Kenshiro vs Vanilla Ice

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

I dont even think Cream is the void, pretty sure the void is actually the dark dimension.


And the DIO example ain't exactly the best one for your case, his Stand was dusted and annihilated, it was gone and even stated by the narrator to be completely destroyed yet Dio was mostly there and even lived through it.

Playing keep away is fine but how long will he be fine untill he exhaust his ki and eventually sttamina?

A day? A week? A month? Ice is still gonna be fine enough to fight by then

Edit: And if the void is the dark dimension his precog And Soryu likely won't work.

 

[PTSOXMONKEY99]

It's literally described as Cream turning into the void Ball. It's not the dark dimension. It's just Cream.

But notice how the wounds to the Stand match up with DIO's. And physical punches don't really compare to an energy that erase you from existence. Say Cream's arm is erased. I'm fairly confident that the same would reflect on Cream, since Stands have been shown to be effected by energy (Golden Experience Requiem shooting energy, Hierophant Green's emerald splash, etc).

And Ken's stamina will last long enough for him to realize he needs to resort to his ultimate techniques. He has a healing factor, and shown that he can go for days on end, with little food and water, and still fight. He's not gonna try the hit it until it dies method, he's gonna adapt to his opponents method of attacks.

Also, remember that Ice has to peak out of the void to see what's going on, meaning that Ken will be able use both his precognitions to predict where Ice will be and what he will do, leaving him open to be attacked by Muso Tensei or any other of Ken's techniques.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Yeah I'm not so sure, Cream swallows itself and inside its mouth is the dark dimension, from thst point on theres just a void that eats whatever it touches. I can almost gurantee said void isn't cream but rather the entrance to the dark dimension.

And the wounds don't match up to DIO's, they were both bisected yeah but nothing beyond that, one happened to be destroyed completely with no trace left remaining and one just exploded in two, maybe 3 pieces.

I'm sure Ken would adaot to the situation but Ice usnt stupid despite what it looks like, hes just kinda batshit crazy and has the hots for DIO, in a battke whete Dio aint around or will effect the battle Ice aint gonna be as stupid plus almost all his attacks were calculated against polnareff.

I'm aware he needs to peek out but that chances of him peeking out and it being right next to Ken is just as likely as Ice hitting Ken in the first place.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

And just to add, just because it turns into the void doesn't mean it is said void.

 

[PTSOXMONKEY99]

Well if his mouth is the portal, then that means that it it is just Cream, just turned inside out. Meaning he's gonna get trapped.

Still, damage reflection is still a thing. And I don't think getting blown to bits and healing over and over can be considered a victory on Cream's part. And even if Ice survived Cream's destruction, that just means he gets stuck in the void, and Ken will have erased Cream, meaning Ken will effectively BFR'd Ice with his own Stand.

But here's the thing. When Ice pops out of the void, he's got this to worry about: getting grabbed telekinetically and pulled away from Cream, getting hit with a ki blast, getting sliced at the cellular level, having space distorted around him, leaving him disoriented and confused (its an effect of the technique), getting hit with the existence erasing power of Muso Tensei, and dozens of clones who can use all of Ken's techniques. Eventually, Ken will realize that Ice has to come out of the sphere to steer himself. So Ken will stock up on clones, what for Ice to pop up, and then use all of the aforementioned techniques to overwhelm Ice.

Speed may be equalized, but when your opponent can see into the future and sense out your presence, and create multiple clones of himself, all of which can use either close or long range attacks, you can only play keep away for so long until he gets tagged. And getting tagged by Ken means that Ice is gonna get obliterated instantly due to the AP difference. And while he's healing, Ken can just use his ice powers to freeze Ice's remains, keepin them from putting themselves back together, or use Muso Tensei to erase ice for good.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Let me rephrase that, the portal is inside its mouth.

Almost everything you named off is required to be cqc or can be dodged, like my blasts due to speed equal consudering they'd need to cover far more distance Ice has to just to go back inside.

Tk is a maybe, freezing isn't a big deal consudering DIO, a vampire like ice, could do that very thing to himself no less.

And precog and seeing the future is only relevant if itd actually work on Cream and without it, at that point he doesn't know what he's fighting, he cant see it or predicts its path and more. without it, Cream is far more likely to get the first hit abd either disintegrate him or at the least BFR and the whole keep away untill tagged goes for Ken too, if he gets tagged that's it but Ice has the bonus of not actually being in the same dimension and being invisible.

But the current thing is if the void is Cream or the dimension, if its not Cream tgat would mean Soryu and precog wont work which then goes on to heavily effect the fight as Jen wont kniw what to do or hkw to react to an invisible, intangible void that eats everything that he cant react to without randomly guessing.

And last thing, ice doesnt need to peek out to steer, he peeks out to see if he got his opponent.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

If it matters Abdul couldn't sense Ice at all either while he was in the void.

