Katekyo Hitman Reborn Revisions (Continued)

[Piercer_of_Heaven]

@Dragonmasterxyz A Mountain level feat that happened before characters several times more powerful than the previous appear, stomping each other, confirmed by statements made in the Manga.

Byakuran had absorbed all the Vongolo Guardians flames, the Varia, three Funeral Wreaths and some extras. That's already many times Tsuna's flames, possibly even more than just 10 times. Then let's not forget that Byakuran already had enough power to neg Mukuro with his own power, with zero difficulty. Then he claps Tsuna's strongest attack and stomps him with a finger, showing no effort.

Yet his less than 10% statements is somehow unreliable, despite the evidence suggesting otherwise?

You cannot compare a vague statement like that to a statement that actually gives numbers. Quantifiable differences in power>>>>

Enma's case is not like that, at all. It's not a simple statement about power, it's how his ring works. It slowly awakens after a week but it leaves him at only 1/7 of his true power at the beginning. It has nothing to do with confidence.

Daemon's statement was about the power he is limited to and we see that he was limited in the manga.

Don't think I need to address Checkerface's statement.

You think these statements regarding differences in power that are actually specific and supported, were made for no reason? You think that they're hyperbolic or exaggerations?

No.

As I said, lack of feats=irrelevant.

You don't need feats to back statements like these, that doesn't even make sense.

If one character can produce 20 Megatons of TNT via calc and another character is 100 times more powerful via statement, then he can produce 2 Gigatons of TNT.

Ignoring those statements and applying your own ideas of power differences is the equivalent of headcanon.

"He has no Large Mountain level feats, so there's no way he can be Large Mountain level, despite stomping someone who was over 10 times more powerful than his previous Mountain level state"

^Does that make sense to you?

Tsuna doesn't need to melt an island on panel to be Large Island level in AP.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Before I begin, I will kindly ask you to calm your tone, no one is getting snappy at you so don't get snappy with us because we disagree. You can get your points across without being rude. Thank you.

" A Mountain level feat that happened before characters several times more powerful than the previous appear, stomping each other, confirmed by statements made in the Manga."

Where are these numbers coming from? Also doesn't make you an entire tier above. It doesn't even make you high end.

"Byakuran had absorbed all the Vongolo Guardians flames, the Varia, three Funeral Wreaths and some extras. That's already many times Tsuna's flames, possibly even more than just 10 times. Then let's not forget that Byakuran already had enough power to neg Mukuro with his own power, with zero difficulty. Then he claps Tsuna's strongest attack and stomps him with a finger, showing no effort."

Having more flames does not simply multiply your rating by that much. We've never done that before. So him getting let's say 5 flames does not mean his power multiplied x5. If I remember correctly that attack is Mountain level. So "At least Mountain level" will suffice for that.

"Enma's case is not like that, at all. It's not a simple statement about power, it's how his ring works. It slowly awakens after a week but it leaves him at only 1/7 of his true power at the beginning. It has nothing to do with confidence."

Then we will accept that multiplier. Assuming we use multipliers like that.

"Daemon's statement was about the power he is limited to and we see that he was limited in the manga.

Don't think I need to address Checkerface's statement."

See above.

"If one character can produce 20 Megatons of TNT via calc and another character is 100 times more powerful via statement, then he can produce 2 Gigatons of TNT."

Depends on who and what makes the statement.

"Ignoring those statements and applying your own ideas of power differences is the equivalent of headcanon."

Except we have done this multiple times before. This is nothing new.

"He has no Large Mountain level feats, so there's no way he can be Large Mountain level, despite stomping someone who was over 10 times more powerful than his previous Mountain level state"

Never once said that. Means nothing.

"Tsuna doesn't need to melt an island on panel to be Large Island level in AP."

Never said he did.

 

[RinkakuKagune]

I'm sorry Dragon but it would be grossly inaccurate to claim Byakuran was drunk on power, Byakuran doesn't underestimate people because he doesn't need to. He already know their power by looking into parallel universes. Not to mention the fact that he was capable of matching a 50% Tsuna with the Original Vongola Ring at 80% himself. We already know the Original Vongola Ring gave Tsuna a huge power up, so the fact that he was capable of doing so should tell us (along with his OP as **** fortune telling bull!@#$) should indicate the fact that he was telling the truth. It's now not just character statements vut also legimate feats backing it.

And I certainly do not mean to come if rude or aggressive, but there is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY Enma would get drunk on power (excluding Daemons influence) it's just not in his character, rather like Cell and Byakuran he iverestimates them because its his nature; again not to be rude but I really don't see why you're arguing against it?

