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Kengan revision
- Thread starter NikHelton
- Start date
- 16,923
- 11,978
Ah okay then just say that next time. Anyway I'll be making mine now that I finished the CRT, I'll message you when I'm done then we can both post our arguments at the same time.
The reply should be done later tonight since it's gonna be a big post.
The reply should be done later tonight since it's gonna be a big post.
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- 11,978
Mine'll be the same.
Like I said, I don't disagree with your scaling as a whole, there's only 2 things I primarily disagree with so this shouldn't be that big of an issue either way.
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Actually I'll post my rely tomorrow. For now i wanna focus on gathering scans for my current CRT for tonight.
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For me it's currently 6:14 PM. So EST for me.
Not at all, it's a CRT to revise Trigun. Said CRT involves AP ( Tier 2 scaling is always a pain.) so I'll need to take my time with it so I don't get anything wrong there. The manga itself is also pretty big so it'll take me all night to gather all the scans I need.
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- 11,978
It's currently 1:49 PM, I'm waiting for the Trigun CRT to wrap up so I can apply the changes then I'll drop the comment here.
So most likely sometime close to 4-5 PM
- 2,832
- 1,578
- Thread starter
- #294
First of all, I would like to discuss the 15x multiplier and why it works. Oddly enough, himself used this in his past threads.
According to Jin, "the 5-fold multiplier refers to the entire power of Wakatsuki, including his kicks," which is fundamentally not true since this is Ohma's statement made on the basis of the received punches.
All the previous blows that Ohma's took left only bruises and paralyzed the muscles. However, this was also a consequence of several blows, that is, it had a cumulative effect.
At the same time, all the kicks had a much greater effect. One of them completely breaks the bones in Ohma's hand. The second one almost ruptures his internal organs and could be fatal. This is already enough to notice that there is a difference in strength between these blows and it is big. Ohma's literally withstands a blow, which exceeds its durability by 15 times and we can either count this as an outlier, or as an incredible resistance of the characters of the verse and take this factor into account in the battles on the wiki.
Moreover, this idea was voiced by Jin himself, although just a couple of messages above he said that using these multipliers does not work. However. In his first thread, he scales Waka from Ohma's himself, first using a multiplier of 5, and then 3 times. That is, 15 times.
In the same thread, he commented on the moment when Ohma's withstood a blow exceeding its durability by 15 times.
So 15x scaling is still reasonable and makes sense.
Now let's discuss the scaling of Fei regarding Wakatsuki.
In its basic form, Fei inflicts minor damage to Waka, while avoiding all his attacks in every possible way.
One of the attacks causes Wakatsuki to have a nosebleed. By the way, Murabuchi was able to cause more serious bleeding, who had barely withstood several random Waka attacks before, but in the end was Oneshoted. This is me saying that bleeding from the nose is not something serious and even characters who are not able to withstand 1 serious Takeshi blow can do it. By the way, this is a developed technique of Ohma's times of Asura, which Fei increased in the number of strokes. The blow is demonstrated as one of the most destructive in the arsenal of Nico-style users and is definitely not accidental.
The next blow causes redness on the face and does not affect the Tiger's condition in any way at all.
I also have 1 embarrassing frame where Fei brings Waka to her knees with a combination of water and fire kata. However, the impact only pushed Takeshi a few meters away, causing him to fall. Judging by the hoarse breathing and where the blow was struck, all the damage was done to the solar plexus, which explains to us how Fei was able to force Waka to kneel. Blows that make breathing difficult do their job.
On the next page, Fei applies a combination of adamantine and fiery kata to Wakatsuki, which Takeshi surprisingly withstands much better than the previous one. "Surprisingly," because the adamantine kata increases the rigidity of the body, and the fiery one is aimed at the attack power, which makes the technique more destructive. However, Waka is only pushed back able to cope with the force, but not with the speed of this technique. At the same moment, he just takes it upon himself, just to carry out his maneuver. This is more than enough to understand that this does not pose a serious danger for him, except that he may be thrown out of the ring.
When it comes to Fei taking Tiger attacks, he constantly dispels them with a combination of redirection kata and water kata. However, as soon as he took the blow, he became sick and coughed up blood. Moreover, it wasn't even the full impact of the Wakatsuki strike. The water kata still leveled and dispersed the damage, just made it twice as bad.
Even after taking a weakened attack, Fei already looks exhausted enough and admits that Waka completely suppressed Nico-style with his brute force alone.
Therefore, he has to use the form of a Divine Demon to win.
I'm not saying Fei didn't pose a threat in basic form to Wakatsuki. Takeshi himself recognized the danger of enemy techniques and considered him an opponent of his level. But it's all about technique and speed. Wakatsuki could only respond to twenty Fei strikes with 1 of his own, which equalized their chances. However, Fei cannot physically approach the Tiger in any way. He can only win by exhausting the opponent, dodging all his attacks. And also he is not able to take enemy attacks and continue the fight at the same level after that.
I think after this, the question about their parity in the basic form disappears.
Now we will move on to the most striking part of this dispute, regarding the "superiority" of the Divine Demon Fei over Wakatsuki. This form is a new level of comparison with the Advance technique and the level of increase in forces surpasses even Removal.
With his awakening, Wangfang meets Takeshi with blows with all his might. The first one was applied to the solar plexus and strongly pushed the Tiger back. The second one almost threw Wakatsuki out of the Arena and we can't determine his hit point. However, presumably this is the same case, since we do not see fresh blood on the face.
But! But even after that, we have a statement from Waka that he is still superior to the opponent in physical strength, but their gap in speed has only increased. The difference in speed has increased so much that Fei perceives Wakatsuki as a static image and can inflict an incredible hail of blows on him when he can't do anything.
Blows, each of which is dangerous, but still does not cause critical damage.
