Kenganverse Downgrade

[NikHelton]

I propose to revise the current calculations of the verse, because they are a one-hundred-percent outlier based on incorrect scaling.

I wanted to start with the main calculation, which gave the Home key 7-C with an output of more than 20 kilotons. In my calculation, I indicated why the measurement is wrong at its root. For scaling, a mountain was used, the distance between which and the explosion is too large for this to work. If we accept the fact that the explosion spread over a kilometer, then the width of the smallest tree crown is already almost a hundred meters.
The second problem is dust, which has a calculated density of 1915 kg / m^3. However, this is true only for dust in a loose state, but not hanging in the air in any way.
The currently accepted calculation implies that Tokita has lifted 60 million tons of dust into the air, but this achievement is an absolute outlier, because according to my yet unpublished calculation with LS Julius, the most physically strong characters in the verse have Class K or low Class M.

Ohna's Demonsbane

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

100% agreed

 

[Urshani]

hi please do not change the files before you make a crt and it gets approved

 

[NikHelton]

Okay, I understand you. What do you think about the revision?

 

[Urshani]

Okay, I understand you. What do you think about the revision?

i disagree

 

[NikHelton]

Why?

 

[Eminiteable]

Don't you need to get your calculation evaluated before creating a CRT like this?

 

[Confluctor]

Don't you need to get your calculation evaluated before creating a CRT like this?

You do.

 

[azontr]

U gonna need to get that there calc evaluated my guy before making any of them CRTs.

 

[LordGinSama]

This guy clearly has no idea what he's even on about and I've already explained why in his blog. He's wrong and inherently so, to the point where its not even self aware of the amount of misconceptions and contradictions. Anyway I'll post my response to the blog here as well.

The Debunk

---

The previous calculation of KingTempest16 implies that the Oma lifted 60,209,755 tons of dust into the air, giving it a Class G lifting strength.

No, that's not how lifting strength works. This was done with a punch, a punch cannot be considered as lifting strength. So that throws that idea out of the window, making the only thing absurd is your own argument.

Firstly, KingTempest used a mountain to scale a column of dust, however, this is incorrect. We see a greater distance between the explosion and the mountain itself, so we can't scale them. Moreover, a significant part of the mountain is covered with trees, so we don't even know if it's the whole mountain or just the top. I suggest using the crowns of trees that are directly in the epicenter of the explosion to find its size.

Again this is well, just false as well. King's original calc works by scaling the amount of dust Ohma kicked into the air, the distance between them and the mountain is irrelevant as first of all, they aren't far from the mountain. Secondly you act as if he assumes the dust hit the mountain, which he didn't do in the current calc. That's for how far Ohma sent the dust flying into the air, I.E aerial coverage. Last but not least your version of the calc isn't usable as your using a ground based explosion formula for something that isn't even originated from an explosion. Preferably know what your even talking about before you attempt to criticize other calculations due to the fact that you severely lack an understanding of what's even being calculated.

The second problem is the density of dust. 1915 kg/m^3 is too much. I don't think it is necessary to explain that dust is a very loose and light thing that can hang in the air. The density of marble is 2600 kg/m^3 and the dust can not be close to this value in any way. Dust has such a density in the bulk state, but not being flying in the air. However, we see deep furrows on the ground, which suggests that the earth is burning crushed into dust and lifted into the air.

He provided a literal EDU document for the source. You saying that it's "too high." whenever KingTempest's calculation uses an actual verified citation for the density of the dust knocked up into the air. You also made a major mistake in assuming it's ground up soil, it cleary isn't. The dust present is the result of wood pulverized and such from the trees, not simple soil. Also what? You just contradicted yourself. "Dust can have that density in the bulk state." what Ohma did is exactly that, he kicked up a bulky cloud of dust. Ignoring the fact that you've blatantly ignored his citation and sources, and instead used your own density of dust that you seemingly got out of nowhere.


