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Kingdom Hearts Miscellaneous CRT

Well, we do know that the last page he wrote on the book was the one that got changed, so that wouldn't particularly matter here, as he didn't write the aftermath of that or anything to begin with.
There's also Xehanort having the power as it was accepted on a past CRT now that I remember.
 
Bobsican said:
Well, we do know that the last page he wrote on the book was the one that got changed, so that wouldn't particularly matter here.
There's also Xehanort having the power as it was accepted on a past CRT now that I remember.
Click to expand...
I would wait to see if we could get more details about that since the events described in the Book of Prophecies were treated as something that couldn't be changed by the Master of Masters and I don't think that this would be the case if the Keyblade had a power that could do exactly that.
 
I disagree with the resistance negation layers given the context shows the higher numbers being superior than the lower ones, basically just layered hax that's superior than the weaker ones as opposed to flat out ignoring the resistance the characters have. Everything else I don't care about.
 
Theglassman12 said:
I disagree with the resistance negation layers given the context shows the higher numbers being superior than the lower ones, basically just layered hax that's superior than the weaker ones as opposed to flat out ignoring the resistance the characters have. Everything else I don't care about.
Click to expand...
I've been thinking about it for a while, and while i can see from where you're coming from, there's some misunderstandings to say the least.

First, the higher value has no contextual reason to be "X is bigger than Y, thus this X negates Y", but instead the higher value negates the effects of a lower valued card due to a superiority in the baseline.

In other words, someone with a card value of 1 would have resistance to resistance negation but someone with a card value of 2 negates that because that person has a higher layer and we can assert this off of simply mathematics (1, 1.1, 1.2 and so on are smaller than 2, which is what superior is visualized as mathematically in debates).

If your concern is how there's higher tiered "moves" based on the combination of card numbers and stuff, well, there can be a Stopga with a total of 3, or a Stop with a total of 9, needless to say, the number matters more than the "level" of the move in itself for the purposes of resistance negation stuff.
 
You do realize that the mere description of the card system itself does not remotely warrant resistance negation whatsoever. If a number 2 card bypasses a number 1 card cause it's higher in potency, and any lower number card cannot beat the higher numbers, then it's just another layer, simple as that, even the resistance negation page itself flat out says the ability being higher in potency doesn't count for res negging, which is what the card system qualifies as.
 
Stopga is technically a superior version of Stop which makes use of three Stop cards. If it still gets bypassed by Stop due to Stop having a superior number how does that get treated for our purposes?
 
TBH that in itself does heavily implies against it just being a case of a power overwhelming another and this being a proper case of resistance negation layers instead (I think he's also forgetting the whole deal of a number adding the respective amount of "layers" to avoid being suppressed by another card, or set of them, which is literally power null but to resistance, aka resistange neg), especially when Glassman's argument for them just being based on potency is all based on an implication from the mere act of numbers being used, which isn't really solid by itself in relation to that, in fact we do already measure resistance negation layers on the site with a count of layers (aka, numbers) as said before, so just because "they're countable!" doesn't hold up against it.
 
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Thank you for helping out, Theglassman12 and Nehz_XZC.

So what are the conclusions here so far?
 
Antvasima said:
Thank you for helping out, Theglassman12 and Nehz_XZC.

So what are the conclusions here so far?
Click to expand...
We are currently discussing the matter of whether or not the numbers from CoM's card system constitute Resistance Negation layers or layered hax. I don't think that there is an issue with anything else at the moment.
 
Okay. Thank you for the explanation.
 
Nehz_XZX said:
We are currently discussing the matter of whether or not the numbers from CoM's card system constitute Resistance Negation layers or layered hax. I don't think that there is an issue with anything else at the moment.
Click to expand...
@CrimsonStarFallen @SamanPatou

Would you be willing to help out here please?
 
@Nehz_XZX going off the mechanics of the game, that's just a higher layer of hax, not really res negging when it's just a bigger number than the other.

@Bobsican did you read anything I said? It being countable isn't the point, the fact the cards function by having the bigger number cancel out the smaller number every time, and nothing about the smaller numbers can do anything about it, does not prove res negging at all. The page itself flat out says that does not count for resistance negation, that's just a higher layer of hax.
 