In his comment, Jin says that Fei surpasses Waka by several times at least, and possibly by several dozen.
The second version is supported by a frame where we are told that the heartbeat rate of Fei has increased several tens times. But we have no reason to believe that the force increases in proportion to the multiplicity of the heartbeat. We know that Ohma's heartbeat accelerates 4-5 times with the full release of Adwance, but due to this, its speed increases only twice, later accelerating with an even greater release of force. There is no question of any proportionality.
Jin says that he did not suggest using a 30-40-fold multiplier at all, but in any case he devoted one paragraph to this, accompanying "Do what you will with this information, see ya.
.", so we cannot assume that he did not say this.
Thus, Jin implies that Fei outperforms Takeshi by at least 9-12 and probably 30-40 times, which would actually allow him to finish the fight with one blow. As it was in all the battles with Wakatsuki, however, it happened with his opponents.
But what do we see?
Fei beats.
And beats.
And beats.
And more.
And more.
Many times. At one point, the judges themselves lost count of how many punches Waka took.
If the difference in strength was really that great, then one blow to the back of the head would be enough for Waka to die or at least lose a consciousness.
Many of his attacks are aimed at the jaw, the back of the head, the neck. Also, a number of blows are directed to the liver and spleen. He hits specifically at particularly vulnerable places to inflict critical damage, but Waka does not fall. Moreover, Wangfang compares the opponent to a boss from a video game, who has a colossal level of health and who has to be taken with exhaustion with caution, because he can still defeat you with a few blows and inflict critical damage so easily, as if it means nothing to him. Fei is so unsure if his strength is enough at the moment that he starts thinking about using even more strength, but does not do so for fear of losing control.
It is also worth noting that even in this form Fei does not risk taking Waka blows, although with a difference of 9-40 times he should not pay attention to them. It happens here, here and here. We see this both in the case of simple blows, when he dodges at the last moment, and in the case of Blast Core, although Wangfang did not know about the strength of the technique and hardly believed that this blow was much stronger than the others.
Takeshi takes the blows for the whole fight, adhering to the tactics of "wait and attack at the right moment", however, this would not make any sense if his opponent surpassed him many times. In a battle with an opponent of equal strength, but superior in strength, Julius, Wakatsuki quickly switched from the usual tactics of tank strikes to techniques and strategies, because he understood that he would not be able to withstand this damage for a long time. However, he could afford to be a punching bag in a fight with Fei, because the enemy's blows did not carry such serious damage for him.
Wakatsuki does not want to lose in physical strength, so he takes Fei in a grip and completely suppressing physically, forcing him to release the full limit of the Divine Demon to resist this. And only in this form, which can live literally half a minute, he surpasses Waka in power, breaking out of the grip and finishing him off with the last blow. Finishing off an exhausted opponent. Even here there is no question of superiority in 9-40 times and the battle of 8-A vs Low 7-C/ 7-C.
Oh, yes. Ohma is also declared a more dangerous and threatening opponent than Fei, so at least he and Lolong should scale.
According to Jin, "the 5-fold multiplier refers to the entire power of Wakatsuki, including his kicks," which is fundamentally not true since this is Ohma's statement made on the basis of the received punches.
All the previous blows that Ohma's took left only bruises and paralyzed the muscles. However, this was also a consequence of several blows, that is, it had a cumulative effect.
At the same time, all the kicks had a much greater effect. One of them completely breaks the bones in Ohma's hand. The second one almost ruptures his internal organs and could be fatal. This is already enough to notice that there is a difference in strength between these blows and it is big. Ohma's literally withstands a blow, which exceeds its durability by 15 times and we can either count this as an outlier, or as an incredible resistance of the characters of the verse and take this factor into account in the battles on the wiki.
Moreover, this idea was voiced by Jin himself, although just a couple of messages above he said that using these multipliers does not work. However. In his first thread, he scales Waka from Ohma's himself, first using a multiplier of 5, and then 3 times. That is, 15 times.
In the same thread, he commented on the moment when Ohma's withstood a blow exceeding its durability by 15 times.
So 15x scaling is still reasonable and makes sense.
Now let's discuss the scaling of Fei regarding Wakatsuki.
In its basic form, Fei inflicts minor damage to Waka, while avoiding all his attacks in every possible way.
One of the attacks causes Wakatsuki to have a nosebleed. By the way, Murabuchi was able to cause more serious bleeding, who had barely withstood several random Waka attacks before, but in the end was Oneshoted. This is me saying that bleeding from the nose is not something serious and even characters who are not able to withstand 1 serious Takeshi blow can do it. By the way, this is a developed technique of Ohma's times of Asura, which Fei increased in the number of strokes. The blow is demonstrated as one of the most destructive in the arsenal of Nico-style users and is definitely not accidental.
The next blow causes redness on the face and does not affect the Tiger's condition in any way at all.
I also have 1 embarrassing frame where Fei brings Waka to her knees with a combination of water and fire kata. However, the impact only pushed Takeshi a few meters away, causing him to fall. Judging by the hoarse breathing and where the blow was struck, all the damage was done to the solar plexus, which explains to us how Fei was able to force Waka to kneel. Blows that make breathing difficult do their job.
On the next page, Fei applies a combination of adamantine and fiery kata to Wakatsuki, which Takeshi surprisingly withstands much better than the previous one. "Surprisingly," because the adamantine kata increases the rigidity of the body, and the fiery one is aimed at the attack power, which makes the technique more destructive. However, Waka is only pushed back able to cope with the force, but not with the speed of this technique. At the same moment, he just takes it upon himself, just to carry out his maneuver. This is more than enough to understand that this does not pose a serious danger for him, except that he may be thrown out of the ring.
