy
Time to post now the blog post with certain feats calc'd

 

[Bobsican]

I may be quite late, but it's better than never, here's a blog with three relevant calcs.

@SamanPatou Can you ping some calc members to evaluate this?

 

[Bobsican]

Anyways, it seems the calcs got accepted, so now we have two MFTL+ feats and a FTL+ feat on the back.

Now, as some may bring up "but they get consistently blitzed by the Keyblade beam", well, Sora, Donald and Goofy fire their own beam as Xehanort fires his own beam, meaning that they can react to it, given that if this wasn't the case, either one firing it would just have speed blitzed the other before it could have been fired in the first place. Similarly, Mickey also reacts to the Keyblade beams the Replica Xehanorts do in Re Mind, so MFTL+ may still be consistent after all.

What does everyone else think?

 

[Cyberblader90]

can you post the xehanort scene you mentioned?

 

[Bobsican]

Here

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Regarding Sora firing a beam that reaches multiple stars, don't you need a justification for these being real stars to go along with the calculation? It's after all the space the Guardians of Light were sent to through Keyholes by the Xehanort Replicas. I don't see anything about that on the blog and I'm pretty sure that there are plenty of people who would ask about that, so it would be good to post a good justification to get that out of the way.

 

[Bobsican]

Well, we do know that a Keyhole (Which is what Sora and others entered), is a gateway in each world that leads to the heart of that world, and we do know that each world looks like an star in the sky, so...
It's also currently accepted that each World has a star of its own anyways.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Well, we do know that a Keyhole (Which is what Sora and others entered), is a gateway in each world that leads to the heart of that world, and we do know that each world looks like an star in the sky, so...
It's also currently accepted that each World has a star of its own anyways.

I think you've meant to link to Ansem's Reports 10 because of the context and you linking to Secret Ansem Report 10. Do I understand you right that the argumentation is that since Keyholes are gateways to the hearts of worlds the space in which the Guardians were sent to was not a created pocket dimension that this means they were actually in outer space with the stars being real?

 

[Bobsican]

I think you've meant to link to Ansem's Reports 10 because of the context and you linking to Secret Ansem Report 10. Do I understand you right that the argumentation is that since Keyholes are gateways to the hearts of worlds the space in which the Guardians were sent to was not a created pocket dimension that this means they were actually in outer space with the stars being real?

While the details are mostly unknown regarding the place they ended up on, from the details we do know it requires less assumptions to consider it as outer space than something else.
And yes, I meant to link to the 10th Report.