Theglassman12 said:
@Nehz_XZX going off the mechanics of the game, that's just a higher layer of hax, not really res negging when it's just a bigger number than the other.
Click to expand...
So, the Stop spell would in that case have a higher level of hax in spite of being an inferior version of Stopga? Do I understand this right in the sense that the layer of hax would be independent of the potency of the actual Time Stop effect since Stopga is superior in that regard but still loses to Stop in that scenario?
 
going off the card game, if there exists a number 9 stop and a number 3 stopga, then the former would just be superior in higher potency. That's how the rules of the card game works if the video is anything to go off of, so yeah the layer of hax would be independent of the potency of the actual time stop.
 
Thank you both for helping out.
 
So what are the conclusions here so far?
 
Theglassman12 said:
going off the card game, if there exists a number 9 stop and a number 3 stopga, then the former would just be superior in higher potency. That's how the rules of the card game works if the video is anything to go off of, so yeah the layer of hax would be independent of the potency of the actual time stop.
Click to expand...
Uh... that's not how the rules of the card system work based on how we've seen it function and its given rules. In one of the examples given, we can see that if an enemy card has an higher value than yours, it'll negate that action and it won't go through, we even see this with basic fodder like Shadows being capable of stopping a Lv1 Attack Card by simply rising a Lv2 card.

This is entirely unrelated with higher potency attack, but simply the fact that the Shadow has an higher layer of negation (unless now you want to argue that Shadows should scale to Sora when they're regarded as the weakest Heartless as stated in the Days novel). You have to remember that CoM's card system works under the basic rule of "lower valued card vs higher valued card = higher valued card always negating the ability of the card with the lesser value".

What makes this point clear however, is the fact that 0 acts as a complete negation and works regardless of value. Asserting it's "higher potency" wouldn't make sense under this observation as that would assert a value of 0 > 27, which isn't the case.
 
I'm in agreement with the OP.

The Card numbers aren't simply representative of a more "potent attack" given how the 0 card works, as Bob just explained.
 
That’s still not resistance negation if the shadow had to use a level 2 to stop a level 1. You do realize that still falls under the type of hax that DOESN’T count as res negging as it’s just a stronger version of the card right?

if 0 is the only one that negates then that’s the only form of resistance negation, there’s no 20+ resistance negation here, just one resistance negation if 0 just ignores any non zero card.
 
Theglassman12 said:
That’s still not resistance negation if the shadow had to use a level 2 to stop a level 1. You do realize that still falls under the type of hax that DOESN’T count as res negging as it’s just a stronger version of the card right?

if 0 is the only one that negates then that’s the only form of resistance negation, there’s no 20+ resistance negation here, just one resistance negation if 0 just ignores any non zero card.
Click to expand...
The Shadow card isn't of the same card type as the Keyblade card, they're two different cards that have two different purposes, and the only thing that determines which functions is the value of the cards themselves. This isn't "higher potency" in any form, and in the case of the Shadow, this'd be implying that a basic attack from a Shadow is > Sora.

It's irrelevant if you possess a different card or the same card, if you have a Lv2 card and it's used against a Number 1 card, then it'll effect/work on the opponent with the Lv1 card even if they are normally resistant.

Bringing up "stronger potency" is just not understanding the card system, especially when more assumptions are required for that claim to begin with, as may I remind you the basis of your whole argument is based on a mere implication that's not solid on its own and is far outweighted by the other semantics at play at this point.
 
Ok and? You do realize that you're arguing the card mechanics is canonical in the story, meaning that the shadows beating out sora's attacks due to the card system is canonical, so either its not canonical and Sora can still oneshot them no matter what cards they have, or the card system is canonical.

So just having higher potency because the bigger number cancels out the smaller one, that's literally what your video explains for the card system. How exactly is this resistance negation because you're using a stronger card to stop a weaker card.

Just not understanding the card system then? Explain this video that you're using to argue resistance negation where it's literally saying the bigger number cards nullifies the smaller ones. Because either he's wrong or you're not doing a good job explaining the card system at all.
 
The card system being canonical is already accepted and the characters from Chain of Memories have Power Nullification because of that.

"Power Nullification (Can break cards with the card break system by using cards with equal or higher values (This condition doesn't apply with the Luxord card), which includes attacks and Resistances, can also nullify an attack via the Parasite Cage card)"

This is what Sora has in his Chain of Memories tab.
 
Nehz_XZX said:
The card system being canonical is already accepted and the characters from Chain of Memories have Power Nullification because of that.