When it comes to Fei taking Tiger attacks, he constantly dispels them with a combination of redirection kata and water kata. However, as soon as he took the blow, he became sick and coughed up blood. Moreover, it wasn't even the full impact of the Wakatsuki strike. The water kata still leveled and dispersed the damage, just made it twice as bad.
Even after taking a weakened attack, Fei already looks exhausted enough and admits that Waka completely suppressed Nico-style with his brute force alone.
Therefore, he has to use the form of a Divine Demon to win.
I'm not saying Fei didn't pose a threat in basic form to Wakatsuki. Takeshi himself recognized the danger of enemy techniques and considered him an opponent of his level. But it's all about technique and speed. Wakatsuki could only respond to twenty Fei strikes with 1 of his own, which equalized their chances. However, Fei cannot physically approach the Tiger in any way. He can only win by exhausting the opponent, dodging all his attacks. And also he is not able to take enemy attacks and continue the fight at the same level after that.
I think after this, the question about their parity in the basic form disappears.
Now we will move on to the most striking part of this dispute, regarding the "superiority" of the Divine Demon Fei over Wakatsuki. This form is a new level of comparison with the Advance technique and the level of increase in forces surpasses even Removal.
With his awakening, Wangfang meets Takeshi with blows with all his might. The first one was applied to the solar plexus and strongly pushed the Tiger back. The second one almost threw Wakatsuki out of the Arena and we can't determine his hit point. However, presumably this is the same case, since we do not see fresh blood on the face.
But! But even after that, we have a statement from Waka that he is still superior to the opponent in physical strength, but their gap in speed has only increased. The difference in speed has increased so much that Fei perceives Wakatsuki as a static image and can inflict an incredible hail of blows on him when he can't do anything.
Blows, each of which is dangerous, but still does not cause critical damage.
In his comment, Jin says that Fei surpasses Waka by several times at least, and possibly by several dozen.
The second version is supported by a frame where we are told that the heartbeat rate of Fei has increased several tens times. But we have no reason to believe that the force increases in proportion to the multiplicity of the heartbeat. We know that Ohma's heartbeat accelerates 4-5 times with the full release of Adwance, but due to this, its speed increases only twice, later accelerating with an even greater release of force. There is no question of any proportionality.
Jin says that he did not suggest using a 30-40-fold multiplier at all, but in any case he devoted one paragraph to this, accompanying "Do what you will with this information, see ya.
.", so we cannot assume that he did not say this.Thus, Jin implies that Fei outperforms Takeshi by at least 9-12 and probably 30-40 times, which would actually allow him to finish the fight with one blow. As it was in all the battles with Wakatsuki, however, it happened with his opponents.
But what do we see?
Fei beats.
And beats.
And beats.
And more.
And more.
Many times. At one point, the judges themselves lost count of how many punches Waka took.
If the difference in strength was really that great, then one blow to the back of the head would be enough for Waka to die or at least lose a consciousness.
Many of his attacks are aimed at the jaw, the back of the head, the neck. Also, a number of blows are directed to the liver and spleen. He hits specifically at particularly vulnerable places to inflict critical damage, but Waka does not fall. Moreover, Wangfang compares the opponent to a boss from a video game, who has a colossal level of health and who has to be taken with exhaustion with caution, because he can still defeat you with a few blows and inflict critical damage so easily, as if it means nothing to him. Fei is so unsure if his strength is enough at the moment that he starts thinking about using even more strength, but does not do so for fear of losing control.
It is also worth noting that even in this form Fei does not risk taking Waka blows, although with a difference of 9-40 times he should not pay attention to them. It happens here, here and here. We see this both in the case of simple blows, when he dodges at the last moment, and in the case of Blast Core, although Wangfang did not know about the strength of the technique and hardly believed that this blow was much stronger than the others.
Takeshi takes the blows for the whole fight, adhering to the tactics of "wait and attack at the right moment", however, this would not make any sense if his opponent surpassed him many times. In a battle with an opponent of equal strength, but superior in strength, Julius, Wakatsuki quickly switched from the usual tactics of tank strikes to techniques and strategies, because he understood that he would not be able to withstand this damage for a long time. However, he could afford to be a punching bag in a fight with Fei, because the enemy's blows did not carry such serious damage for him.
Wakatsuki does not want to lose in physical strength, so he takes Fei in a grip and completely suppressing physically, forcing him to release the full limit of the Divine Demon to resist this. And only in this form, which can live literally half a minute, he surpasses Waka in power, breaking out of the grip and finishing him off with the last blow. Finishing off an exhausted opponent. Even here there is no question of superiority in 9-40 times and the battle of 8-A vs Low 7-C/ 7-C.
Oh, yes. Ohma is also declared a more dangerous and threatening opponent than Fei, so at least he and Lolong should scale.
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Alright so now we can get started and finish this up once and more all since arguing on this topic is extremely tiring at the point.
The 15x multiplier, and why it doesn't work.
Now this'll be my first opening argument and hopefully the final. This is one of the only 2 things I'd disagree with Nik's scaling, this and how Fei's Divine Demon is being treated in his eyes.
First things first, as I said above using a 15x figure is unsupported and against wiki rules due to it essentially being calc stacking.
First of all, Wakatsuki's "power." being 5x Ohma's durability refers to Wakatsuki strength in general, not just his punches or else this would have been specified as Sandro and Daro are very detailed when it comes to statements like this.
To determine what this statement actually means then we'd need to look at the definition of "power." especially when used in a context like this.