TLDR: All of your arguments are based upon heavy misconceptions and an attempt of blatantly trying to misconstrue information. You've been a member of this wiki for years, you know for a fact that a punch can't be considered LS.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

The wrong part of the calculation is using a perfect cylinder and a mountain several meters away. It is simpler to use a tree close to the explosion

 

[Urshani]

Why?

i refuse to elaborate

 

[LordGinSama]

The wrong part of the calculation is using a perfect cylinder and a mountain several meters away. It is simpler to use a tree close to the explosion

No it isn't, using the trees is a needles low ball whenever the dust is shown traveling way above the trees. They're more easily comparable to the mountain, as we see the dust getting kicked into the air, covering a portion of the length of the mountain.

Let's not even get into the terrible pixel scaling such as using a ******* crouched / hunched Ohma.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

I will explain later.

 

[LordGinSama]

I will explain later.

No need to, I'm right about to do so.

 

[LordGinSama]

First of all the argument that they're far away from the mountain is both unsupported by the manga and quite contradicted at that. they're seen training relatively close to the mountain and the tree argument won't slide here either as these trees are ******* massive, and are shown to be large multiple times. This is the same series where Trees can grow to be bigger than massive superstructure's such as the Kengan Arena and the Purgatory Dome.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Yeah, based on what Gin showed, they were pretty close to the mountain. I don't agree with the "they're far away" argument.

 

[KingTempest]

I propose to revise the current calculations of the verse, because they are a one-hundred-percent outlier based on incorrect scaling.

Scaling is 100% opinionated. From the calculations I've seen of this verse, they're consistent

I wanted to start with the main calculation, which gave the Home key 7-C with an output of more than 20 kilotons. In my calculation, I indicated why the measurement is wrong at its root. For scaling, a mountain was used, the distance between which and the explosion is too large for this to work. If we accept the fact that the explosion spread over a kilometer, then the width of the smallest tree crown is already almost a hundred meters.
The second problem is dust, which has a calculated density of 1915 kg / m^3. However, this is true only for dust in a loose state, but not hanging in the air in any way.
The currently accepted calculation implies that Tokita has lifted 60 million tons of dust into the air, but this achievement is an absolute outlier, because according to my yet unpublished calculation with LS Julius, the most physically strong characters in the verse have Class K or low Class M.

Ohna's Demonsbane

vsbattles.fandom.com

You literally just said "i don't like the reasoning" with no support.

The mountain isn't too far from the expansion, noted by how the width doesn't vary that much even with the dust closer to the mountain, and I only calculated the height of the dust that I could see (which is a lowball since there's still dust under the trees).

You didn't refute my density at all. You just said "this is too much". You didn't even source your density.

And who lied and said this is lifting strength?

 

[LordGinSama]

Also it's impossible for Ohma's small little skid marks on the dirt to be responsible for kicking up the dust. The dust from that gets pushed to the side and the skid marks themselves are actually tiny in comparison to the cloud of Dust Ohma knocked up so that's another thing the OP is wrong about.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

First of all the argument that they're far away from the mountain is both unsupported by the manga and quite contradicted at that. they're seen training relatively close

During the feat it seems to be noticeably more than hundreds of meters away, scaling with the mountain is inconsistent. Also, if you use a tree canopy the size won't change much, it will just make the calculation more consistent; Also, being hundreds of meters further away is one of the problems in calculating the size of the Dressrosa for exemple.

The calculation also has the problem of assuming a perfect cylinder for the feat

 

[LordGinSama]

During the feat it seems to be noticeably more than hundreds of meters away, scaling with the mountain is inconsistent.

Explain to me how the scaling to the mountain is inconsistent whenever they're shown entering in front of the Island and did not traverse further from the orginal spot.

Also, if you use a tree canopy the size won't change much, it will just make the calculation more consistent; Being hundreds of meters further away is one of the problems in calculating the size of the Dressrosa.

The only difference is that nobody has assumed Ohma and Niko were right against the mountain. The calc already takes that into consideration.

The calculation also has the problem of assuming a perfect cylinder for the feat

What would you suggest then? King can explain this part better than me.

 

[LordGinSama]

Even later when the distance is shown again it's shown that they hardly moved from the orginal spot. Simply eyeballing this the distance between them and the mountain doesn't seem to be "Hundreds of meters." or kilometers as some people are suggesting. It's also worth noting that the mountain makes up for a good chunk of the island.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Explain to me how the scaling to the mountain is inconsistent

If you try to calculate the crown of a tree in the same scene and same distance you will get more than 60 meters, which proves to be wrong here. The crown is not visibly much bigger than Ohma

What would you suggest then?