I mean the characters are trustworthy, Byakuran has Paralell World Fortune Telling ffs, and there are feats of them providing the power output against there enemies.

Again sincerely sorry if I came across rude, that's just ny way if devating things; I know you're an admin and it's not my intentiin to be rude.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Never came off as aggressive so don't worry.

My issues lie with the fact that similar statements have gone through much worse scrutiny. For example, Cell. We gave reasons that Cell had no reason to lie either, yet it still took multiple sources just to prove his statement. We literally had to source multiple articles and media that supported his statement. Hence why I am skeptical here. My deal is "What would they think if we went through so much to believe Cell's statement, but this one statement was enough for these guys." It's more about fairness and consistency. Also being a fortune teller doesn't exactly make you more credible. Just pointing that out.

Also I never said Enma was drunk on power. I said it was more his subordinate was more or less cocky considering the situation.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Dragonmasterxyz. It would set a bad precedent.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I do want to note that I'm not trying to downplay these guys out of spite or create my own headcanons just for the sake of downplay. (As I am a supporter of KHR as is) However, I don't want us to have double standards here. Hence why I am shaky on these statements.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes. That is perfectly understandable.

 

[RinkakuKagune]

I do want to note that I'm not trying to downplay these guys out of spite or create my own headcanons just for the sake of downplay. (As I am a supporter of KHR as is) However, I don't want us to have double standards here. Hence why I am shaky on these statements.

These couple of scans prove that Byakuran wasn't lying about his 10x power up. Tsuna adnits it himself in the last one, which should mean something as he was the one fighting him so he would be in a place to know the power levels.

 

[Piercer_of_Heaven]

@Dragonmasterxyz There's no need to overcomplicate simple statemmets and to be blunt, the Cell scenerio was just stupid.

Anyways,

- Byakuran wasn't lying.

- It was an explanation on how Enma's ring works.

- Daemon wasn't lying.

Etc.

Too many similar statements for them to be hyperbole, even though it has been proven otherwise regardless.

Then consider the context - what the statements are actually saying and what the author is most likely portraying through these scans.

So, why deny them? There's no reason to.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

"There's no need to overcomplicate simple statemmets and to be blunt, the Cell scenerio was just stupid."

But it still happened. Being simple does not mean it cannot be debated. And like I said, regardless of what you think, it is the simple fact that we must not have double standards. We can't let character statement like this pass without at least some discussion on whether it is hyperbole or not.

- You can't just say that.

- I already accepted that.

- You can't just say that.

"Too many similar statements for them to be hyperbole, even though it has been proven otherwise regardless."

Many statements for different situations.

"Then consider the context - what the statements are actually saying and what the author is most likely portraying through these scans."

We could really care less about author intent. What the author wants doesn't matter when evaluating.

But now the question I would like to ask, if if we have ever done multipliers for statements like this? If not then, even if accepted, we cannot multiple values like this.

 

[Antvasima]

We have done it for Jin Mo-Ri and Kaio-ken Goku, but not othervise, I think.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Well, I know we use specific number multipliers like that. But have we ever used, "I used x percent of my power" or "I've used 1/x of my power" to use as multipliers?

 

[Antvasima]

I do not think so, no.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Well, I don't think we should suddenly start now.

 

[RinkakuKagune]

"There's no need to overcomplicate simple statemmets and to be blunt, the Cell scenerio was just stupid."

But it still happened. Being simple does not mean it cannot be debated. And like I said, regardless of what you think, it is the simple fact that we must not have double standards. We can't let character statement like this pass without at least some discussion on whether it is hyperbole or not.

- You can't just say that.

- I already accepted that.

- You can't just say that.

"Too many similar statements for them to be hyperbole, even though it has been proven otherwise regardless."

Many statements for different situations.

"Then consider the context - what the statements are actually saying and what the author is most likely portraying through these scans."

We could really care less about author intent. What the author wants doesn't matter when evaluating.

But now the question I would like to ask, if if we have ever done multipliers for statements like this? If not then, even if accepted, we cannot multiple values like this.

There are statements from Tsuna himself, who fought Byakuran, saying he wasn't lying.

And plhs the whole 1/7 thing js literally the mechanics of his powers, to say it's hyperbole ignores the way his powers work. From then its not a statement on his power, but rather how his Ring works.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

You do realize I said I accepted the Enma stuff right?

Even then, if we've never accepted multipliers from statements like these, then we shouldn't start doing so all of a sudden.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I don't think we should suddenly start now.

Agreed. It is probably a bad idea.

We need some collaboration to appropriately adjust the profile statistics however.