1a(1): ability to act or produce an effect
(2): ability to get extra-base hits
(3): capacity for being acted upon or undergoing an effect
b: legal or official authority, capacity, or right
2a: possession of control, authority, or influence over others
b: one having such powerspecifically : a sovereign state
c: a controlling group : ESTABLISHMENT —often used in the phrase the powers that be
darchaic : a force of armed men
echiefly dialectal : a large number or quantity
3a: physical might
It's evidently referring to definition 3A: Physical might. Shall we also take a look at the definition of what Physical Might means?
might
noun
Definition of might (Entry 2 of 2)
1a: the power, authority, or resources wielded (as by an individual or group)
b(1): bodily strength
(2): the power, energy, or intensity of which one is capable
All of the following definition here are about the power generated from the body as a whole. Once more, if Ohma was referring to Wakatsuki's punches being 5x his own durability then the statement would be "If my Indestructible is a 10 then his punches would be a 50!" but not, the statement uses the term "power." which means physical might, might meaning bodily power that one posses. Once again, if the statement were referring to Wakatsuki's punches then Ohma would have used a different term, Ohma being the same fighter that's extremely analytical with his analysis.
Secondly, Ohma's durability has no business scaling to Wakatsuki. Wakatsuki was breaking his bones, turning his muscles into mush, and overpowered Ohma's Redirection Kata casually. Ohma's durability was being bypassed, him managing to endure said strikes is a feat of endurance and stamina, not a feat of durability. Now Nik is stating that Ohma's durability should scale to some extent, however I'd have to disagree vehemently for obvious reasons, that being that Nik is saying Fei's durability shouldn't scale to Wakatsuki's AP, despite Fei taking much less damage than Ohma did even without using the Redirection and Water Kata.
Scaling Ohma's durability to Wakatsuki's AP which was destroying muscles, tendons and fragmenting his bones and taking out his legs with kicks that have little to no momentum behind them on the basis that Ohma continued is the equivalent of me attempting to scale humans who've survived gunshot wounds to the KE of the bullet that shot then because the bullet didn't kill them. No, the durability of said human was bypassed and caused significant injuries. Durability cannot be scaled in such a way.
As for Wakatsuki's kick, the main reason why it injured Ohma to that extent was the fact that Wakatsuki aimed at one of the weakest points in the body, that being the liver which cannot absorb shock well. Aiming at the liver and kidneys is bound to cause serious injury due to how fragile and sensitive said organs are, hence why even Koga is able to drop the much heavier Orca with a Cresent Moon Kick to his liver.
Wakatsuki never almost broke Ohma's arm with a kick either, that was a direct point blank knee bash. Your knee is obviously going to cause a lot more blunt damage than a punch or a kick, hence why they use them in Muay Thai. So Nik is also wrong in that regard as well considering that wasn't even a kick but rather a knee blow.
The reason why Ohma almost had his liver ruptured was because of how the liver works and how it absorbs shock. This isn't something that can be attributed to Wakatsuki's sheer strength, the majority of the damage sustained from that blow was due to the liver being incredibly weak. To say otherwise is being blatantly ignorant of how human anatomy works.
Secondly, my words in Nik's reply with all due respect are being purposely misconstrued. It's twisting my words to the utmost, what I did was take the figure gained from the stated 5x multiplier, found the figure of that and then used a 3x figure on top of that value. 15x makes no sense, it's not a direct multiplier that stacks on top of each other. It's a 3x multiplier due to me using said 3x multiplier on the yield of Wakatsuki's standard AP. Once more wiki rules doesn't allow this, and argument from this is argument based upon sheer semantics.
Fei WangFang the Toad and the Advance Mechanisms
Now this'll be technically two arguments summed into one.
First of all, a lot of the arguments of Fei not scaling is sheer downplay. Nik is using the example of Murobuchi giving Wakatsuki a nose bleed with a flying knee, which is his strongest attack which Nik failed to mention for whatever reason. And even this didn't injure Wakatsuki much nor did it even cause him pain. The nose bleed from Murobuchi is being very much overblown by Nik as well as it wasn't much of a nose bleed at all.
Murobuchi needed to use his strongest attack, using all his body weight focused onto his knee to even give Wakatsuki a minor nose bleed. Fei on the other hand could do it with a standard attack, and even Ohma was considered for Wakatsuki and we see Wakatsuki in much more discomfort. Using Murobuchi as an example only serves to intentionally downplay Fei's performance while failing to provide proper context.
Fei's Tomahawk Kick also caused Wakatsuki to fall back, flung his head back and left a bad bruise on the Wild Tiger's face. Even the announcer states "that must of hurt!!" meaning the kick did cause damage but as we know Wakatsuki has the endurance of a God.
A reoccurring issue with Nik's arguments that he's failing to provide actual context to his argument such as Flashing Steel Blast not damaging Waka. The point of that attack was to get a ring out, not as a direct attack on Wakatsuki.
And to say that Fei only took Wakatsuki's blows with the Water and Redirection Kata is inherently wrong as he's been shown blocking Wakatsuki's strikes without either Kata with only light damage.
Hell even with the Kata's halved all Wakatsuki did was manage to make Fei cough up spit and a minuscule amount of blood, and this only happened because Waka kneed him in the Solar Plexus. Which i find ironic how Nik failed to mention this, considering he was using Solar Plexus attacks to discount Fei's Obliteration attack which aimed at the same place.
No matter how you cut it, Fei is able to damage Wakatsuki in base and to some extent take his attacks. I'm not saying Base Fei is 100% comparable but he should most certainly downscale.
Also about the Advance, the heart is the source of the user's power, and the more the heart beats the stronger the user becomes, hence why Ohma's heartbeat becomes faster and louder. All the Advance is the user overclocking their heart beat rate to increase speed and torque.
Divine Demon absolutely scales above Wakatsuki in terms of AP and Striking Strength, he was getting rag dolled the entire fight by Divine Demon. Literally what fight did you read because Wakatsuki was getting his shit kicked in. And this is all before Fei used maximum output. Wakatsuki only got up because of his endurance. Wakatsuki is the same person who can continue fighting after having half his face shaved off, continue to fight after getting stabbed in the neck, and getting Demonsbaned in the jaw, which reflected his attack with much more force than he attacked Ohma with. Even Fei's analogy about the Video Game boss is referring to vitality, not durability. We see that Fei is dealing major damage to Wakatsuki as I posted above, it's the fact that Wakatsuki eats damage and injuries like they mean nothing.