I don't know, the dust has many shapes. But a perfect cylinder clearly has wrong results

 

[KingTempest]

Using a perfect cylinder of one of the average shapes in that explosion is a fair assumption and easier than calculating overlapping shapes

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

There are many hollow areas with various spheres and triangles. Using a cylinder is really strange

 

[LordGinSama]

If you try to calculate the crown of a tree in the same scene and same distance you will get more than 60 meters, which proves to be wrong here. The crown is not visibly much bigger than Ohma

You just used a destroyed tree, most of which was pulverized as a basis for your argument? That doesn't quite sit right nor make a lot of sense to me. You also fail to mention the fact that perspective here is being taken into account as we aren't shown the full size of the crown due to it being cut off from the borders.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Personally, I feel using a cylinder is fine as an average shape. Either that or like, a half-ellipsoid idk

 

[Cul0r]

i refuse to elaborate

Bru

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

You just used a destroyed tree

You can see in the scene that the crown is not affected

You also fail to mention the fact that perspective here is being taken into account as we aren't shown the full size of the crown due to it being cut off from the borders.

Visibly not 60 meters, that's against anything I've ever seen about a tree. You are also able to see the whole size without difficulty. The perspective here is consistentas as well

 

[NikHelton]

This guy clearly has no idea what he's even on about and I've already explained why in his blog. He's wrong and inherently so, to the point where its not even self aware of the amount of misconceptions and contradictions. Anyway I'll post my response to the blog here as well.

The Debunk

---

No, that's not how lifting strength works. This was done with a punch, a punch cannot be considered as lifting strength. So that throws that idea out of the window, making the only thing absurd is your own argument.




Again this is well, just false as well. King's original calc works by scaling the amount of dust Ohma kicked into the air, the distance between them and the mountain is irrelevant as first of all, they aren't far from the mountain. Secondly you act as if he assumes the dust hit the mountain, which he didn't do in the current calc. That's for how far Ohma sent the dust flying into the air, I.E aerial coverage. Last but not least your version of the calc isn't usable as your using a ground based explosion formula for something that isn't even originated from an explosion. Preferably know what your even talking about before you attempt to criticize other calculations due to the fact that you severely lack an understanding of what's even being calculated.





He provided a literal EDU document for the source. You saying that it's "too high." whenever KingTempest's calculation uses an actual verified citation for the density of the dust knocked up into the air. You also made a major mistake in assuming it's ground up soil, it cleary isn't. The dust present is the result of wood pulverized and such from the trees, not simple soil. Also what? You just contradicted yourself. "Dust can have that density in the bulk state." what Ohma did is exactly that, he kicked up a bulky cloud of dust. Ignoring the fact that you've blatantly ignored his citation and sources, and instead used your own density of dust that you seemingly got out of nowhere.


TLDR: All of your arguments are based upon heavy misconceptions and an attempt of blatantly trying to misconstrue information. You've been a member of this wiki for years, you know for a fact that a punch can't be considered LS.

>No, that's not how lifting strength works. This was done with a punch, a punch cannot be considered as lifting strength. So that throws that idea out of the window, making the only thing absurd is your own argument.



Oh, my dear Lordy, I hasten to inform you that LS, in addition to the value of how much weight you can lift, also shows the amount of force that you can produce. Impact force, throw force, compression force. All this has been used on the wiki for a long time. I also hasten to inform you that in order to move 60 million tons of matter, you need to hit with the appropriate force. Think about it at your leisure))))



>Again this is well, just false as well. King's original calc works by scaling the amount of dust Ohma kicked into the air, the distance between them and the mountain is irrelevant as first of all, they aren't far from the mountain.



Is that why he measured the mountain in order to scale the explosion from it?



>Secondly you act as if he assumes the dust hit the mountain, which he didn't do in the current calc. That's for how far Ohma sent the dust flying into the air, I.E aerial coverage.



Did you come up with what I meant and refuted it yourself? Cool story, Lordy)))

It does not matter whether the dust falls on the mountain or not. There is too much distance between them to scale. Moreover, we don't even know if this is the whole mountain or just the top of it, in order to scale it as 603 meters.

