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King Thanos

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handle =/= not being able to use it, it means he doesn't have full control over it, just like all other Phoenix force users who are taken over by the entity's power

also, we rate the Phoenix Five at 2-A, Possibly Low 1-C when they logically would not be experts in using it too
 
Overlord775 said:
handle =/= not being able to use it, it means he doesn't have full control over it, just like all other Phoenix force users who are taken over by the entity's power

also, we rate the Phoenix Five at 2-A, Possibly Low 1-C when they logically would not be experts in using it too
Click to expand...
The Phoenix Five are gonna lose Tier 1, so... Also just being a Phoenix host doesn't make someone '2-A, possibly Low 1-C.'
 
Ok, been thinking on this. Especially because, I did another character from this particular Universe, so I have to be as critical with this as I was with that, for the exact same reasons. That being said, there's a number of complications but we'll get into those and they're not as extensive as I first thought, now that I've reviewed it all.

1. My first major thing with this, is that King Thanos is just Thanos but more powerful. However, I'm reminded that Superman Prime exists. This is literally the same thing: a future version of a pre-established character that is more powerful. That said, King Thanos has more appearences, more feats and, Hell, more character. So, if we allow Superman Prime on the site, whose basically just made an appearence for a few pages in every comic he's shown up in (4 to be exact) vs. King Thanos whose shown up in 5 comics, all of which were devoted to him. I'm just saying, that if we can justify Superman Prime's existence, then we can justify King Thanos.

2. Scaling. This is the big one. Because, without this there will be no point and this is the most complex issue with the character. See, a lot of King Thanos' feats would have to be taken with a grain salt due to being an alternate Universe. This is very similiar to Cosmic Ghost Rider, when he took an entire army of heroes. But, we can't use that for scaling because those heroes are vastly different than the ones we know. They could have been weaker, they could have been stronger. We don't know. But, there is another wrinkle here. King Thanos' timeline, is the 616 Universe's just far ahead. So, the characters' histories are intact, just like I pointed out in my CGR Profile overhaul. More importantly, this means that the future version of characters King Thanos fought (King Thor and Maestro) should also be intact. Cyttorak, the Celestials, they shold have all the same feats. Though there are some problems. Let's got through them:

Cyttorak: We know he's dead. We know that he was killed. We don't know how. We can't use him, because the specifics of how he was overcome are unknown.

The Celestials: They were defeated via Black Bolt's death scream. That should be an outlier for Black Bolt, but we don't know if Thanos did anything to amp his powers. It happened, but it's too vague. Plus, Thanos didn't do it himself.

God Quarry Thanos: Seems like the obvious one but there's a problem. King Thanos wanted to die. He brought his younger self to the future to kill him. That was the point of the entire arc. So, we have to take the amount of effort he put into the fight as suspect. Did he allow Thanos to just beat on him until he was at Death's door? Did just put up enough of fight to try and make it convinicing? It was said that Thanos only grew stronger over time, so how would even a younger, God Quarry Empowered Thanos even do that much damage? The entire point of Thanos Wins was that Thanos continued to grow more powerful even as everyone else (mostly) was growing weaker. There's too many what-if's and contradictions here, if you ask me.

Galactus: Galactu's power levels are subject to change based on how much he has fed. This makes it hard to use him as a benchmark unless we're given an actual indication of how much he's fed. Otherwise, we're making assumptions.

Maestro: LOL, no. It's debatable if Maestro could take normal Thanos, let alone a more powerful older version.

King Thor: Now, this is one that I could see. We know how powerful Base Old King Thor is and the comic is explicit that OKT fought King Thanos. If we except that this is the OKT we've seen throughout multiple comics, then this is the straightest, least contradictory feat to use for scaling, IMHO.

Based on all of that, I believe that King Thanos should be given a 2-C rating for defeating and killing Old King Thor. Nothing else. In fact it should be something like:

Low Multiverse level (Defeated and killed Old King Thor), Higher with Twilight Sword.

So those are my thoughts. I've done this to streamline the scaling as much as possible while justifying King Thanos' addition to our wiki. This will keep things nice and simple with little room for argument in the future.
 
@Lord

why wouldn't Thane be comparable to Pheonix Force Jane since he holds all the Phoenix Force like her [not talking of the white Phoenix form btw] ?

@C2

Wouldn't King Thanos scale to God Quarry Thanos then ?
 
Overlord775 said:
@C2

Wouldn't King Thanos scale to God Quarry Thanos then ?
Click to expand...
I don't think so. That would say that God Quarry Thanos is as strong as King Thanos. Or around his level. But that doesn't make much sense. We know that God Quarry Thanos is just a younger King Thanos. The narration about King Thanos was that he just kept getting stronger as time passed. So, if God Quarry Thanos is younger King Thanos, who can go back in time and make it so that he will never become King Thanos, how can he even stand against this older, more experienced, more powerful future version of himself?

There's just an inherent contradiction between the information and context of the story that is given. This is a big part as to why Ant was so against King Thanos having a profile.
 
you said it yourself, King Thanos wanted to die, so that's exaplains why God Quarry Thanos could keep up at all
 
I agree with C2. King Thanos lied about the reason he brought Thanos to the future which was initially to kill Silver Surfer. SS who had been amped and training for millions of years. This was not the reason however it was ultimately to kill King Thanos so he could "marry" Death. Instead Thanos erases that possible future by vowing to never become King Thanos and King Thanos realises that Death is dressed for a funeral not their wedding.

