Katanagatari CRT

[Agnaa]

I'm not okay with those implications giving Shichika Power Mimicry for swords. imo he should only have Power Mimicry for martial arts techniques.

I'm also dubious about Reactive Evolution as you explained there, and Adaptation as it's explained on the profile. Shichika trained for 11 months and became far stronger between start of series and when he broke Zettō Kanna, I don't think we can assume he can adapt his abilities like that within the timeframe of a battle.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

Fair, but for the most part we never really saw him training except half-assed punching exercises when he was bored. Most of his improvement seemed to come from fighting people and usually just boiled down to getting physically stronger. Whereas during his rampage he suddenly busts out ranged shockwaves, information analysis, Hybrid Striking, and Hachiretsu: Revamp. He instantly deduced and countered Yoroi's only weakness when he would have had o way of knowing what it was, and did so the second he entered the room. He also spontaneously used Revamp, which inflicts a full combo on two enemies at once, as soon as he encountered someone that required a move like that.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Shichika has literally only ever seriously trained after he got his ass handed to him by Nanami. Every other improvement was made with casual or mid-battle experimentation alone.

Also, I find the comparision to levers and nuclear reactors bad to say the least. And again, as I have stated more times than I really want to think about,

I am not using the physics statement to give abilities, I am using it as justification for an ability

 

[Agnaa]

So you think he only trained once over 11 months? He specifically never trained during any of his downtime?

I thought there were multiple implications/allusions during Katanagatari to Shichika training off-screen.

>ranged shockwaves

Didn't he basically already do this against the armor dude? This just seems like a more powerful version of that. I also really do not think "developed ranged shockwaves" is justification of reactive evolution/adaptation, especially considering he created shockwaves many times throughout the series.

>information analysis

He already had this from earlier in the series.

>Hybrid Striking

He saw Nanami do this (or essentially this) earlier on in the series, iirc.

>Hachiretsu: Revamp

Using a move he already has against two people. If this is reactive evolution/adaptation it's barely above human levels.

>Yoroi's weakness

He would have already known this by fighting extensively against the armoured suit before.

Shichika has literally only ever seriously trained after he got his ass handed to him by Nanami.

And that time the swordswoman trained him.

Also, I find the comparision to levers and nuclear reactors bad to say the least.

Why? All the statement's saying is "These swords use weird shit in physics to do extraordinary things", i.e. "These swords are not supernatural, they're natural."

I am not using the physics statement to give abilities, I am using it as justification for an ability

Again, I don't see how saying "the mechanics aren't supernatural" justifies something being durability negation/invulnerability.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

1. I certainly don't recall any

2. No, he used armor piercing attacks. The only time he ever displayed any ranged abilities at all was during his final rampage.

3. True, but it seemed more instant and passive, and allowed him to deduce things he wasn't able to before, such as Yoroi's real weakness.

4. Yes, which is where the technique mimicry comes from.

5. Fair enough.

6. No, when he fought him previously, he just brute forced his way through because he couldn't determine the suit's exact weakness.

7. Which he then had wiped immediately after, and had nothing to do with his actual abilities

8. They're stated to surpass physics, not just exploit them. After all you have things such as a sword with the blacksmith's soul trapped inside that causes plants to wither in its presence, which sounds pretty supernatural.

9. No comment

 

[Agnaa]

1. Guess I'll have to rewatch the series to find out, but I find it incredibly unlikely that he never trained outside of the Nanami fight. He trained constantly during his time on the island since he was a child, no clue why that'd stop for those 11 months.

2. He used armor piercing attacks that utilized shockwaves. You even wrote that on Shichika's profile for his base form. All this is is turning his close range shockwaves (5-10cm) into longer range ones. And there's no implication this was done through reactive evolution/adaptation.

3. He got stronger as part of his strongest form, not a big surprise.

4. I know, you said that suddenly happened during the rampage as justification for reactive evolution/adaptation, when it's just the same power mimicry he's had the entire series.

5. Ty.

6. He shockwaved his way through because he wasn't allowed to damage the sword, and as shown here, attacking Yoroi that way damages it extensively. Shichika made it extremely clear throughout the series that not being able to damage the swords is a big obstacle for him, there's no reason to assume he only figured out this weakness now.

7. Sure.

8. When are they stated to surpass physics? I'm pretty sure that statement was never found, and only the "exploits physics" one was.

Sounds supernatural, but some verses attribute those things to non-supernatural sources.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

1. I should probably rewatch too, I just don't remember him ever doing it, and statements that he had improved seemed to refer specifically to in fights.