We also often see the position from the ground and clearly observe the size of the trees. If the length of the dust column is more than a kilometer, then the trees and crowns should be colossal. But this is not the case. Moreover, in this case, it turns out that the distance of Ohma's attacks is more than a kilometer, which is absolute nonsense and has never been demonstrated in the manga.

In the last chapters, Fey attacks Akatsuki with his blood at a distance and everyone perceives this as something abnormal. I wonder why the characters here even go out for a full-contact battle, if their shock waves spread for hundreds of meters?)

Oh, these cool stories, Lordy))



>Last but not least your version of the calc isn't usable as your using a ground based explosion formula for something that isn't even originated from an explosion. Preferably know what your even talking about before you attempt to criticize other calculations due to the fact that you severely lack an understanding of what's even being calculated.



You should have known that the wiki has long been used to calculate the force of shock waves through the explosion formula. The same OPM profiles. The previous version of this calculation also used this. But you're the smartest, right?



>He provided a literal EDU document for the source. You saying that it's "too high." whenever KingTempest's calculation uses an actual verified citation for the density of the dust knocked up into the air. You also made a major mistake in assuming it's ground up soil, it cleary isn't. The dust present is the result of wood pulverized and such from the trees, not simple soil. Also what? You just contradicted yourself. "Dust can have that density in the bulk state." what Ohma did is exactly that, he kicked up a bulky cloud of dust. Ignoring the fact that you've blatantly ignored his citation and sources, and instead used your own density of dust that you seemingly got out of nowhere.



If you read this article and searched the Internet, you would understand that the density of dust in the compressed state and the density of dust in the air are not the same thing. Let me tell you so that you understand. Take a glass of sand or flour. A large such mug or jar. Now the substance occupies a certain volume and has a high density. And now abruptly throw it up. Flour or sand hang in the air. Now they take up a much larger volume. Let's take a conditional cubic meter. Would you say that 700 kilograms of flour is flying in the air right now?

You're smart, of course you won't say))

 

[NikHelton]

It is incredibly funny to me that you assume that a cubic meter of dust flying in the air weighs almost two tons.

I have already given an analogy in the comment above. Such a loose substance consisting of the smallest particles occupies a different volume when compressed or being in the air.
The density of the dust that you took implies the density of the fluid substance. That is, imagine a full barrel of sand and dust. This is relevant here.
But this same mass of dust, being as dense, cannot hang in the air, just as cobblestones cannot hang in the air from a breeze.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Nik, can you not patronize and antagonize people here?

 

[NikHelton]

Nik, can you not patronize and antagonize people here?

Sure. I will do this immediately after Lordy stops treating me subjectively. I fully understand and accept that he left a complaint about my profile, because I did not know that a CRT was conducted. But after a lot of obscene language flew in my direction, and the participant himself began to actively comment on my calculations, reinterpreting my words, writing me what I did not say and calling my calculations wrong as rudely as possible, so that when reading the comment you initially did not take them seriously.

I don't quite understand how you seriously don't notice such simple manipulations.

In my calculation, I quoted King's calc, stating the dry facts of his mistakes. Lordy started commenting on my calculation with the words that I don't understand what I'm saying and I'm talking nonsense.

But of course you can close your eyes to this))

 

[CloverDragon03]

I saw your argument with him under your calc. He was aggressive, yeah, but you were also deliberately antagonizing him and making sarcastic comments like "hey, you're the smartest right" and you're still doubling down on that sarcasm with how you responded to me saying "but of course you can close your eyes to this." It's not a good look.

 

[LordGinSama]

Oh, my dear Lordy, I hasten to inform you that LS, in addition to the value of how much weight you can lift, also shows the amount of force that you can produce. Impact force, throw force, compression force. All this has been used on the wiki for a long time. I also hasten to inform you that in order to move 60 million tons of matter, you need to hit with the appropriate force. Think about it at your leisure))))

Yeah and literal none of what you said is how we do things around here. I'd hate to inform you that you have been misinformed about our lifting strength standards. Quite frankly your personal opinion on how we scale lifting strength is irrelevant as this is the accepted principle.

>Again this is well, just false as well. King's original calc works by scaling the amount of dust Ohma kicked into the air, the distance between them and the mountain is irrelevant as first of all, they aren't far from the mountain.