Also no, Wakatsuki was absolutely wrong on him having more power than Divine Demon Fei. This is only stated once by Wakatsuki, it's stated more than once that Divine Demon was overpowering Wakatsuki, making Divine Demon being stronger than Waka more consistent rather than vice-versa. Divine Demon was causing more damage to Wakatsuki than even Julius was during the KAT. Julius was never able to send Wakatsuki flying with basic strikes, Fei has feats and statements of overpowering Wakatsuki several times while using Divine Demon. The only time Wakatsuki ever had the physical advantage was when he was grappling, which is lifting strength, not attack Potency. In terms of AP, Divine Demon had the edge whereas Wakatsuki had the edge in LS.
Also The Advance doesn't increase durability, it only increases speed and the striking strength. Fei not taking hits from Wakatsuki means nothing here.
Also Lolong's statement on Ohma being more dangerous is due to Ohma's skill and intelligence. "Between an opponent who wields immense power haphazardly and someone with a tenth of that strength but mastered it, I find the latter to be more a threat.' How Nik missed that clear statement is beyond me.
TL;DR: The majority of Nik's arguments fail to provide proper context, is full of blatant misconceptions and uses a lot of false equivalents to undermine actual feats of characters.
This'll be my last comment and now it'll be up to the user's of this wiki on who they agree with.
The 15x multiplier, and why it doesn't work.
Now this'll be my first opening argument and hopefully the final. This is one of the only 2 things I'd disagree with Nik's scaling, this and how Fei's Divine Demon is being treated in his eyes.
First things first, as I said above using a 15x figure is unsupported and against wiki rules due to it essentially being calc stacking.
First of all, Wakatsuki's "power." being 5x Ohma's durability refers to Wakatsuki strength in general, not just his punches or else this would have been specified as Sandro and Daro are very detailed when it comes to statements like this.
To determine what this statement actually means then we'd need to look at the definition of "power." especially when used in a context like this.
Definition of power
(Entry 1 of 3)1a(1): ability to act or produce an effect
(2): ability to get extra-base hits
(3): capacity for being acted upon or undergoing an effect
b: legal or official authority, capacity, or right
2a: possession of control, authority, or influence over others
b: one having such powerspecifically : a sovereign state
c: a controlling group : ESTABLISHMENT —often used in the phrase the powers that be
darchaic : a force of armed men
echiefly dialectal : a large number or quantity
3a: physical might
It's evidently referring to definition 3A: Physical might. Shall we also take a look at the definition of what Physical Might means?
might
noun
Definition of might (Entry 2 of 2)
1a: the power, authority, or resources wielded (as by an individual or group)
b(1): bodily strength
(2): the power, energy, or intensity of which one is capable
All of the following definition here are about the power generated from the body as a whole. Once more, if Ohma was referring to Wakatsuki's punches being 5x his own durability then the statement would be "If my Indestructible is a 10 then his punches would be a 50!" but not, the statement uses the term "power." which means physical might, might meaning bodily power that one posses. Once again, if the statement were referring to Wakatsuki's punches then Ohma would have used a different term, Ohma being the same fighter that's extremely analytical with his analysis.
Secondly, Ohma's durability has no business scaling to Wakatsuki. Wakatsuki was breaking his bones, turning his muscles into mush, and overpowered Ohma's Redirection Kata casually. Ohma's durability was being bypassed, him managing to endure said strikes is a feat of endurance and stamina, not a feat of durability. Now Nik is stating that Ohma's durability should scale to some extent, however I'd have to disagree vehemently for obvious reasons, that being that Nik is saying Fei's durability shouldn't scale to Wakatsuki's AP, despite Fei taking much less damage than Ohma did even without using the Redirection and Water Kata.
Scaling Ohma's durability to Wakatsuki's AP which was destroying muscles, tendons and fragmenting his bones and taking out his legs with kicks that have little to no momentum behind them on the basis that Ohma continued is the equivalent of me attempting to scale humans who've survived gunshot wounds to the KE of the bullet that shot then because the bullet didn't kill them. No, the durability of said human was bypassed and caused significant injuries. Durability cannot be scaled in such a way.
As for Wakatsuki's kick, the main reason why it injured Ohma to that extent was the fact that Wakatsuki aimed at one of the weakest points in the body, that being the liver which cannot absorb shock well. Aiming at the liver and kidneys is bound to cause serious injury due to how fragile and sensitive said organs are, hence why even Koga is able to drop the much heavier Orca with a Cresent Moon Kick to his liver.
Wakatsuki never almost broke Ohma's arm with a kick either, that was a direct point blank knee bash. Your knee is obviously going to cause a lot more blunt damage than a punch or a kick, hence why they use them in Muay Thai. So Nik is also wrong in that regard as well considering that wasn't even a kick but rather a knee blow.
The reason why Ohma almost had his liver ruptured was because of how the liver works and how it absorbs shock. This isn't something that can be attributed to Wakatsuki's sheer strength, the majority of the damage sustained from that blow was due to the liver being incredibly weak. To say otherwise is being blatantly ignorant of how human anatomy works.
Secondly, my words in Nik's reply with all due respect are being purposely misconstrued. It's twisting my words to the utmost, what I did was take the figure gained from the stated 5x multiplier, found the figure of that and then used a 3x figure on top of that value. 15x makes no sense, it's not a direct multiplier that stacks on top of each other. It's a 3x multiplier due to me using said 3x multiplier on the yield of Wakatsuki's standard AP. Once more wiki rules doesn't allow this, and argument from this is argument based upon sheer semantics.
