King Crimson and Interaction with Time Skip

[Chariot190]

Time Erasure: King Crimson's signature ability, which allows it to "erase" a period up to ten seconds in length. During this period, Diavolo can see all actions (human or otherwise) that would have taken place from its activation to the end superimposed onto the world around him. Whilst everyone is unable to change their fate, Diavolo can freely move around as he pleases, often putting himself in a better position based on the aforementioned actions (though, it's important to note that Diavolo not only never interacts with others but is also exempt from attacks as well).


From his profile.

That part is outright not true (I think), I can think of three examples, first the fortune teller, he torn off his hand and swapped his hand with the torn off hand within time skip, secondly he activated time skip, punched a hole in an elevator, cut off trish's hand and kidnapped within erased time and then there's this, don't think I need to explain, and I won't because spoilers, click with that in mind.

Plus there's instances like him breaking Misa's gun in the erased time, moving his belongings from a room, cutting a flower (anime only), throwing a civilian to block bullets (in erased time), moving Spice Girl's limbs to move Mista's body while in erased time, etc.

Plus it isn't actually said anywhere he can't interact with others within his world.

He has shown from as early as his debut up to the end of the manga that he can interact with others within erased time. He doesn't always do it but litterally like half of the time he does.


Does anyone got an answer for this? Am i missing something?

 

[Antvasima]

You can ask a few of the members listed in the JoJo's Bizarre Adventure verse page to comment here via their message walls if you wish.

 

[Chariot190]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

Have you done what I recommended?

 

[PlotInducedStupidity]

Bump.

 

[Chariot190]

I was about to bump this as well, I added a few other instances that I can think of.

 

[PlotInducedStupidity]

It's too late at night for me to give a full argument, but just so the thread has something of a counter-argument to work off of, I'll mention the fact that Diavolo, at least as far as I remember, only prepares his punch against GER in erased time, with the effect of time erase ending being shown in the anime just before RTZ starts taking effect. This is further reinforced by Diavolo declaring that he saw himself being just a moment faster in Epitaph, implying Diavolo had to end his time erase to attack GER.

I would argue that Diavolo not attacking in erased time against GER shows an inability to do so, as if he could attack GER he would have done so as Diavolo had shown that he was at least somewhat afraid of GER.

Again kind of rudimentary argument for now. I can expand more later.

 

[Chariot190]

In the manga the time erase doesnt end, in fact Diavolo explicitly states that time was still erased in the manga when RTZ happened. Meaning he goes to throw the punch to connect with Giorno while time was still erased. Diavolo in fact tries to throw the punch again after RTZ starts reversing the erased time, while time is still erased trying to kill Giorno.

And Epitaph never shows him punching Giorno, it shows King Crimson with his fist straight through his chest, assuming Epitaph is showing what happens when time resumes, that would mean the moment time resumed that King Crimson already landed the lethal blow.

And if we use the anime, there's an anime only scene of him killing a flower.

 

[PlotInducedStupidity]

I agree that he preps the punch while time is erased, he does something similar against Polnareff, but, again using Polnareff as an example, his actual blow is intended to land when time begins again.

The important part about this point is the specific mention of being "faster". Even without re-watching I am completely certain this is mentioned in the anime, I can read the manga tomorrow though. The fact that "faster" is used implies that Diavolo saw a contest of speed between King Crimson and GER with King Crimson being slightly faster, just enough to beat GER in its attack. This also kind of acts as proof aginst infinite GER rather than infinite via RTZ, but that is irrelevant here.

I can only respond more tomorrow.

 

[Eficiente]

This is occasionally brought. There is no real evidence of Diavolo doing anything specific within erased time as opposed to using the power to confuse everyone and while using his Stand's speed to get away with what's he's going, for the most part anyway. We know for a fact that he can move people and objects within erased time, but this is not the case for attacking others.

Any instance in which it looks like that's not the case is pretty self-explanatory, the arguments always end in "he was going to stop using the erase time right before his attack were to touch his opponent", which is the most practical way to use his power.

 

[Chariot190]

Plot, You are explicitly ignoring the fact that he not only throws the punch in erased time but he does it agai a moment later, trying to kill Giorno in the middle of erased time before he moves out of range.

I can read what it says, he says that he was a moment faster because he managed to punch him, it's mentioned in both with slightly different wording, issue with that is that when he checks Epitaph, it doesnt show him throwing the punch, it shows him already having landed the punch, killing Giorno, faster doesnt neccasarily mean he beat him in a cross counter, no, infact what is explcitly shown contradicts that, it shows him having already landed the punch within Epitaph, Diavolo never sees himself throwing the punch.