 

[ItalianGuy1234]

Voting Kenshiro due to hax and strength advantage

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

it isn't just sensing its precog that ken has to counter surprise attacks

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

I'm aware if thst but it states enemies that enter his aura as the initiative for it on his profile, Cream or Ice aren't entering his aura.

 

[PTSOXMONKEY99]

But when Ice pops out of the void, which he will eventually have to do, Ken, he is automatically gonna enter Ken's aura. That's how it works.

Ken can literally sees the future outcomes of both his and Ice's attacks. He is gonna see what happens if he charges forwards, what happens if he uses a certain attack, what happens if he does nothing etc. He ca predict what will happen.

And if Polanerff can figure out how to find Cream's movements then Ken should be able to as well, since he's a highly analytic fighter

Ice cannot see where he is attacking or if he has even killed anything while he is in the void, that is an established thing. Meaning that he is gonna eventually pop out to see if he's killled ken or if he is just running around in circles. As soon as he is out of the void, he's gonna enter Ken's aura (can has been spread aura out over an area before), meaning Ken will be able sense Ice's location.

And even with speed equalized, it's gonna be hard to dodge multiple attacks from multiple directions, especially if your opponent will know where you are.

And here's something I want to bring attention to.

You claim that all Stands in JoJo's can harm intangible beings because they can all punch ghosts according to Rohan. Ok, lets go with that (mostly because I don't feel like rereading Part 4).

But then you claim that the void ball isn't Cream (the Stand) but is instead just a ball made of void.

Here's the thing, if the attack is just a void ball, then Ken's intangibility should still work here, since the ball isn't Cream, but his attack. Meaning that it's not a Stand.

So, it's either the ball is just a void, meaning that Ken can use either of his forms of intangibility to just let the ball pass through him harmlessly, or the ball IS Cream, and Ken can use Soryu Tenra on it to bring Cream to his pocket dimension and destroy it, leaving Ice stuck in the void dimension, effectively BFRing him.

 

[PTSOXMONKEY99]

Also, I'm beginning to question Ice's ability to even effect Muso Tensei.

Your comparing the ghost intangibility to Muso Tensei's intangibility, which isn't really correct. I know that verse equalization makes it so that neither have their in-universe mechanics working for them, but there is something to note about Muso Tensei.

Muso Tensei is made of nothingness. When Ken activates this, it allows him to become one with that nothingness. He essentially embodies that Nothingness that Muso Tensei utilizes.

This isn't just him going intangible. This is him becoming nothingness.

Can Cream erase nothingness?

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

I probably missed some votes

Vanilla Ice: 3

Kenshiro: 2

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Who knows, it goes both way, can Muso Tensei erase a void? Polnareff never outright predicted Ice's movements outside of using the fool or when he was crippled and couldn't move.

Yes I'm sticking by the fact the ball technically isn't cream rather a void.

Of course Ken being able to use precog on a void or muso tensei something that literalky isn't there is debatable.

Is there anything to suggest he can?

 

[PTSOXMONKEY99]

Not saying that he can erase the void, but it should still make him intangible and nigh impossible to touch.

But if Pol was smart enough to use sand to locate Cream, than Ken should be to.

As aforementioned, his precog lets him predict the effect of his actions/attacks. When he gets a flash of himself getting mutilated, he's gonna do the smart thing and jump out of the way. And as aforementioned, Ken has become one with nothingness. Can't erase Nothingness. Or, at least Cream can't, since we've only seen him work on physical objects.

And Ice still has to come out t see if he's hit anything, we've seen this in his fight with Pol and Iggy. Almost all of his moves had to be calculated by him coming out of the void.

Example: Ice waiting at the entry to the mansion because he couldn't tag the running Iggy and Pol.

Cream moving in a spiral pattern because he didn't know where Pol was and figure that he would eventually hit the crippled Pol

Ice poping out of the void to see his handiwork and then getting skewered by Pol.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Technically speaking, the very fact his void can harm stands already means it doesnt work on only physical objects.

And his orofile states he sees the future wgen an enemy us in his aura to predict their movement not that he can do it whenever, he wont know exactky what to do against Cream so who's to say he'll go straight for muso Tensei?

Plus the last one he figured Pol was dead since he basically was guaranteed to be and only lived with outside help.

 

[PTSOXMONKEY99]

Verse equalization is a thing~

It's worded weirdly, but here's how precog works in the Hokutoverse:

Raoh sees the future where he chooses to attack Rei head on, and adapts accordingly. Kenshiro is a practitioner of the same martial arts as Raoh, so he has the exact same abilities. There's also the fact that Kenshiro harmonized with Raoh's soul via Muso Tensei, and uses his powers later on, which includes his precog.

A user of Hokuto Ryuken, Liu Zongwu was the one who could deduct movements via reading auras.

But still, all the above example show that Ice will eventually expose himself to see if his attacks are affected. His linear movements will only make it easier for Ken to dodge.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

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[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

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