Kenshiro vs Lucius

[Robo432343]

Kenshiro (Hokuto no Ken)

Kenshiro (拳けん士し郎ろう, Kenshirō?) is the protagonist of the Hokuto no Ken franchise, the 64th successor of the Hokuto Shinken style of martial arts, and the greatest of all of them in its 1,800 years. Originally an orphan from Taiseiden, Asura, and a descendant of the Hokuto Sōke bloodline, he was...

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vs

Lucius Zogratis

Lucius Zogratis is the hidden 4th and eldest sibling of the Zogratis family and the devil host of the supreme devil Astaroth, wielder of Time Magic. He is the current and main antagonist of the final act of Black Clover, acting as the final bastion for Asta and Yuno to reach the rank of Wizard...

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Battle for strongest 5-C dude

SBA
Speed Equal

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

Unless Kenshiro auto Muso tensei just to SURVIVE, he will be time stopped at the beginning of the fight

Even then, it seems he just becomes "intangible" and Lucius can affect his soul which bypass a layer of resistance, stomp, but because Kenshiro is completely ****** by range and no resistance to Lucius hax at all

If Kenshiro is able to use Soryu tenra, his power null is not as good as Asta, Lucius still can use his powers, maybe it can work for being a different power null but I am not sure

 

[Robo432343]

Unless Kenshiro auto Muso tensei just to SURVIVE, he will be time stopped at the beginning of the fight

Even then, it seems he just becomes "intangible" and Lucius can affect his soul which bypass a layer of resistance, stomp, but because Kenshiro is completely ****** by range and no resistance to Lucius hax at all

If Kenshiro is able to use Soryu tenra, his power null is not as good as Asta, Lucius still can use his powers, maybe it can work for being a different power null but I am not sure

I agree with you but Lucius can't affect Ken's soul because he doesn't have a soul in the first place

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

Weird that he has no soul inmunity in his page

 

[Robo432343]

so is this incon??

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

so is this incon??

Lucius can easily time hax him for one day straight if soul manipulation does not work

Or he can crush Kenshiro to the ground with class Z gravity while Kenshiro is time stopped

The only problem is if Kenshiro automatically use intangibility even when he is out of range of his opponent, Lucius would instantly time stop him the moment the fight starts and Kenshiro has precog, but he is not in range to do anything so he has no knowledge of what he has to do

 

[Robo432343]

Lucius can easily time hax him for one day straight if soul manipulation does not work

Lucius can time hax but i don't think that will be very helpful when it comes to incapping because of MT

Or he can crush Kenshiro to the ground with class Z gravity while Kenshiro is time stopped

He can't do that because of MT

The only problem is if Kenshiro automatically use intangibility even when he is out of range of his opponent, Lucius would instantly time stop him the moment the fight starts and Kenshiro has precog,

yeah i'm not sure if Kenshiro automatically MT's even when he is out of range, we'll have to wait and see

but he is not in range to do anything so he has no knowledge of what he has to do

no knowledge?
"The characters know the direction their opponent(s) start in. Furthermore, they get knowledge of the character's appearance, equivalent to the knowledge they could have gained if they would have been allowed to briefly observe the form opponent(s) starting in using their senses of sight, hearing, smell, taste and touch (or equivalent). It's assumed that they only get the information necessary to identify the opponent(s), so abilities like Information Analysis can not be used based on this knowledge. Negative effects of the observation, such as those caused by Madness Manipulation Type 3, are assumed to not apply for this knowledge either. Aside from this, the characters have no knowledge of each other."

Also i saw this interesting thing on Ken's profile
"Hokuto Shinken's very nature is of one adaptability and it has infinite fighting variations in order to overcome every obstacle and opponent, no matter the difference in strength)"
This might take care of the range issue

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

Hokuto Shinken's very nature is of one adaptability and it has infinite fighting variations in order to overcome every obstacle and opponent, no matter the difference in strength

NLF, no one in his anime is using gravity powers, time powers and etc, if it were a martial art I would buy it, but is magic, something completely different

Lucius can time hax but i don't think that will be very helpful because of MT

Why? If he gets time stopped, he can't move nor think, without thinking, MT can't be activated

He can't do that because of MT

Read above

It's assumed that they only get the information necessary to identify the opponent(s)

Yes, to identify, but Lucius then just mana zone 4 KM away time magic, intantly without moving and Kenshiro is time stopped, Kenshiro sees him being stand still and then gg

 

[Robo432343]

NLF, no one in his anime is using gravity powers, time powers and etc

gravity stuff exist in the verse

• Spatial Manipulation, Gravity Manipulation and Pocket Reality Manipulation (Hokuto Ryuken fighters can bend space around themselves to avoid being hit. With Anryu Tenha the use can trap the opponent in a non-gravitational dimension where the space is extremely distorted)
• Spatial Manipulation and Gravity Manipulation (The Matōki Aura can control the arena and is also capable of creating an instant anti-gravity effect that completely disorients its victims)