It'd only act as a counter to infinite GER (which it wouldnt even if that was the case) if what you're saying actually transpired but Diavolo didnt beat GER in a contest of speed (in fact Diavolo cant even perceive Ger's movements, which he himsef admits, outside of forecasted trails, which arent even in real time, only showing the paths they take) nor did the punch land after erased time, Epitaph only ever showed him with the punch already being landed. And fyi, Epitaph's vision actually shows the punch connecting withi erased time.

Him not doing it against Polnareff means nothing, when he's done it numerous other times and he didnt even need to, plus he proceeds to do some time erase interactions in the following chapters.

If you want to talk inconsistency, the times that he interacts far outweight the times that he doesnt. Plus add the fact that he's never stated to be unable to anywhere at all, there's literally no reason to assume otherwise, in fact saying he cant is being ignorant to he source material.

 

[Chariot190]

This is occasionally brought. There is no real evidence of Diavolo doing anything specific within erased time as opposed to using the power to confuse everyone and while using his Stand's speed to get away with what's he's going, for the most part anyway. We know for a fact that he can move people and objects within erased time, but this is not the case for attacking others.
Any instance in which it looks like that's not the case is pretty self-explanatory, the arguments always end in "he was going to stop using the erase time right before his attack were to touch his opponent", which is the most practical way to use his power.

It is quite literally impossible for him to have done what he did to Trish and Narancia and not get noticed, same with Mista's gun. In fact he was doing said things in time erase so he wouldnt get noticed.

And the last bit is once again impossible in these situations because he didnt land the blow immediatly after time erase, in the example of trish, he not only cut off her hand but he then picked her up and escaped out of the elevator all while time was still deleted. And narancia is kinda self explanatory.

The fact that it's never stated anywhere that he cant do it when he has done it means that assuming otherwise is outright wrong.

 

[Chariot190]

If one can find a statement saying that he cant do so I'll conceede, but the fact that I cant find any statement and the fact he's contradicted the nonexistent statement suggests otherwise although if it exists, ill accept that it happens because it just works and nothing more.

 

[PlotInducedStupidity]

The JoJo Fandom page cites JoJoveller as its source on King Crimson being unable to attack in time erase. I wouldn't know where to find a scan of this though.

 

[Chariot190]

The JoJo Fandom page cites JoJoveller as its source on King Crimson being unable to attack in time erase. I wouldn't know where to find a scan of this though.

"It was shocking how, in the movie Total Recall, there was a guy with an extra face on his belly, with its own personality... For Diavolo, I thought he would look punk if his hair had a leopard pattern."

—Hirohiko Araki, JOJOVELLER Stand Guide page 190

Pretty sure that's all that is said on King Crimson in JoJoveller.

 

[PlotInducedStupidity]

JOJOVELLER: STANDS, p.192.

Copied directly from the King Crimson page as supposedly where this comes from.

 

[Chariot190]

Yes I know, I checked, and the only translations that I can find, even when looking at other places like tumblr blogs or even reddit are the stand comments.

 

[PlotInducedStupidity]

I suppose a direct statement is out then.

As I said before I'll continue arguing tomorrow, but you should probably ask other knowledgeable members in the mean time.

 

[Chariot190]

Why argue? What's there to even debate over? Either he can attack in erased time due to the multiple times that he has shown the capability of doing so or we're gonna ignore the multiple times that he does exactly that, it aint complicated.

There really aint any middle ground for this, unless we use the other medius outside the manga, but that has a huge amount of issues in and of itself.

 

[PlotInducedStupidity]

The argument is really which inconsistency is most consistent. Diavolo have a lot of examples of doing things in time erase, but also a lot of examples doing nothing when it would have been advantageous to do so. Both are inconsistent, it really comes down to which inconsistency is generally preferred.

 

[Chariot190]

If it's a numbers game then he interacts far more then he doesnt, with only two examples existing for the latter (ignoring time skips where he isnt trying to harm an opponent, like dodging).

I wouldnt say it's inconsistent, I'd say it's character induced stupidity or, ironically, PIS at times where he doesnt when it'd be smart to do so not that it's inconsistent because without that supposed quote, neither are even contradicting anything thus aint an inconsistency and the only thing in debate is if and when or how often Diavolo would actually do so in debates .

 

[PlotInducedStupidity]

Even more ironically, I've never liked attributing it to CIS or PIS though especially considering that stupidity doesn't even begin to describe how stupid or out of character it is for Diavolo to not attack in erased time at some points.

I will need to ignore an reply to this until tomorrow though, it is really late for me.

 

[Eficiente]

>"he not only throws the punch in erased time but he does it again a moment later, trying to kill Giorno in the middle of erased time before he moves out of range."