"Power Nullification (Can break cards with the card break system by using cards with equal or higher values (This condition doesn't apply with the Luxord card), which includes attacks and Resistances, can also nullify an attack via the Parasite Cage card)"

This is what Sora has in his Chain of Memories tab.
Click to expand...
Okay. So what should we do here exactly then?
 
Antvasima said:
Okay. So what should we do here exactly then?
Click to expand...
The Power Nullification justification already mentions values and even Resistances though it doesn't mention the upper limit the values can reach and nothing about what cards with a value of 0 are capable of, so we might want to discuss that. There is also the issue of hax layers that Theglassman12 brought up.
 
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Okay. Noted. Thank you for the reply.
 
What Nehz has brought up shows that currently the Resistance Negation stuff for cards is already accepted and all, but the layers discussed on the OP are still currently at debate here.

Anyways...
Theglassman12 said:
Ok and? You do realize that you're arguing the card mechanics is canonical in the story, meaning that the shadows beating out sora's attacks due to the card system is canonical, so either its not canonical and Sora can still oneshot them no matter what cards they have, or the card system is canonical.
Click to expand...
The card system is entirely unrelated with an opponent's power and we've seen many times that superiority or comparability still apply even with the card system at play. All the card system does canonically is change how people fight and that's it. Saying that a Shadow is able to fight with Sora canon-wise because of the card system requires sustainable evidence and not assumptions that stem from nothing.

Even as seen in the OP, Axel was able to one-shot Vexen, and Lexaeus was able to initially overpower Riku despite your logic implying that everyone who's part of the card system are on equal footing and it's their wit that allows another opponent to combat another. At the very least the card system doesn't cover a card wielder's power, and it solely pertains abilities and how fighters interact on the battlefield.

So just having higher potency because the bigger number cancels out the smaller one, that's literally what your video explains for the card system. How exactly is this resistance negation because you're using a stronger card to stop a weaker card.

Just not understanding the card system then? Explain this video that you're using to argue resistance negation where it's literally saying the bigger number cards nullifies the smaller ones. Because either he's wrong or you're not doing a good job explaining the card system at all.
Click to expand...
May I ask where is "higher potency" coming from in the video to begin with? That's something you derived from your personal observation, what actually is shown is that a Lv2 card overpowers a Lv1 card (two completely unrelated cards at that).
The "numbers" on the card have nothing to do with the power, but merely value (We can prove this by the fact you can "break" attack cards with a magic cards, break friend cards {Which is merely just bringing a friend of Sora into the battlefield} with attack cards, or even break item cards {Which is just Sora using an item in battle} with a friend card)

It's Resistance Negation because higher valued cards work on lower valued cards regardless of what their effects are. Lethal Frame, for example, is able to negate the resistance to time stop, and it stacks up from there (BTW, the card isn't explicitly a "higher potency" time stop spell, it's considered that because of its effects; This isn't like FF where spells progress linearly)

This isn't the only card like this and this applies to cards with higher values in general. The Keyblade card has the normal effects of the Keyblade, alongside the other cards having light and darkness concepts tied to them (which comes with the normal haxes they have in-universe) yet things normally resistant to these things are still prone to being effected if their card is of a lower value

In other words, there's nothing to suggest that the higher value and lower value correlates to power or potency (if anything, there's stuff that goes against that as mentioned above) but merely abilities and how one interacts on the battlefield. Additionally, cards negate the resistances that opponents normally have if the user has an higher valued card

If this keeps going on I think it'd be worthwhile to ask other staff on input at this point, as I don't think my stance, or Glassman's stance is going to change anytime soon.
 
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If a lower value gets completely negated by a higher value card, then the higher value card has stronger abilities, simple as that. That's literally what the card system says, and it's still not res negging cause you're using a higher numbered number that stops any lower value, that's just a layered hax. The whole point of resistance negation is the fact that you ignore their resistance regardless what their immunity is, even if you use a weaker spell and it works on them, that's resistance negation, if a weaker card that sora uses becomes useless because of a higher value card, and vice versa, that's not resistance negation, that's only layered hax, so for once give me something that has the cards ignore any and all resistance regardless if they have a higher number or not.
 
I admit I lost track of the debate because of the sheer amount of messages.

Can someone provide a summary of the two opposing sides' arguments?
 
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