Is that why he measured the mountain in order to scale the explosion from it?

Not sure what you even mean by this, so I'm just gonna ignore it until you make more comprehensive sense.

>Secondly you act as if he assumes the dust hit the mountain, which he didn't do in the current calc. That's for how far Ohma sent the dust flying into the air, I.E aerial coverage.



Did you come up with what I meant and refuted it yourself? Cool story, Lordy)))

I didn't refute myself at all, you should learn the proper definitions of words before applying them in such a manner.

It does not matter whether the dust falls on the mountain or not.

Nobody is arguing the dust fell onto the mountain, what the actual **** are you even talking about?

There is too much distance between them to scale.

No there isn't and I've already proven so via scans.

Moreover, we don't even know if this is the whole mountain or just the top of it, in order to scale it as 603 meters.

Nobody assumes the dust traveled up to all 603 meters. The dust got kicked up a few hundred feet. How's about you drop your everso obvious strawman fallacies? At this point your tyring to argue against things that nobody is even discussing.

We also often see the position from the ground and clearly observe the size of the trees. If the length of the dust column is more than a kilometer, then the trees and crowns should be colossal. But this is not the case.

I've already proven the size of those tree's, they're indeed colossal as they're comparable to a portion of the mountain. You saying "that is not the case." isn't a real argument. You provided zero citation and just act as if whatever you say is set in stone, this isn't how debating works.

Moreover, in this case, it turns out that the distance of Ohma's attacks is more than a kilometer, which is absolute nonsense and has never been demonstrated in the manga.

Expect it was demonstrated in it's first literal usage. It doesn't need to travel the same distance over and over again, Demonsbane is a counter that utilizes the opponent's attacks back at them. It can vary depending on the opponent in question, Demonsbane can reflect up to 7-C levels of damage. Again, before you say something is absurd nonsense prove it. Because thus far the only absurd nonsense is your sheer dismissal of evidence.

In the last chapters, Fey attacks Akatsuki with his blood at a distance and everyone perceives this as something abnormal. I wonder why the characters here even go out for a full-contact battle, if their shock waves spread for hundreds of meters?)

Fei's blood splatter is used as a tool of harassment similar to Akoya's Ripper. It doesn't deal damage, it's meant as a distraction which is literally stated in the fight.

Oh, these cool stories, Lordy))



>Last but not least your version of the calc isn't usable as your using a ground based explosion formula for something that isn't even originated from an explosion. Preferably know what your even talking about before you attempt to criticize other calculations due to the fact that you severely lack an understanding of what's even being calculated.



You should have known that the wiki has long been used to calculate the force of shock waves through the explosion formula. The same OPM profiles. The previous version of this calculation also used this. But you're the smartest, right?

Ohma isn't creating a shockwave there, so again this is irrelevant. There isn't any explosion nor shockwave involved in this feat. And how's about you drop the attitude huh?

>He provided a literal EDU document for the source. You saying that it's "too high." whenever KingTempest's calculation uses an actual verified citation for the density of the dust knocked up into the air. You also made a major mistake in assuming it's ground up soil, it cleary isn't. The dust present is the result of wood pulverized and such from the trees, not simple soil. Also what? You just contradicted yourself. "Dust can have that density in the bulk state." what Ohma did is exactly that, he kicked up a bulky cloud of dust. Ignoring the fact that you've blatantly ignored his citation and sources, and instead used your own density of dust that you seemingly got out of nowhere.



If you read this article and searched the Internet, you would understand that the density of dust in the compressed state and the density of dust in the air are not the same thing. Let me tell you so that you understand. Take a glass of sand or flour. A large such mug or jar. Now the substance occupies a certain volume and has a high density. And now abruptly throw it up. Flour or sand hang in the air. Now they take up a much larger volume. Let's take a conditional cubic meter. Would you say that 700 kilograms of flour is flying in the air right now?

Thanks for the elementary school physics course, none of what you said is applicable to the case here. Your assuming this a dust that's derivative from soil, whenever that isn't the case. The dust here comes from wood debris. I'm not even gonna spend time on this comparison, it's the equivalent of comparing apples to oranges. The two circumstances are different from one another. King's calculation isn't even using the density of compressed dust, so again your just bringing up irrelevant points.