Throwing punches means nothing as he could stop erasing time at any moment. The intention you say he's having is a headcanon.

>"he says that he was a moment faster because he managed to punch him, it's mentioned in both with slightly different wording, issue with that is that when he checks Epitaph, it doesnt show him throwing the punch, it shows him already having landed the punch, killing Giorno, faster doesnt neccasarily mean he beat him in a cross counter, no, infact what is explcitly shown contradicts that, it shows him having already landed the punch within Epitaph, Diavolo never sees himself throwing the punch."

He doesn't see a still image so headcanon. +GER was previously blitzing him, and now he was a moment faster.

>"Epitaph's vision actually shows the punch connecting within erased time."

Again, headcanon.

>"Him not doing it against Polnareff means nothing, when he's done it numerous other times and he didnt even need to, plus he proceeds to do some time erase interactions in the following chapters."

He never outright attacks others, but he can do other stuff.

>"If you want to talk inconsistency, the times that he interacts far outweight the times that he doesnt. Plus add the fact that he's never stated to be unable to anywhere at all, there's literally no reason to assume otherwise, in fact saying he cant is being ignorant to he source material."

This is not a black and white thing, Diavolo can interact with things within erased time. He just can't kill, he would also be pretty dumb if he were able to do this and only aimed to do so in the last battle so that last part is out of place.

>"It is quite literally impossible for him to have done what he did to Trish and Narancia and not get noticed, same with Mista's gun. In fact he was doing said things in time erase so he wouldnt get noticed."

• Trish: The only thing outside his time erase would be cutting her hand, so no.
• Narancia: The only thing outside his time erase would be breaking the metal bars (if they weren't like that before?) and impaling the already moved Narancia into them. Because you know, he can move things and people within erased time.

>"in the example of trish, he not only cut off her hand but he then picked her up and escaped out of the elevator all while time was still deleted."

Cut her hand in real time, do the rest in erased time. Done.

>"The fact that it's never stated anywhere that he cant do it when he has done it means that assuming otherwise is outright wrong."

We have the power of context, the reason he can't do this is the same reason others can't do anything to him within erased time. There needs to be time for things to matter, for the most part nonetheless, Diavolo can move, and see things, and move other things. This much "makes sense". Also he should always be doing this, not "that one time" in which it's not even confirmed that he did so.

 

[Chariot190]

I dont like it either, but araki has gone on record saying sometimes he makes villains to powerful and writes himself into a corner so he has to take liberties here and there.

The fact it isnt stated he cant do it and the fact that he has done it mean it aint condradicting the fact he cant interact, as that quote seemingly doesnt exist, so no power inconsistency exists.

Plus while Diavolo not doing it like 2 times at best doesnt mean it's him being stupid, with Polnareff he didnt need to, he managed to kill him with little to no issue plus Pol already seen him, not much reason to stay low and finish it in erased time. And in times where he couldnt let himself be seen or he didnt want to be seen, he did exactly that, harming Trish and killing Narancia within erased time and then escaping or hiding before time resumed.

 

[Chariot190]

>Throwing punches means nothing as he could stop erasing time at any moment. The intention you say he's having is a headcanon.

You arent wrong on the former, he could do so, youre right, the intention though being headcanon? How is it head canon given that we see the fact that he literally tries to do exactly that when getting RTZ'd.

>He doesn't see a still image so headcanon. +GER was previously blitzing him, and now he was a moment faster.

Literally sees it as a still image in that scene so you dont even have a point here. Yeah he was, doesnt mean it happened in real time though.

No? In the anime it very clearly shows the landscape to still be covered in stars and space, like erased time. You really need to stop with your constant headcanon excuse, it's annoying, and isnt even a proper rebuttal, especially when you are just as guilty with headcanon-esque claims.

>He never outright attacks others, but he can do other stuff.

I'd call him ripping off hands at least once, possibly twice, in erased time is an attack.

>This is not a black and white thing, Diavolo can interact with things within erased time. He just can't kill, he would also be pretty dumb if he were able to do this and only aimed to do so in the last battle so that last part is out of place.

It kinda is, he either can or cant, but he has, so he can. Yes he can interact with things so the profile is already wrong based on that. He just cant kill? Maybe, but he can rip your hands off I guess. What do you mean only in the last battle? It's the very first thing we see him do, the fact he does it again in the last battle with narancia and the gun plus the bars, etc is support, not a contradiction.

>Narancia: The only thing outside his time erase would be breaking the metal bars (if they weren't like that before?) and impaling the already moved Narancia into them. Because you know, he can move things and people within erased time.