 

[Piercer_of_Heaven]

@Dragonmasterxyz

There is no real debate here. You're pretty much just questioning the statements because reasons. Valid explanations have already been given. I can understand double standards and stuff but it is very clear that these statements are legit.

- I can because it's a fact. We already knew Byakuya was many times stronger than Tsuna, based on the fact he absorbed 17+ people's flames, most being combarable to Tsuna and his own power alone was enough to stomp Future Mukuro. @Xanxussama1010 gave more evidence supporting the statement.

- There's not as much to say regarding Daemon's statement. Although, nothing suggests it was a lie and we clearly saw that he was limited in his power.

It's the same type of statement, "I only used x amount of power/I am limited to x amount of power", there all quite specific as well.

No, that's just false. We don't know what the author's intentions are, but, the author is absolute, (most of the time), and we can use our intelligence to gain an idea on what those intentions are.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

"It's the same type of statement, "I only used x amount of power/I am limited to x amount of power", there all quite specific as well."

No it isn't. We have never done this for characters who have made this statement and we should not start now. Simple as that. There are many characters in fiction who have said "I've uses X amount of my power." I believe based on what Ant has said, we have not done that. If we have, fine if not, we are not accepting it for KHR only.

"No, that's just false. We don't know what the author's intentions are, but, the author is absolute, (most of the time), and we can use our intelligence to gain an idea on what those intentions are."

Is it false? Is it really? Not at all. We don't treat authors as absolute. We never have.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I will let Celestial handle the rest while I do a bit or research to how we treat this stuff. I've given my opinions on the topic.

 

[Piercer_of_Heaven]

So, let's ignore legitimate statements because we didn't think too much about it previously, that's the right path to take, right? Don't accept it for KHR only, improve the other profiles that have incorrect statistics, based on the ignorance of statements.

Author>Everybody else. That's not even debatable. There are only some specific scenerios where that wouldn't apply or could be in question.

 

[Antvasima]

Dragonmasterxyz is correct. We cannot use double-standards regarding such issues, and this would set a bad precedent.

We now need to stop arguing in circles about this, and instead collaborate regarding how we should appropriately adjust the character profile statistics.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Or maybe we didn't accept that type of multiplier to begin with. Anyway I'm done with this.


Actually it is. Word of God/Author's Intent more times than not is irrelevant to our decision. Simple as that. Once again I will not continue to go in circles with you. I stand by the ratings I posted above.

 

[Antvasima]

We still need to work out how the statistics should be adjusted now that we have discarded the multipliers though.

 

[Xanxussama1010]

So...IIUC, we discarded all of multipliers right? Just ask for make sure so that I can update blog and edit their profiles again.

 

[Antvasima]

That is correct, yes.

You can mention how the characters will be rescaled here first.

Also, thank you for the help.

 

[Xanxussama1010]

Ok, for rescaling. Since we only used multipliers to got High 7-A and higher stats. So we just change all of that to "At least 7-A, likely higher" which is out highest legiminate stats that we have now.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I think God Tiers can be High 7-A.

 

[Xanxussama1010]

@Dragon Who is your God Tier? Kawahira? or include other characters?

 

[GalaxianAegis]

@Xanxus The only speculated God Tiers are Vongola Primo and Checker Face. Everyone else should be below them.

 

[Xanxussama1010]

@GalaxianAegis About that, I have a question. Why is Giotto was list to same rank with Kawahira in the first place? I never rebember that there're any statement about comparing between both, unless I'm missing something.

 

[GalaxianAegis]

I'm guessing it has to do with the fact that Primo is still way above, Tsuna supposedly.

 

[Xanxussama1010]

Not sure about comparing Giotto to Tsuna since they're on different generation and they're never fight each other before. I think best choice for comparing him should be Daemon Spade since he come from same generation with Giotto.

 

[Antvasima]

@Dragonmasterxyz

Do you only mean Checker Face, or other characters as well?

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I was thinking Checker Face, Giotto and maybe Reborn. But these guys no more about the God Tiers than me, so I'll let them decide who gets the High 7-A tiering.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem.

 

[Xanxussama1010]

I'm ok with Dragonmasterxyz's idea. But if Reborn is on this rank, that's mean Bermuda and Tsuna's final form should be on this rank too since Bermuda fought Reborn and Tsuna casually defeated Bermuda.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Well, I don't know the God Tiers that well honestly. Giotto and Checker Face are maybe the safest bets since I forgot the Reborn vs Bermuda stuff.

 

[GalaxianAegis]

Adult Reborn had trouble keeping up with Bermuda's teleportation somewhat, but he managed to avoid it for a time with his reflexes. I'm not sure how the fight exactly went beyond that.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. So what are the suggested tier revisions for which characters.