, if it were a martial art I would buy it, but is magic, something completely different

Hokuto Ryuken is both martial art and magic though

Why? If he gets time stopped, he can't move nor think, without thinking, MT can't be activated

But MT is automatic
it can be activated even without thinking
(Musō Tensei is made of the nothingness which predates life, and allows the user to achieve a state of said nothingness. It’s also stated to be able to erase the user’s body from existence. MT activates automatically to protect the user from danger, even when the user is completely unconscious
Furthermore, an attack thrown while in MT is considered to be "impossible to predict" since it comes from a "blank mind" despite the fact that things like subconscious reflex is considered to be a fodder technique

Read above

Yes, to identify, but Lucius then just mana zone 4 KM away time magic, intantly without moving and Kenshiro is time stopped, Kenshiro sees him being stand still and then gg

If range really is an issue, Kenshiro has perception blitz
Kenshiro not having to think to use MT>Lucius using thought based time hax? not sure

thats why i think its incon
no one can do anything to each other

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

Then Inconclusive or Lucius just time hax which should stop him for 24 hours

I did not know MT was automatic nor the gravity staff, I am sorry

How is Hokuto Ryuken magic? Because then Lucius can power null

 

[Robo432343]

I did not know MT was automatic nor the gravity staff, I am sorry

tbh im not sure if MT is automatic or not anymore
it says on his profile that it is automatic but then someone told me MT just activates unconsciously which is just super duper fast

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

Lucius' gravity should still work on Kenshiro, Lucifero managed to destroy Dorothy's world of glamor which is made up of dreams that fit the description of non-existent physiology type 1 according to the Subjective reality page

 

[Epsilon_R]

If it's for the strongest for every tier, then Lucius takes this due to ken not having strong resistance to soul manip. Nothing in his profile seems to imply he lacks a soul too

Ken can only hope to win is in a speed equal scenario where MT ends activates before Timestop.

Problem with that is:
1/ That mean Ken can only at best beat in when speed is equal
2/ MT automatically activating =/= MT activating instantaneously. I don't see what implies that the whole body shift to nothingness would be faster than thought based time stop

 

[Robo432343]

If it's for the strongest for every tier, then Lucius takes this due to ken not having strong resistance to soul manip. Nothing in his profile seems to imply he lacks a soul too

Kenshiro has NEP type 1 aspect 1
"These are characters whose soul and/or astral body is nonexistent. They are hence immune to regular Soul Manipulation."

2/ MT automatically activating =/= MT activating instantaneously. I don't see what implies that the whole body shift to nothingness would be faster than thought based time stop

Because MT activates without thinking

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

 

[Epsilon_R]

Kenshiro has NEP type 1 aspect 1
"These are characters whose soul and/or astral body is nonexistent. They are hence immune to regular Soul Manipulation."

Because MT activates without thinking

It activates without thinking, but that still doesn't mean it's instantaneous. That's like saying Ultra Instinct should always be faster than any thought based hax because he doesn't think.

And NEP 1 doesn't help against time stop

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

Does Lucius use the time stop right off the bat? I do not know Black Clover so that's why I want to make sure.

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

Does Lucius use the time stop right off the bat? I do not know Black Clover so that's why I want to make sure.

Yes

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Smh...

Is Kenshiro like immune to physical attacks or something... Why has nobody mentioned Lucius dismembering his body with his bare-hands while time is stopped.

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

Yes

Can I see some scans on the multiple occasions he’s just opened up with time stop? Would really help tbh.

Is Kenshiro like immune to physical attacks or something... Why has nobody mentioned Lucius dismembering his body with his bare-hands while time is stopped.

Reading two steps ahead of your opponent can go kinda stupid ngl. Also Muso Tensei.

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

ZonaTMO

Tu lector de manga online

visortmo.com

If you can go to this page

He appears

Time stop, no asking, every single fight he does the same, in the war, against William, he starts with a time shield to protect himself from attacks because William was the first to attack him, knowing fully he could defend himself easily

Right now in the manga he can't do that because Yuno is doing a massive spell to protect everyone in the country from his time stop, otherwise he would just time stop everyone and win

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Reading two steps ahead of your opponent can go kinda stupid ngl. Also Muso Tensei.

How about reading every step of your opponent?

ALSO WHAT THE **** IS MUSO TENSEI

 

[Arnoldstone18]

But MT is automatic
it can be activated even without thinking
(Musō Tensei is made of the nothingness which predates life, and allows the user to achieve a state of said nothingness. It’s also stated to be able to erase the user’s body from existence. MT activates automatically to protect the user from danger, even when the user is completely unconscious
Furthermore, an attack thrown while in MT is considered to be "impossible to predict" since it comes from a "blank mind" despite the fact that things like subconscious reflex is considered to be a fodder technique

HUH???