The bars weren't broken prior, pretty sure we get some wide shots of the area and the bars werent broken prior, I'll check, which he wouldnt of been able to do otherwise he'd be spotted hence why he was doing all those things within erased time, are you really trying to imply him picking up Narancia and impaling him on like 7 bars isnt an attack? Also he snapped Mista's gun within erased time as well. Also once again, time erased was only used once, in that entire scene, Trish hands Mista some bullets, time skips and that's it, it only skips once so there wasnt now small period there, plus he not only impaled Narancia but he made it so the bars were moved back in place to prevent pulling him off easily so he didnt impale immediatly after time erase ended (plus he wouldnt of had time to hide again).

>Cut her hand in real time, do the rest in erased time. Done.

Except he didnt, it all happened in the span of one time erase, we know this because we see how many time erases happen due to Giorno's perspective. The elevator scene wasnt two skips but one, for one who uses headcanon as a strawman so much you tend to do it yourself. He puncged a hole in the elevator, cut off trish's hand, picked her up, escaped all within one time skip.

>We have the power of context, the reason he can't do this is the same reason others can't do anything to him within erased time.

Yes we do have context, and you're ignoring and cherry picking a lot of it. That's merely your preconceived notion which is contradicted, in that case he wouldnt even be able to move things in erased time but we know for a fact, which you even agree on, that he can. Things cant hit him but he most definitely can hit other things, seeing as he had.

>There needs to be time for things to matter, for the most part nonetheless, Diavolo can move, and see things, and move other things. This much "makes sense". Also he should always be doing this, not "that one time" in which it's not even confirmed that he did so.

And there is time, he himself has time so it stands to reason that he can do said things because he has shown the ability to do so. Otherwise in the same vain, how is he even capable of moving things? What's the difference between moving something and punching something? We know he can violently overpower and move someone in erased time like a doll (Spicegirl), impale Narancia, break objects like guns and metal bars, throw bodies, heavily implied to do a hand cut+swap within erased time against the fortune teller, etc

And your reasoning of he did some of it in real time doesnt hold up because we see when the time skip starts and when it ends in the instances that matter, there was no middle point of real time he did said thing, that is, quite ironically, headcano and outright disproven by the character's pov (and with the anime, the weird glitchy effect).

 

[Eficiente]

Do you really need to use that format? What "I" argue is that he can do stuff in erased time but not everything, like attacking others. That should be easy to reply to, you may have noticed that everything was based on that.

 

[Chariot190]

What format?

The > format? Then yes, because it tells you and others exactly what im replying toward plus I can actually read the post while im typing instead of having to remember like five paragraphs of text while typing.

I know what youre saying, the issue is that he most certainly does have at least two, possibly three instances of attacking a living being in erased time and even more examples of breaking things within erased time, he cut off Trish's hand (which is confirmed to of happened within erased time, he only time erased once in that scene, (plus Bruno probably would of noticed the dude and big stand cut off trishs hand, which he was holding onto), the fortune teller scene which is heavily implied to be the same thing as the former, and impaling Narancia on bars (plus breaking said bars and mistas gun later on too within erased time).

The fact all those happen and the quote that he cant attack in erased time isnt cited, sourced and the only thing I found was a total recall piece of info, there's nothing saying he cant other then some preconcieved notion that he cant that's outright contradicted on panel.

 

[Eficiente]

Can you show the pannels that make you think that on the Trish thing? Let's start with that.

 

[Chariot190]

Are you really asking me why I think that your, to be completely honest, ridiculous claim of Diavolo skipping time (which had him punching a hole in the elevator roof fyi), resuming normal time and cutting off trash's hand then deleting time again is faulty?

Hell, I'll do you one better. We see the insides of the elevator in all relevant panels and in not one is Diavolo seen or shown plus due to the elevators size he would of had to of been seen to do it in the first place plus Bruno is looking directly at where Diavolo would of came in from (confirming that he punched the hole in it while in erased time, otherwise Bruno would of seen the elevator wall concave) yet in no instance do we even see Diavolo punch the hole in the roof or cut trish's hand off, hell we dont even hear trish scream or say anything from getting said hand cut, plus Diavolo isnt fast enough to even do that without Bruno or Trish noticing (he even says himself he lacks the speed to take out trish without being caught near the end, with Bruno's gang around, he simply isnt fast enough).

Or do you mean the Giorno things? I was actually mistaken in that instance, we can count the time erases after that but not before, although I'm pretty damn sure Giorno would of noticed multi-spam time skips prior and would of alerted Bruno then not after so point still stands, Giorno didnt notice multiple time skips.