2. His durability-negating shockwaves always required physical contact to send through the target, the only one that may have already been a ranged attack was Ryoryou Kakou, but that one was never shown clearly so that's an unknown.

3. Which is exactly my point

4. Yeah that was faulty wording on my part

6. He was never holding back during the fight, and in fact practically bluescreened when he realized that his only hax he was prepared to rely on was completely useless. The only reason he won was because he was physically stronger and was able to outgrapple the pirate guy once Togame reawakened his resolve. No indication or even likelihood that he figured out the armor's weakness.

8. Is that not what Togame and Shikizaki were talking about? I thought there was a scan of that provided somewhere.

True, but this series has a clear distinction between skillhax and the supernatural, with the swords and Shikizaki's astral projection future sight being incomprehensible even in a world where altering your personal gravity can be done with skill.

 

[Agnaa]

1. Alright.

2. He never sends small shockwaves even a few cm away? I kinda doubt that and I'd need to rewatch. But regardless, I don't think developing ranged shockwaves with no explanation is justification for Reactive Evolution and Adaptation.

3. Sure but I'm trying to talk about Reactive Evolution/Adaptation here, I agree that he got stronger when he completed.

4. Alright.

6. He had to hold back during every fight. I'm pretty sure it was an even bigger part of this fight, with Shichika not being sure how to win precisely because he can't damage the armor. But I'd have to rewatch to find this quote.

8. You'll have to check again I guess.

9. The swords use tech from the future, of course they'd be incomprehensible to the past. The astral projection future sight isn't incomprehensible, it's just an ability from that family tree.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Togamw said it earlier in episode 11 iirc

 

[Creaturemaster971]

2. Alright, fair enough.

3. (thumbs up) no problem

6. I'm almost positive that wasn't the case, but I'm open to being proven wrong

8. I'll see if HI3 remembers when that was, iirc he's the one who was bringing it up

9. Yes but considering the implication that he may have made swords which negate damage against the supernatural while passing harmlessly through the mundane, and swords that undo that damage, and the 12 Deviant Blades are superior to all the others, I think that lends credence to the idea that they too are in some way beyond mundane science (which has given me an idea for a meme)

 

[Agnaa]

Togamw said it earlier in episode 11 iirc

Please give a timestamp.

9. Sure, but I'm not quite sure if the timeline lines up perfectly, but then again we don't know exactly when Katanagatari took place. And then again, I'm not sure if the swords you're referring to are necessarily beyond physics in their construction, considering that in Monogatari paper talismans with symbols written on them can fend off the supernatural. I don't think a supernatural construction is required to combat the supernatural.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

Yes we do, Kiss-Shot visited Japan and acquired her sword during the time period that Shikizaki was alive, and it would be very in-character for Shikizaki to seek her out. And would that not imply that those talismans also have some sort of supernatural quality to them?

 

[Agnaa]

Yes but we know that the sword was passed down to Seishirou Shishirui from his ancestors, and considering he's over 400 years old, the sword's many generations > 400 years ago, so I'm not sure.

I'm not very sure.

 

[Agnaa]

Togamw said it earlier in episode 11 iirc

I watched the first 25 minutes and couldn't find any statement resembling that.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

Considering that Shikizaki lived somewhere between 600 and 400 years ago, it still seems possible

 

[Antvasima]

Have you reached an agreement yet?

 

[Agnaa]

Not yet. I only just started participating in the thread and brought up new things which there's a disagreement on.

However, I think that we're moving towards agreement on the points in the OP, although I haven't heard from hl3 or Earl on those in a while, and more discussion's needed with creaturemaster.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

@Agnaa

I have only something to correct on this:

I'd be happy to give them "Likely Durability Negation" and "Likely Invulnerability" respectively, as these are just about good enough statements to justify those abilities.

• That is actually not enough. I'll go over invulnerability first.

Im not sure how familiar you are with this ability but without something supernatural like reality warping powers, that is one of the hardest abilities to prove on NLF levels. I'll give you an example on Warframe where a literal mod that states "makes you invunlerable to all damage" and works the same as game mechnics invunlerability is not enough to warrant it. Stating "can't be broken" in a verse of tier 7 is not enough. It's just high durability. It amounts to about as much as "No one without Sharingan can beat Itachi". Which always means inside the context of the verse. Not to mention Shichika does break that sword.

• Dura neg

This is actually not a really hard one to prove, but the statement is really "it can cut through anything cus it's sharp". And sharpness by logic doesn't give complete dura neg, it just makes it far easier to cut objects beyond your tier. And there is no statement on how sharp it is. I would be fine if it was something like "cuts on a molecular/atomic level" cus that is durability negation. Simple sharpness it is. And statements like that are about the same as "This chainsaw will cut through anything". It just means it will cut through everything that you may end up needing to cut, not literally everything.