Fei WangFang the Toad and the Advance Mechanisms
Now this'll be technically two arguments summed into one.
First of all, a lot of the arguments of Fei not scaling is sheer downplay. Nik is using the example of Murobuchi giving Wakatsuki a nose bleed with a flying knee, which is his strongest attack which Nik failed to mention for whatever reason. And even this didn't injure Wakatsuki much nor did it even cause him pain. The nose bleed from Murobuchi is being very much overblown by Nik as well as it wasn't much of a nose bleed at all.
Murobuchi needed to use his strongest attack, using all his body weight focused onto his knee to even give Wakatsuki a minor nose bleed. Fei on the other hand could do it with a standard attack, and even Ohma was considered for Wakatsuki and we see Wakatsuki in much more discomfort. Using Murobuchi as an example only serves to intentionally downplay Fei's performance while failing to provide proper context.
Fei's Tomahawk Kick also caused Wakatsuki to fall back, flung his head back and left a bad bruise on the Wild Tiger's face. Even the announcer states "that must of hurt!!" meaning the kick did cause damage but as we know Wakatsuki has the endurance of a God.
A reoccurring issue with Nik's arguments that he's failing to provide actual context to his argument such as Flashing Steel Blast not damaging Waka. The point of that attack was to get a ring out, not as a direct attack on Wakatsuki.
And to say that Fei only took Wakatsuki's blows with the Water and Redirection Kata is inherently wrong as he's been shown blocking Wakatsuki's strikes without either Kata with only light damage.
Hell even with the Kata's halved all Wakatsuki did was manage to make Fei cough up spit and a minuscule amount of blood, and this only happened because Waka kneed him in the Solar Plexus. Which i find ironic how Nik failed to mention this, considering he was using Solar Plexus attacks to discount Fei's Obliteration attack which aimed at the same place.
No matter how you cut it, Fei is able to damage Wakatsuki in base and to some extent take his attacks. I'm not saying Base Fei is 100% comparable but he should most certainly downscale.
Also about the Advance, the heart is the source of the user's power, and the more the heart beats the stronger the user becomes, hence why Ohma's heartbeat becomes faster and louder. All the Advance is the user overclocking their heart beat rate to increase speed and torque.
Divine Demon absolutely scales above Wakatsuki in terms of AP and Striking Strength, he was getting rag dolled the entire fight by Divine Demon. Literally what fight did you read because Wakatsuki was getting his shit kicked in. And this is all before Fei used maximum output. Wakatsuki only got up because of his endurance. Wakatsuki is the same person who can continue fighting after having half his face shaved off, continue to fight after getting stabbed in the neck, and getting Demonsbaned in the jaw, which reflected his attack with much more force than he attacked Ohma with. Even Fei's analogy about the Video Game boss is referring to vitality, not durability. We see that Fei is dealing major damage to Wakatsuki as I posted above, it's the fact that Wakatsuki eats damage and injuries like they mean nothing.
Also no, Wakatsuki was absolutely wrong on him having more power than Divine Demon Fei. This is only stated once by Wakatsuki, it's stated more than once that Divine Demon was overpowering Wakatsuki, making Divine Demon being stronger than Waka more consistent rather than vice-versa. Divine Demon was causing more damage to Wakatsuki than even Julius was during the KAT. Julius was never able to send Wakatsuki flying with basic strikes, Fei has feats and statements of overpowering Wakatsuki several times while using Divine Demon. The only time Wakatsuki ever had the physical advantage was when he was grappling, which is lifting strength, not attack Potency. In terms of AP, Divine Demon had the edge whereas Wakatsuki had the edge in LS.
Also The Advance doesn't increase durability, it only increases speed and the striking strength. Fei not taking hits from Wakatsuki means nothing here.
Also Lolong's statement on Ohma being more dangerous is due to Ohma's skill and intelligence. "Between an opponent who wields immense power haphazardly and someone with a tenth of that strength but mastered it, I find the latter to be more a threat.' How Nik missed that clear statement is beyond me.
TL;DR: The majority of Nik's arguments fail to provide proper context, is full of blatant misconceptions and uses a lot of false equivalents to undermine actual feats of characters.
This'll be my last comment and now it'll be up to the user's of this wiki on who they agree with.
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I agree with gin
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By the way, no more rebuttals from me or Nik. This is the end of our argument, we will let the user's determine which one of us is corrected based on our last comments. I'm not gonna sit here and go back and forth with you all day on this topic with all due respect.
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Both Nik and Gin make solid points but I think I’m gonna agree with Gin here
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Don't know much about the Kenganverse, but Gin seems to make sense here
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I’m not knowledgeable on this verse, but I was asked to comment and the scans provided seem to give me enough context where I think I can give a well informed opinion.
I’m siding with Gin here for two primary factors: the video game analogy scan and the narrative emphasis on Waka’s stamina. Personally, I feel the video game analogy scan puts the nail in the coffin, solidifying Fei scaling. Health bar is a measure of stamina and how much vitality you have left before you’re “defeated/killed/KO’d/etc”, to go through someone’s health bar you have to inflict damage. The fact the health bar wasn’t anywhere close to full heavily implies that Waka was taking damage from Fei, which in turn indicates Fei scales. Furthermore, every time Fei beats down Waka and Waka is still in the fight, emphasis is placed on how Waka can keep getting back up. I’d like to draw a minor analogy between Rocky vs Ivan (from the Rocky movies lol), Rocky is clearly outclassed by Ivan as made obvious by Ivan’s superior power but is able to go the distance and fight due to Rocky’s vastly superior stamina. Now the parallels aren’t all one to one, but the point is you don’t have to be stronger than someone to be able to get back up repetitively, you just need immense endurance. For those reasons, I believe Gin has a more sound argument.