Honestly, doing mental gymnastics to try and explain things that clearly didnt happen based on your preconceived notion that he simply cant even though its never stated he cant and the reasoning of nothing can touch him in erased time is faulty and outright contradicted by things that you agree with, because even if things cant touch him, he can and has interacted with others by moving things and the like, which you said yourself, you cant even use this as a point because if you did youd have to say he cant do anything, not even moving things within erased time as that's touching, which we all know is false, essentially your argument boils down to he cant because he cant with no evidence other then like one or two times that he didnt, with that somehow being solid evidence of him being unable to do it even though that's just him choosing not to, with one said time being moot because he didnt need to do so and another because he was talking to the character at the time and thus couldnt erase time otherwise talking would be pointless.

But if we're going back and forth, explain how King Crimson managed to break Mista's gun while in erased time or punching a hole in the elevator top (or impaling Narancia, because at that point the glitchy visual effect is a thing so we know when the time erase begins and ends, of which all of that happens within it), do note at that point in example 1 and 3 the glitch effect had been introduced so we know exactly when it begins, when it ends and how many there were, let's start with that.

 

[Antvasima]

@Eficiente

Thank you for helping out.

 

[Eficiente]

I don't think the instance makes sense either way, Diavolo wouldn't realistically have the time to do all that in the time that he did. Everything he needed was a moment of Bruno not looking at Trish, which he had. We don't seeing him doing it can be interpreted in both ways. Was that hole in the manga too? And could it be that it was there before the Trish thing?

 

[Chariot190]

It doesnt matter if it makes sense, of course it doesnt make sense, it's King Crimson, it being convulated and wishwashy is literal a meme (which i think is kinda exagerrated a tad but oh well) but what matters is if he did do it, and he did and that was the whole point of the scene anyway to begin with, to introduce time skip in a mysterious manner.

And in that instance? He probably could of done it all assuming he started time skip while on top of the elevator, punched the hole, tore off trishs hand and then picked her up and then time resumed, that actually isnt much when you think about it, it's only like 3 actions.

>We don't seeing him doing it can be interpreted in both ways.

Not really, youre actually the only person ive ever seen even try to suggest that he skipped time, resumed time to cut off trish's hand, then skip time again, all without somehow getting noticed. And no, what he needed was Bruno not to be looking at all, the elevator is literally to small for him to have not been seen, and Trish was standing at the back the elevator and Bruno was looking to the side, slightly in front of Trish, there is literally no way that he would have gone unnoticed.

>Was that hole in the manga too? And could it be that it was there before the Trish thing?

Unsure, but unless youre trying to say that Diavolo would of walked straight through the elevator doors to do it, I find that very dubious. The elevator hadnt reached the top floor yet so he kinda couldnt of did what youre suggesting, Diavolo escaped through the elevator shaft meaning he was either above or below it prior as it hadnt reached its destination yet and the elevator doors appear to have been completely untouched, with no difference being shown in any of panels. Bruno makes sure to check the elevator for anything suspicipous before entering, I'm pretty sure he'd have noticed the hole prior when he was looking for things like that as well as when he was looking directly up at that corner when talking to trish.

Regardless, I'd like to hear your explanation for how he managed to break bars, pick up narancia and impale him on it, then move the bars back in place, all within one time skip as shown by the glitch effect only happening once.

 

[Eficiente]

I don't think things don't making sense is something in favor of this. And btw, I'm willing to think he can break things within erased time, the options of can he can do there are

• He can move things and people
• He can move things and people and break things
• And he can do anything

There is no "all without somehow getting noticed", his ability is meant to not be noticed by others, he just had to cut a hand, that's all, he can approche with time erase, he can leave with time erase and he has no cool down. It makes perfect sense for him to do that.

For Narancia he just had to erase time, move Narancia near the bars, stop erasing time, break the bars (if they weren't like that before, and if he didn't use a time erase before just to break them) impale him there, erase time again, move where he was before and stop erasing time. Alternatively, given that time is pretty much causality for him and the world needs it for things to happen, Diavolo could have impale Narancia within the time erase, and that in turn wouldn't kill him until time resumes, when the effects of damage follow the situation Narancia had.

 

[Chariot190]

>I don't think things don't making sense is something in favor of this. And btw, I'm willing to think he can break things within erased time, the options of can he can do there are

It's not even that it doesnt make sense, the only actual issue is a preconceived notion that he cant, which is never stated in the manga or anime.

>He can move things and people. He can move things and people and break things. And he can do anything

That right there is the issue, the correct answer is, he can do what he's been shown to do. There isnt any reason for these options, if the statement of him not being able to interact with things doesnt exist then this entire debate shouldnt even be a debate, if he's shown that he can then he can and he's shown that he can move targets and objects, break objects, and in some cases inflict bodily harm, there really isnt a debate to be had.