Using those statements feels the same as using Muhamad Ali's statment of "The man to beat me ain't been born yet" as justification to say Ali's the most powerful man to ever exist, not even armed soldiers or people with nukes can kill him, by forgetting to add the context of "in a fair game of boxing". Similarly taking "it can cut through anything" without the line of "within the verse" is not exactly proffessional.

 

[Agnaa]

That makes sense actually. I'm for removing those abilities then.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Warframe is the exact opposite of a good example when the abilities you call NLF are currently on several pages, which were updated and added by you btw. Your arguments of "the verse is only tier 7 so every statement is only within the context of tier 7" makes no sense because people clearly know what the sun and moon are and that destroying them would be extremely impressive, as well as the fact that, as I will repeatedly state, there are literally no antifeats to make the statements not usable and the statements themselves come from sources that would know if Namakura could only cut anything on a tier 7 level or something similar.

Ok so being able to cut atoms via sharpness isn't dura neg anymore? Or is that not what you're saying despite it being easily deduced from what you are saying despite your adamance that it isn't. Never have I once said that Namakura ignores durability solely because it is sharp, I'm saying that it ignores durability from repeated statements from reputable sources, including one that basically says that only Namakura could cut Kanna.

That is a strawman and you know it. There's a difference between an IRL human saying that nothing can beat them, and two weapons from a fictional universe having many statements from reputable resources and a complete lack of anti-feats to make the statements invalid. Calling your opposition unprofessional rather than actually arguing against them with good reasoning is just as unprofessional as you seem to think we are.

 

[Agnaa]

Ok so being able to cut atoms via sharpness isn't dura neg anymore?

Earl specifically stated that cutting atoms via sharpness is dura neg.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Read the next sentence after that

Because he said that you can't negate dura via sharpness, just be able to damage higher-tiered people. So either he's contradicting himself or he needs to make up his mind

 

[Agnaa]

That looks like just bad grammar/a misspelling on his part, imo. But okay.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

That looks like just bad grammar/a misspelling on his part, imo. But okay.

^^

Typo on my part.

@H13

I'll respond to those topics when I'm not on my phone.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Fair enough

 

[Agnaa]

Your arguments of "the verse is only tier 7 so every statement is only within the context of tier 7" makes no sense because people clearly know what the sun and moon are and that destroying them would be extremely impressive

So they know the exact size of the sun and moon and know the AP to destroy them?

Why not go a step further and say that they know the galaxy, or even the universe, exists, and that destroying those would be impressive?

there are literally no antifeats to make the statements not usable

A lack of antifeats isn't enough to remove the existence of the no-limits fallacy.

and the statements themselves come from sources that would know if Namakura could only cut anything on a tier 7 level or something similar.

It's not just what they know, it's also what they mean, they might not actually be including everything beyond the regular scope of the verse when they say that. Also, they may just not have the knowledge about whether it can cut things higher or not. It's not like they saw someone cutting through an entire planet with it, and we don't know that they know of a generalized mechanism that could let them do that.

That is a strawman and you know it.

Yeah I stopped reading Earl's post there since his arguments got bad, imo.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

The point I was trying to make is that the series isnt just tier 7 in scale. Even the people in-verse only think it's possible through wind blades which are also stated to ignore durability iirc.

My point with anti-feats is that there is no counterexample from within the verse. Plus, we don't consider cutting atoms as something able to harm 4D beings because that is blatant NLF, and I'm not trying to say anything like "Namakura can harm High 2-As". Basically, you are right, because I wasn't trying to state anything about Namakura or Kanna that would be NLF.

I mean, when someone says "this can cut anything" they most likely are being literal, sans NLF but that's a separate thing. The only Deviant Blade with the range to be able to do something lile that, even in theory, is Hakuto Hari.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

Hakuto Hari doesn't negate durability, but that's a whole other can o' worms

 

[Agnaa]

The point I was trying to make is that the series isnt just tier 7 in scale.

The scale of a verse isn't defined by random constructs in the background, it's about everything that's relevant to the plot, such as characters, weapons, and feats. By that metric it is tier 7 in scale.

My point with anti-feats is that there is no counterexample from within the verse.

And my point is that the lack of anti-feats doesn't mean you can NLF stuff to High 3-A.