WHAT DOES HAVING A BLANK MIND HAVE TO DO WITH SEEING THE LITERAL FUTURE

"uhhh..MT activates even when the user is completely unconscious..." WHAT ABOUT WHEN THE USER IS STOPPED IN TIME?

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

How about reading every step of your opponent?

The fate hax + resistance to precognition in the room (there are no layers and it doesn’t mention any other tiers on Lucius page)

 

[Epsilon_R]

The fate hax + resistance to precognition in the room (there are no layers and it doesn’t mention any other tiers on Lucius page)

Lucius reads the future itself, what Ken resists isn't future sight but merely analytical predictions. And definitely not something that can read 20k futures days to decades in advance.

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

Lucius reads the future itself, what Ken resists isn't future sight but merely analytical predictions. And definitely not something that can read 20k futures days to decades in advance.

I’m not sure what part you were reading on the page, but that is not the case?
(Resistance to Precognition, Clairvoyance and Information Analysis (Users of Hokuto Shinken can bend their fates as they choose, making it difficult to read their destinies and capabilities.)

 

[Epsilon_R]

I’m not sure what part you were reading on the page, but that is not the case?
(Resistance to Precognition, Clairvoyance and Information Analysis (Users of Hokuto Shinken can bend their fates as they choose, making it difficult to read their destinies and capabilities.)

Okay but he's not reading his destiny/future, he's reading the future of the world
The granny couldn't see anything because she tried to read his destiny

 

[Arnoldstone18]

I’m not sure what part you were reading on the page, but that is not the case?
(Resistance to Precognition, Clairvoyance and Information Analysis (Users of Hokuto Shinken can bend their fates as they choose, making it difficult to read their destinies and capabilities.)

I don’t know if it’s the same kind of precog but I don’t really wanna engage in semantics debate..

Lucifero can resist people who can change their destiny via his presence. Vanessa in black clover changes her fate and the fate of her allies, yet she knew that it wasn’t going to work on Lucifero if he paid attention to her. Lucius absorbed Lucifero so he gains his resistance. [1][2]

 

[Epsilon_R]

It's not like it changes anything anyway, he will still use time stop right off the bat without bothering to look into the future, like against Asta

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

hisashiburi dana mugiwara

 

[Idkwhyimhere3]

Lucius stomps lmao.
MT wont last forever.

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

MT wont last forever.

He can literally use it as long as he wants loool

 

[Idkwhyimhere3]

He can literally use it as long as he wants loool

No he cant because Lucius would just reverse time around Kenshiro and considering gravity effects MT time should also work and Lucius has passive gravity.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Battle for strongest 5-C dude

You better place Lucius where he belongs.

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

No he cant because Lucius would just reverse time around Kenshiro and considering gravity effects MT time should also work and Lucius has passive gravity.

Gravity is not affecting MT unless it can affect the NEP it gives Ken. I understand the time hax though (I didn't even say Ken wins because of that alone lol)

I looked above too, and (from what I have gathered, please correct me because I do not know Black Clover), Dorothy's world just sounds like Creation/Summoning. I looked at the character's profile, there wasn't even a type listed so I am going off the description alone.

"(Dorothy is capable of creating and manifesting objects and entities that aren't real at all, and only "exist" in her imagination and dreams. She can create a replica of anyone she thinks of and they will act the way she sees them)"

On it's own (unless there's more context, please provide if there is), this just sounds like "Creation/Summoning: The user is capable of creating and manifesting objects and entities that aren't real at all, and only "exist" in the imagination and dreams of the user and/or other beings."

That said, Ken does not win.

 

[Idkwhyimhere3]

Gravity is not affecting MT unless it can affect the NEP it gives Ken. I understand the time hax though (I didn't even say Ken wins because of that alone lol)

I looked above too, and (from what I have gathered, please correct me because I do not know Black Clover), Dorothy's world just sounds like Creation/Summoning. I looked at the character's profile, there wasn't even a type listed so I am going off the description alone.

"(Dorothy is capable of creating and manifesting objects and entities that aren't real at all, and only "exist" in her imagination and dreams. She can create a replica of anyone she thinks of and they will act the way she sees them)"

On it's own (unless there's more context, please provide if there is), this just sounds like "Creation/Summoning: The user is capable of creating and manifesting objects and entities that aren't real at all, and only "exist" in the imagination and dreams of the user and/or other beings."

That said, Ken does not win.

Gravity has worked on MT before in the series LMAO.

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

Gravity has worked on MT before in the series LMAO.

Are you referring to Kaioh? If so, he literally is one of the few people who can “destroy nothingness” provided by MT. Lack of scans don’t help the argument.