>There is no "all without somehow getting noticed", his ability is meant to not be noticed by others, he just had to cut a hand, that's all, he can approche with time erase, he can leave with time erase and he has no cool down. It makes perfect sense for him to do that.

Are you actually trying to say that Bruno or Trish wouldnt of seen Diavolo and his big ass buff Stand suddenly appear, cut her hand, then suddenly dissapear within a cramped elevator? Diavolo would of been literally within Bruno's line of sight as Trish was huddled behind Bruno in the corner of the elevator, he literally couldnt of cut Trish's arm off from within the elevator without being seen by Bruno because the only space in the elevator that wasnt occupied he was looking at, he wasnt doing it unnoticed and he lacks the speed to do that without being seen as well.

>For Narancia he just had to erase time, move Narancia near the bars, stop erasing time, break the bars (if they weren't like that before, and if he didn't use a time erase before just to break them) impale him there, erase time again, move where he was before and stop erasing time.

Literally impossible, Narancia was next to them, time skips once and it has nothing to do with the characters noticing, although Bruno deduces (correctly at that) that King Crimson is hiding and isnt risking manifesting in the open or when he may be spotted in case he will be seen but the glitch effect only happens once, meaning he only erased time once, he'd need multipe time erases to do what you said. If what youre trying to say is true then we'd see that glitch effect like 4 times, we dont, Trish goes to hand Mista some bullets, time skips, within the skip is when all that happened. I actually dont know why youre trying to say that, I already said we know for a 100% confirmed fact he only used time erase once in that entire scene because we only see the glitch effect once, ergo all that happened within one time erase, especially as things had to have been done in a specific order, of which harming narancia wasnt last.

>Alternatively, given that time is pretty much causality for him and the world needs it for things to happen, Diavolo could have impale Narancia within the time erase, and that in turn wouldn't kill him until time resumes, when the effects of damage follow the situation Narancia had.

So youre saying the bars magically broke within erased time, narancia magically flew up and impaled himself on the bars, the bars moved back in place to prevent easy access to the body and time resumed? That's utterly ridiculous if im understand you correctly, that's an actual baseless assumption not supported or even hinted at by anything. Unless you mean Narancia and the bars flew up and did the thing after time resumed, which is once again ridiculous seeing as he was already impaled when time resumed. Or are you saying that he cant kill in erased time but only inflict damage? That seems like a extremely unfounded claim and would be contradicted by the trish example because if that was the case Bruno would of straight up seen trish's body catch up with what happened within erased time. That or youre saying that he ca inflict damage in time erased, only that the damage wont become real (technically) till time resumed, issue with that is if that's the case then he couldnt of moved trish or impaled narancia because he needed to cut trishs hand off to move her within erased time and in order to place narancia on some bars he would of had to have damaged his body to impale him. The fact that things happen after the injuries within the erased time disprove that point, the damage must of been inflicted while time no longer existed in order to do the following actions in those instances.

Basically, I want an actual quote or hard evidence that explicitly disproves or contradicts the clear cut evidence, not conjecture, hypotheticals, what ifs, all of which require mental gymnastics. Also dont forget, Occam's Razor is a thing, all your explanations kinda outright require numerous assumptions (and in one case require assumptions that are proven false in the scene alone, like multiple time skips while impaling narancia) as well as ignoring the context of the scenes, like KIng Crimson not wanting to be seen and absolutely refusing to manifest out in the open, opting to only doit while time no longer existed.

 

[PlotInducedStupidity]

Eficiente mentioned possible options of what King Crimson can do, and the second seems to make the most sense: he can break things and move people.

This explanation only leaves the fortune teller, the introductory arc unexplained and, to an extent, Narancia unexplained, as far as I can tell.

The fortune teller could just be MFTL King Crimson acting far faster than the fortune teller can react.

The introductory arc has Diavolo cut Trish's, but it also has the weird instance where Bruno sees his future self. The fact the Bruno sees his future self suggests to me that both of these instances are part of an earlier version of King Crimson's abilities that Araki decided to scrap. He has demonstrated doing this with D4C, and a few other minor instances with other stands throughout the series (remember how stands were affected by breathing for a single fight?) so I hardly think it is unreasonable to suggest the same was done for King Crimson.

Narancia is a strange case because we don't see what happened, but it seems to fall under the explanation of breaking things and moving people: he breaks the bars, and leaves Narancia in such a way that when the erase ends, he is impaled. Alternatively he could have broken the bars, and just placed Narancia where the bars were so that when time resumes he is impaled.