I’m siding with Gin here for two primary factors: the video game analogy scan and the narrative emphasis on Waka’s stamina. Personally, I feel the video game analogy scan puts the nail in the coffin, solidifying Fei scaling. Health bar is a measure of stamina and how much vitality you have left before you’re “defeated/killed/KO’d/etc”, to go through someone’s health bar you have to inflict damage. The fact the health bar wasn’t anywhere close to full heavily implies that Waka was taking damage from Fei, which in turn indicates Fei scales. Furthermore, every time Fei beats down Waka and Waka is still in the fight, emphasis is placed on how Waka can keep getting back up. I’d like to draw a minor analogy between Rocky vs Ivan (from the Rocky movies lol), Rocky is clearly outclassed by Ivan as made obvious by Ivan’s superior power but is able to go the distance and fight due to Rocky’s vastly superior stamina. Now the parallels aren’t all one to one, but the point is you don’t have to be stronger than someone to be able to get back up repetitively, you just need immense endurance. For those reasons, I believe Gin has a more sound argument.
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Gin's looks more plausible
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From what I understand, Fei and Waka seem rather relative, but Waka has way more health. So, it’s not that Waka outscales Fei, but rather Waka needs to land less hits to drain Fei’s stamina than the other way around.
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Divine Demon is a glass canon, his heart is overclocked and has bulging veins all over his body, which is why Waka kept trying to Blast Core him in the heart.
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First of all, I would like to discuss the 15x multiplier and why it works. Oddly enough, himself used this in his past threads.
According to Jin, "the 5-fold multiplier refers to the entire power of Wakatsuki, including his kicks," which is fundamentally not true since this is Ohma's statement made on the basis of the received punches.
All the previous blows that Ohma's took left only bruises and paralyzed the muscles. However, this was also a consequence of several blows, that is, it had a cumulative effect.
At the same time, all the kicks had a much greater effect. One of them completely breaks the bones in Ohma's hand. The second one almost ruptures his internal organs and could be fatal. This is already enough to notice that there is a difference in strength between these blows and it is big. Ohma's literally withstands a blow, which exceeds its durability by 15 times and we can either count this as an outlier, or as an incredible resistance of the characters of the verse and take this factor into account in the battles on the wiki.
Moreover, this idea was voiced by Jin himself, although just a couple of messages above he said that using these multipliers does not work. However. In his first thread, he scales Waka from Ohma's himself, first using a multiplier of 5, and then 3 times. That is, 15 times.
In the same thread, he commented on the moment when Ohma's withstood a blow exceeding its durability by 15 times.
So 15x scaling is still reasonable and makes sense.
Now let's discuss the scaling of Fei regarding Wakatsuki.
In its basic form, Fei inflicts minor damage to Waka, while avoiding all his attacks in every possible way.
One of the attacks causes Wakatsuki to have a nosebleed. By the way, Murabuchi was able to cause more serious bleeding, who had barely withstood several random Waka attacks before, but in the end was Oneshoted. This is me saying that bleeding from the nose is not something serious and even characters who are not able to withstand 1 serious Takeshi blow can do it. By the way, this is a developed technique of Ohma's times of Asura, which Fei increased in the number of strokes. The blow is demonstrated as one of the most destructive in the arsenal of Nico-style users and is definitely not accidental.
The next blow causes redness on the face and does not affect the Tiger's condition in any way at all.
I also have 1 embarrassing frame where Fei brings Waka to her knees with a combination of water and fire kata. However, the impact only pushed Takeshi a few meters away, causing him to fall. Judging by the hoarse breathing and where the blow was struck, all the damage was done to the solar plexus, which explains to us how Fei was able to force Waka to kneel. Blows that make breathing difficult do their job.
On the next page, Fei applies a combination of adamantine and fiery kata to Wakatsuki, which Takeshi surprisingly withstands much better than the previous one. "Surprisingly," because the adamantine kata increases the rigidity of the body, and the fiery one is aimed at the attack power, which makes the technique more destructive. However, Waka is only pushed back able to cope with the force, but not with the speed of this technique. At the same moment, he just takes it upon himself, just to carry out his maneuver. This is more than enough to understand that this does not pose a serious danger for him, except that he may be thrown out of the ring.
When it comes to Fei taking Tiger attacks, he constantly dispels them with a combination of redirection kata and water kata. However, as soon as he took the blow, he became sick and coughed up blood. Moreover, it wasn't even the full impact of the Wakatsuki strike. The water kata still leveled and dispersed the damage, just made it twice as bad.
Even after taking a weakened attack, Fei already looks exhausted enough and admits that Waka completely suppressed Nico-style with his brute force alone.
Therefore, he has to use the form of a Divine Demon to win.
I'm not saying Fei didn't pose a threat in basic form to Wakatsuki. Takeshi himself recognized the danger of enemy techniques and considered him an opponent of his level. But it's all about technique and speed. Wakatsuki could only respond to twenty Fei strikes with 1 of his own, which equalized their chances. However, Fei cannot physically approach the Tiger in any way. He can only win by exhausting the opponent, dodging all his attacks. And also he is not able to take enemy attacks and continue the fight at the same level after that.
I think after this, the question about their parity in the basic form disappears.
Now we will move on to the most striking part of this dispute, regarding the "superiority" of the Divine Demon Fei over Wakatsuki. This form is a new level of comparison with the Advance technique and the level of increase in forces surpasses even Removal.
With his awakening, Wangfang meets Takeshi with blows with all his might. The first one was applied to the solar plexus and strongly pushed the Tiger back. The second one almost threw Wakatsuki out of the Arena and we can't determine his hit point. However, presumably this is the same case, since we do not see fresh blood on the face.
But! But even after that, we have a statement from Waka that he is still superior to the opponent in physical strength, but their gap in speed has only increased. The difference in speed has increased so much that Fei perceives Wakatsuki as a static image and can inflict an incredible hail of blows on him when he can't do anything.