So King Thanos was letting Young Thanos beat him. When Young Thanos realises this he left him alive and used the time stone to leave.
 
I also think that C2 makes sense. Thank you for helping out. Feel free to improve on the King Thanos profile.
 
I am going by memory, and am never lying when I mention it. I do not generally remember the exact issue numbers though, and am constantly distracted by several dozen other tasks that I have to juggle at the same time, so I do not remotely have the time to spend hours digging them up. As a consequence, I much prefer to ask knowledgeable members to handle these types of discussions in my stead, as they greatly stress me out after a while, due to mental overexertion.

However, it isn't all that hard for you to check up the chronological Dormammu appearances during the last 15 years since Bendis and other modern writers started handling him, or the various times when Juggernaut fought Cyttorak starting back after Juggernaut was beaten by Onslaught the second time, and had the Cyttorak gem ripped out of his body.
 
Just a few examples of Dormammu being treated as a joke in recent years:

Having trouble with the Avengers when possessing The Hood.

Being damaged by Cyclops and beaten by Magik.

Being beaten by the Absorbing Man and Frankenstein's Monster.

Being sealed in the Dark Dimension by Brother Voodoo.

Doing much worse against a moderately-fed Galactus than Gladiator did after Galactus absorbed a lot more energy in the same storyline.

And he also fought Mephisto, Nightmare, and (I think) SHuman-Gorath in a prolonged battle in a flashback for the Avengers storyline wherein Mephisto took over Las Vegas, so the depowerment scales to them and other mystic entities as well.
 
That is probably fine.
 
Overlord775 said:
@Lord

why wouldn't Thane be comparable to Pheonix Force Jane since he holds all the Phoenix Force like her [not talking of the white Phoenix form btw] ?
Click to expand...
Jean is stated by the Phoenix Force itself to be its most powerful host, and there's quite a few statements that show she's very special compared to the other hosts. Thane absolutely does not scale to her.
 
I've done a revised version of King Thanos' profile.

See here.

I removed the examples because they were just copied from Thanos' profile. Seemed a little redundant to me.
 
@C2

That seems fine. Just remember to keep the tabbers at the top of the current page.
 
@Ant

Usually possessing someone doesn't allow you to use your full powers

the two following exemples are literally textbook we use for PIS

Voodoo is powered or closelly related to Mistress Death iirc

Moderatelly Fed Galactus should be 2-A IMO

and the last there's 2-As in the fight

@C2

Respond to me pls
 
The issue is that Dormammu has virtually '''always''' been portrayed as a pushover 15 years in a row. It is illogical rationalisation to claim that it is just an issue of outliers for such a massive ongoing losing streak. The writers genuinely do not consider the mystical entities as very impressive anymore nowadays.
 
Most cosmic characters are more hype than feats in the first place, which is why they usually get beat on for the worf effect. I'm decently sure the Living Tribunal has more low showings than actual showings as an example.
 
Well, again this is an almost 15 year long consistent embarrassing losing streak. That cannot be rationalised as outliers. It is a deliberate decision by Marvel Comics editorial department that the mystical entities should not be nearly as impressive anymore.
 
Ok, changes are done. I've also saved the previous version to a document if, for some reason people want it back.

I also think that the King Thanos profile should be locked. He's a bit of a hot topic and we don't want people to just be changings things around because they feel he should have a higher rating.
 
@C2

Why won't you respond to me ? <-<

"you said it yourself, King Thanos wanted to die, so that's exaplains why God Quarry Thanos could keep up at all "
 
@C2

Thank you for helping out. I will lock the page.

Should we close this thread?
 
@Ant

No problem. Happy to help.

@Overlord

Here's thing with King Thanos. Based off the logic of the comic, he should be heads and shoulders above his younger self. He's been growing stronger for millions of years at this point. He's far more experienced to boot. Plus, we know that he's throwing the fight for all intensive purposes. So, we've got a guy who wants to die being beaten to death by someone that he should be able to stomp utterly into the ground.

Hence, there's inherent contradiction there. So much more powerful than his younger self but can still be harmed by him? It'd be like Thor asking Captain America to kill him with only his fists. It just doesn't really add up. Or, I can't trust the information the comic is giving to me.

On top of this, I have an issue with the God Quarry. When Thanos went there, it was to restore himself. He literally defines it as regaining his lost power. So, I have to take him taking on a Phoenix Force Host, with a critical eye because that's another contradiction. Thane apparantly had the entire Phoenix Force to boot. Not a portion like the Phoenix Five. Yet, Thanos, who by his own words, should be back to normal levels of power, could take him on. It's never remarked that Thanos is stronger than ever or anything of the like.

Starting to see the issues here? The comic and it's characters are saying one thing but then do something that doesn't line up with previous statements or context. There's too much inconsistency to just ignore. That's why I disregarded it, and focused on his defeat of Old King Thor because it's a straight forward example that doesn't contradict itself.

2-A King Thanos would have been nice but there's too much going on with the plot and the scaling for a surefire thing. It's just an example of the inconsistent nature of comics. Why can normal Thanos take on a full power Phoenix Force host? Plot. Why can he nearly beat his older, more powerful self to death? Plot. It's just one of those sad, sad instantces as far as I'm concerned.
 
Then again don't you think Thanos would have multiple ways to manipulate his durability? I mean forcefields and shields for example? He didn't use any of the weapons or abilities he had gained either.
 
I think that C2 makes good sense. Thanks again for helping out.

So are the rest of you also fine with if I close this?
 
Feel free to close this. This was for creating the profile anyway, not for upgrade something.
 
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