None of the Narancia explanations are great, but the scene itself is one we get little information on and is constructed to give maximum shock value rather than be a fully consistent display of King Crimson's ability. I see the Narancia scene as being an inconsistency because of that and because it would also mean we have to rely upon Diavolo being incredibly stupid to never even attempt something similar throughout the story.

A quote or hard evidence that doesn't suffer from a few inconsistencies is never going to be found. As you mentioned earlier the confusing nature of King Crimson is a meme. Equally most instances that could be used as evidence aren't as clear cut as you think, as any explanations from either Eficiente or me show.

 

[Eficiente]

That thing about the preconceived notion was pretty clear the first time you said it. "he can do anything" aimed to mean what you said there.

JoJo is pretty aware of Stands having superhuman speed, one example is SP giving Jotaro a drink right in front of someone with somewhat comparable reactions. Diavolo is doing less than that here, not to mention that you are exaggerating what he has to do. Appearing and cutting her hand is the same action as well as the only one. Dissapear is, again, done within erased time. Bruno's not looking at her when she disappears.

He does erases time more than once, so no. We don't know why he does so as Mista's body is still observably there but is it doesn't perfectly fit in both ways. Also we don't see the bars don't being broken before.

There is no "magically flew up" because, again, he can move people within erased time. They obviously don't need to be unconscious. We don't know how Araki interpreted the cause and effect thing, should Diavolo be able to break things within erased time (which may be the case) he should as well be able to dissect people within it.

 

[Chariot190]

>That thing about the preconceived notion was pretty clear the first time you said it. "he can do anything" aimed to mean what you said there.

Then stop trying to argue based upon said preconceived notion.

>JoJo is pretty aware of Stands having superhuman speed, one example is SP giving Jotaro a drink right in front of someone with somewhat comparable reactions.

False analogy, Darby isnt MFTL like Trish and Bruno are while King Crimson canonically lacks the speed.

>Diavolo is doing less than that here, not to mention that you are exaggerating what he has to do. Appearing and cutting her hand is the same action as well as the only one. Dissapear is, again, done within erased time. Bruno's not looking at her when she disappears.

I'm really not, he has to suddenly apear without getting noticed, which is literally impossible and then cut off Trish's hand. Bruno wasnt looking at her? You're now forcing me to repeat myself because you're now straight up ignoring what I said, Bruno not looking at her means nothing, he doesnt need to see Trish to have seen King Crimson and Diavolo, the elevator is to small and due to Trish's position in the hypothetical moment you keep thinking happens, he would of been seen no matter what due to elevator size and the only place he could appear in was within Bruno's line of sight.


>He does erases time more than once, so no. We don't know why he does so as Mista's body is still observably there but is it doesn't perfectly fit in both ways. Also we don't see the bars don't being broken before.

No he doesnt? In the scene with Narancia, there was only one time skip, not several like your hypothesis requires, I've said this multiple times and it's getting tiring because this part specifically aint a debate, it's a fact we know. 00:12, is the only time skip that happened within the narancia death, not several, you are absolutely wrong on this matter, not due to differing opinions on something bt because it's a confirmed fact you are ignoring.

>There is no "magically flew up" because, again, he can move people within erased time. They obviously don't need to be unconscious. We don't know how Araki interpreted the cause and effect thing, should Diavolo be able to break things within erased time (which may be the case) he should as well be able to dissect people within it.

You clearly misintepreted what I was saying but no issue, doesnt matter, youre right we dont know how Araki intepreted that except we kinda do because we see Diavolo's pov a few times. Nero's body is damaged in erased time by Narancia's bullets, not physically but the damage is still superimposed onto him. should Diavolo be able to move, break things and dissect others, literally nothing is saying he cant attack others too, which is the case.

>Eficiente mentioned possible options of what King Crimson can do, and the second seems to make the most sense: he can break things and move people.

The issue with that is that Efi is kinda ignoring context in most of those explanations.

>This explanation only leaves the fortune teller, the introductory arc unexplained and, to an extent, Narancia unexplained, as far as I can tell.

Not quite, especially if you count the random rose in the anime.

>The fortune teller could just be MFTL King Crimson acting far faster than the fortune teller can react.

I'll conceede that could be the case but context here, King Crimson ca blitz him, but the fact he could doesnt mean he did, it's very clearly supposed to be time erase given context and narrative, the fact one has to assume things that clearly werent intended to be the case to what is supposed be happening should tell you that isnt the case.

>The introductory arc has Diavolo cut Trish's, but it also has the weird instance where Bruno sees his future self. The fact the Bruno sees his future self suggests to me that both of these instances are part of an earlier version of King Crimson's abilities that Araki decided to scrap.