Blows, each of which is dangerous, but still does not cause critical damage.
In his comment, Jin says that Fei surpasses Waka by several times at least, and possibly by several dozen.
The second version is supported by a frame where we are told that the heartbeat rate of Fei has increased several tens times. But we have no reason to believe that the force increases in proportion to the multiplicity of the heartbeat. We know that Ohma's heartbeat accelerates 4-5 times with the full release of Adwance, but due to this, its speed increases only twice, later accelerating with an even greater release of force. There is no question of any proportionality.
Jin says that he did not suggest using a 30-40-fold multiplier at all, but in any case he devoted one paragraph to this, accompanying "Do what you will with this information, see ya.
Thus, Jin implies that Fei outperforms Takeshi by at least 9-12 and probably 30-40 times, which would actually allow him to finish the fight with one blow. As it was in all the battles with Wakatsuki, however, it happened with his opponents.
But what do we see?
Fei beats.
And beats.
And beats.
And more.
And more.
Many times. At one point, the judges themselves lost count of how many punches Waka took.
If the difference in strength was really that great, then one blow to the back of the head would be enough for Waka to die or at least lose a consciousness.
Many of his attacks are aimed at the jaw, the back of the head, the neck. Also, a number of blows are directed to the liver and spleen. He hits specifically at particularly vulnerable places to inflict critical damage, but Waka does not fall. Moreover, Wangfang compares the opponent to a boss from a video game, who has a colossal level of health and who has to be taken with exhaustion with caution, because he can still defeat you with a few blows and inflict critical damage so easily, as if it means nothing to him. Fei is so unsure if his strength is enough at the moment that he starts thinking about using even more strength, but does not do so for fear of losing control.
It is also worth noting that even in this form Fei does not risk taking Waka blows, although with a difference of 9-40 times he should not pay attention to them. It happens here, here and here. We see this both in the case of simple blows, when he dodges at the last moment, and in the case of Blast Core, although Wangfang did not know about the strength of the technique and hardly believed that this blow was much stronger than the others.
Takeshi takes the blows for the whole fight, adhering to the tactics of "wait and attack at the right moment", however, this would not make any sense if his opponent surpassed him many times. In a battle with an opponent of equal strength, but superior in strength, Julius, Wakatsuki quickly switched from the usual tactics of tank strikes to techniques and strategies, because he understood that he would not be able to withstand this damage for a long time. However, he could afford to be a punching bag in a fight with Fei, because the enemy's blows did not carry such serious damage for him.
Wakatsuki does not want to lose in physical strength, so he takes Fei in a grip and completely suppressing physically, forcing him to release the full limit of the Divine Demon to resist this. And only in this form, which can live literally half a minute, he surpasses Waka in power, breaking out of the grip and finishing him off with the last blow. Finishing off an exhausted opponent. Even here there is no question of superiority in 9-40 times and the battle of 8-A vs Low 7-C/ 7-C.
Oh, yes. Ohma is also declared a more dangerous and threatening opponent than Fei, so at least he and Lolong should scale.
@Everything12 @Duedate8898 @Planck69 @KingTempest @CrimsonStarFallen @UchihaSlayer96 @Confluctor
Would any of you be willing to help evaluate which of the above posts that makes the most sense please?
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LordGinSama's arguments makes more sense to me compared to Nik's. As Arc pointed out, some of the analogies don't work very well in Nik's side.
Also I think Nik using Ginsama's message from 4 months ago isn't really justifiable. A lot of things can change in 4 months, especially ones stance on the statistics of fictional characters.
Also I think Nik using Ginsama's message from 4 months ago isn't really justifiable. A lot of things can change in 4 months, especially ones stance on the statistics of fictional characters.
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As someone who’s been part of this discussion since the beginning I would have to side with Gin as well. His points for the 15x multiplier and the Fei scaling have more backing than Nik and is harder to disprove than Nik.
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I literally showed you a page where a character who takes 2 hits says that he is still stronger.
On another page, Fei directly compares Waka to a tank from the games, saying that he needs to land many hits to drain the enemy and one missed hit will be fatal. Waka did not show an amazing ability to recover during combat. It's just very durable and Fei can't do anything about it. So tell me - is it possible if Fei outnumbered him physically 9-40 times?
Come on, on the next page, he says bluntly that he needs to increase his power to win.
And tell me - if Fei is scaled to 7-C, why isn't its strength scaled? His muscles have increased in volume from the blood flow. If his durability was still at 8-B or 8-A, he would have been ripped apart.
And if his strength increases to 7-C, then how can an opponent inferior to him at 9-40 and using only strength - can inflict critical damage with a random attack?
On another page, Fei directly compares Waka to a tank from the games, saying that he needs to land many hits to drain the enemy and one missed hit will be fatal. Waka did not show an amazing ability to recover during combat. It's just very durable and Fei can't do anything about it. So tell me - is it possible if Fei outnumbered him physically 9-40 times?
Come on, on the next page, he says bluntly that he needs to increase his power to win.
And tell me - if Fei is scaled to 7-C, why isn't its strength scaled? His muscles have increased in volume from the blood flow. If his durability was still at 8-B or 8-A, he would have been ripped apart.
And if his strength increases to 7-C, then how can an opponent inferior to him at 9-40 and using only strength - can inflict critical damage with a random attack?
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As I said, I'm done making any further arguments, you should do the same.
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LordGin makes sense to me personally.
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Bump
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Do we know if the "several times" more powerful than the possessing spirit statement is referring to the max power advance Ohma used to fight Raian ?
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Also, Nik, you get irritated way too quickly, cool your jets mate, this is a civil discussion.
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I would but I'm having issues logging into the wiki.
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Yeah, it's full output given that we see Ohma using the full output in the visuals during the comparison.
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