It is incredibly funny to me that you assume that a cubic meter of dust flying in the air weighs almost two tons.

I have already given an analogy in the comment above. Such a loose substance consisting of the smallest particles occupies a different volume when compressed or being in the air.
The density of the dust that you took implies the density of the fluid substance. That is, imagine a full barrel of sand and dust. This is relevant here.
But this same mass of dust, being as dense, cannot hang in the air, just as cobblestones cannot hang in the air from a breeze.

Irrelevant whenever said analogy is flawed due to you using the basis of KingTempest's calculation using compressed dust whenever the calc doesn't do so to begin with.

Sure. I will do this immediately after Lordy stops treating me subjectively. I fully understand and accept that he left a complaint about my profile, because I did not know that a CRT was conducted.

Then do your research. You not knowing one was conducted is your own fault to be frank. It takes two seconds to find a CRT, and I even linked said CRT in the profiles as a reference. You went in and undid the edits, meaning you definitely saw the CRT I linked even if you didn't click it. I'm not treating you subjectivity either.

But after a lot of obscene language flew in my direction, and the participant himself began to actively comment on my calculations, reinterpreting my words, writing me what I did not say and calling my calculations wrong as rudely as possible, so that when reading the comment you initially did not take them seriously.

Oh please, this has to be one of the biggest overreaction's I've seen. You're an adult you can handle "obscene language." that wasn't even targeted at you. And none of the comments I've made on your blog are rude, that's my tone of talking. Me telling you to know what your talking about isn't rude, that's me being upfront with you since you have blatant misconceptions.

I don't quite understand how you seriously don't notice such simple manipulations.

"Manipulations." is a very strong word considering you had user's change Kengan pages on your own accord. That's verbatim the definition of Manipulation.

In my calculation, I quoted King's calc, stating the dry facts of his mistakes. Lordy started commenting on my calculation with the words that I don't understand what I'm saying and I'm talking nonsense.

"Dry facts." Yeah no, you didn't state any dry facts. Nobody here aside from Life agrees with you and even he doesn't fully agree with you. Stop acting as if your word is law, again this is not how a debate works.

 

[LordGinSama]

You can see in the scene that the crown is not affected

And the full crown isn't shown either, again it's being affected and if a tree is dropped then damage is definitely going to be done to the crown. That's just basic tree cutting physics, branches, twigs and leaves will fall off after they hit the ground.

Visibly not 60 meters, that's against anything I've ever seen about a tree. You are also able to see the whole size without difficulty. The perspective here is consistentas as well

The perspective definitely isn't consistent unless you think Niko is about the same size as those tree's.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Personally, dust method or not, I think it makes sense to scale to the mountain. It's not so far away that scaling to the mountain would be unviable.

 

[NikHelton]

I saw your argument with him under your calc. He was aggressive, yeah, but you were also deliberately antagonizing him and making sarcastic comments like "hey, you're the smartest right" and you're still doubling down on that sarcasm with how you responded to me saying "but of course you can close your eyes to this." It's not a good look.

I can speak politely and respectfully, only if it is mutual.
And in this case, you should make the same warning for Lord.

Plus, I would be grateful if you, as a member of calc, commented on my calculation in the blog and expressed your opinion here. This is not sarcasm, I would really appreciate it.
Later, I can give a number of other arguments that refute such a high level of verse. To begin with, I can quote a moment where the author directly indicates that fighting on the bare ground for a character who has thin skin promises damage. Because the pebbles can cut his skin. This same character has been holding Ohma for a very long time, which scales from 8-B to 7-C.
The same Tokita Niko receives damage from shots from small-caliber weapons, redirecting them to the side.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Because the pebbles can cut his skin

Kengan char 10-A gg

 

[LordGinSama]

Niko wasn't damaged by small caliber rounds, he straight up tanked them and reflected them. That's like me saying Goku is rock level because Krillin rocked his shit with a rock, or that Baki characters are shot gun level since guns can pierce their skin.


Also Sandro's never intended for these characters to be wall level as your insinuating you made that up. Have you ever even read any of his work? He's very disconnected from reality such as First of the Seeker and Kengan. Also we practice death of the Author here so Author intent is usually meaningless unless it's direct word of God.