You're comparing two different facets of the ability and the seeing future self part is the only thing dropped after that arc. The thing with the hands wasnt dropped because it hapens again with the fortune teller and King Crimson works the same in the opening arc then it does at the end, we see how it acts and functions while he does it against Bruno in the pillar room, it's the exact same so it wasnt a beta concept for it. The future thing being dropped has no bearig on the hand thing as the hand thing happens again over an enire arc later.

>He has demonstrated doing this with D4C, and a few other minor instances with other stands throughout the series (remember how stands were affected by breathing for a single fight?) so I hardly think it is unreasonable to suggest the same was done for King Crimson.

It is unreasonable, explained above, also D4C does do exactly what he was explained to do in the opening later on again, just the mechanics were changed slightly, not what he can do or the power.


>Narancia is a strange case because we don't see what happened, but it seems to fall under the explanation of breaking things and moving people: he breaks the bars, and leaves Narancia in such a way that when the erase ends, he is impaled. Alternatively he could have broken the bars, and just placed Narancia where the bars were so that when time resumes he is impaled.

We dont see it happen because it happened in erased time, that's the entire point, nobody had the chance to react and save him. Leaves Narancia in such a way that when time erase ends he is impaled? Impossible, the bars have to of been moved back into place after the impalation, the bars were snapped apart, narancia impaled then put back into place, narancia could of just fell on the things or something, that's literally impossible given how the bars were placed. And for your last bit, you're saying King Crimson can literally telefrag targets but if he can do that why even break the bars to do it? Neither of your explanations are possible or make sense given what he did in order to do it.

>None of the Narancia explanations are great, but the scene itself is one we get little information on and is constructed to give maximum shock value rather than be a fully consistent display of King Crimson's ability. I see the Narancia scene as being an inconsistency because of that and because it would also mean we have to rely upon Diavolo being incredibly stupid to never even attempt something similar throughout the story.

You're right, the explanations arent good and require so many assumptions on things that we hundred percent know didnt happen it's actually ludicrous to think I'm even having this debate. We get little infomation on it because it all happened within erased time, that's literally the point. It being shocking means nothing and it being a consistent display of King Crimson's power is literally under the assumption that he cant interact with others which is a fabrication that nobody has a source on, it isnt inconsistent because it isnt contradcting anything which is what I'm nearly positive all of you are debating on, the assumption that he cant harm others when the only thing that says that doesnt exist. Diavolo being stupid doesnt really matter, why? Because lets run down the times that he would have done this, Bruno, he didnt want to rase time with him, he was specifically talking to Bruno whle killing him thus if he erased time he wouldnt be able to talk to him as Bruno wouldnt remember. Polnareff, literally uneeded, he knew he was above Polnareff and managed to kill him just fine, and GER, which is heavily debateable, especially given that upon being RTZ'd, King Crimson tried to throw another punch while moving backward which implies that he can harm others within rased time otherwise why throw a punch when he knows the erased time was going backward thus wouldnt end when the punch lnded? a

>A quote or hard evidence that doesn't suffer from a few inconsistencies is never going to be found. As you mentioned earlier the confusing nature of King Crimson is a meme. Equally most instances that could be used as evidence aren't as clear cut as you think, as any explanations from either Eficiente or me show.

Once again, the only inconsistencies are the nonexistent and baseless assumptions that he cant, when in fact, he shown he can. They're clear cut and your explanations along with EFi are actually straight up impossible in some cases and require an awful lot of assumptions and ignore context. So yes, an actual statement would be nice otherwise you and Efi jumping through hoops to make sense of it (while makig assumptions that are blatantly false like multi-skip in the narancia scene) arent goingto cut it, trying with extreme difficulty to make sense of the scenes to fit the notion he cant harm others aint gonna cut it because that notion doesnt exist.

 

[Eficiente]

I think I'm going to respectfully stop responding in this thread and see what others think. This is just one of those rare occasions in which I'm too lazy to continue the debate, the last threads in which I stopped commenting were for largely different reasons.

 

[Chariot190]

I mean no offense, but it honestly seems like you're debating from belief that it cant be the case and not that it isnt the case. And with things like him impaling Narancia, your explanation is contradicted explicitly by what we see. If the issue is Diavolo becoming more broken or something in matches or some shit, dont worry, it aint exactly the most in character thing ever under SBA, otherwise the only issue I actually see here is the established belief that he cant which was never actually said.

Also congratulation on your color.

 

[Antvasima]

Can somebody provide an easy to understand summary of the issue, arguments and conclusions here?