Plus, we don't consider cutting atoms as something able to harm 4D beings because that is blatant NLF

Yes, we agree. We only consider it able to harm 3D beings, i.e. up to High 3-A.

and I'm not trying to say anything like "Namakura can harm High 2-As"

No shit? You're just saying it can harm High 3-As, and that's what we take issue with.

Basically, you are right, because I wasn't trying to state anything about Namakura or Kanna that would be NLF.

Not being NLF would be capping it at around the level of being able to cut through the strongest character in the verse, and being invulnerable to the strongest character in the verse.

I mean, when someone says "this can cut anything" they most likely are being literal, sans NLF but that's a separate thing.

NLF is the entire thing.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

I mean that's technically true, but my point is that the setting isn't the size of a mountain and then the universe just stops

I'm not saying it can harm High 3-As, especially with most High 3-As being limited 4D. Again, my point with the antifeats is that you can't point to something in the verse and say "this disproves dura neg/invulnerablility"

Ok

I'm not saying it can harm High 3-As, espcially with most High 3-As being limted 4D.

Except that context is not going to turn "this can cut anything" into the equivalent of "this can only cut anything below a certain levwl of strength." Additionally, Namakura specifically makes Uneri dangerous because he can harm far stronger opponents with it, and it doesn't create the large AoE that most of the stronger people in the verse make when they attack (see Shikizaki vs Shichika).

 

[Agnaa]

I mean that's technically true, but my point is that the setting isn't the size of a mountain and then the universe just stops

Irrelevant.

I'm not saying it can harm High 3-As, espcially with most High 3-As being limted 4D.

Most High 3-As are infinite 3-D, there's almost no limited 4D High 3-As.

But fine, remove the word "high" from my last post and my point still stands.

Again, my point with the antifeats is that you can't point to something in the verse and say "this disproves dura neg/invulnerablility"

And again, that does not mean shit, so stop bringing it up.

Except that context is not going to turn "this can cut anything" into the equivalent of "this can only cut anything below a certain levwl of strength."

That's how we treat NLF abilities in every single verse on the site. Katanagatari does not get special treatment.

 

[Antvasima]

Earl and Agnaa seem to make sense to me.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

I still disagree with removing the abilities, however at this point I have nothing to add that hasn't already been stated.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Basically agnaa's last reply. That's nlf on our site. There are cases that are in similar situations yet are nlf.

"Then the universe stops"

Yes you gotta prove that they were talking about cutting the galaxy and universe because under normal circumstances they would be talking about the characters or concrete materials they're interacting with. Not stellar objects.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

@Ant

literally everything they're saying has already been dealt with before, but you do you.

anyways

Except that does mean stuff? You're not going to suddenly make part of the reasoning for something invalid by calling it a shit argument y'know, and it really isn't helping you at all. Not being able to point to something in the verse and have that instantly disprove dura neg/invulerability is, in fact, a rather essential part of such abilities being added.

What part of my argument is asking for special treatment, or even remotely implying that I want special treatment? I've literally seen admins agree with abilities for less evidence than this, which is well above what would be reasonable for them btw.

@Earl

If your only going to pigeon arguements that have not only been dealt with several times before, but are also just outright bad or literally make no sense, I suggest saving the time and effort for something else.

 

[Agnaa]

literally everything they're saying has already been dealt with before, but you do you.

This is very well possible. If you point out where they've been dealt with I can see if they adequately address the issues I have.

Except that does mean stuff?

I never said that there were anti-feats. "There are no anti-feats" is only a counterargument against a claim that there are anti-feats. It is not an affirmative argument for "There are no anti-feats, therefore based off that alone we can ignore NLF."

It is a part of those abilities being added, but it's a response to counterarguments, not an affirmative argument in and of itself.

What part of my argument is asking for special treatment, or even remotely implying that I want special treatment?

I'm not trying to say that you want special treatment. I'm simply saying that as it's how we treat other verses, we won't give special treatment for Katanagatari.

I've literally seen admins agree with abilities for less evidence than this, which is well above what would be reasonable for them btw.

Then go make CRTs to get those abilities removed. But you just saying "abilities", a very general word there, makes me worried. Martial Arts needs less evidence than Invulnerability, as I'm sure you'd know.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

I would but this thread has already made most of my brain die but I only have about 2.5 hours to do so a day rn, not even counting outside IRL shit, so it's not incredibly easy.

I was never trying to use it as an argument for the abilities, in fact i bring it up as much as I do because Earl kept bringing up shit like Kanna being broken by Completed Shichika as evidence for it not being invulnerable, which is it's own issue because that is 100% a fallacy of some kind, at least when used on it's own, and as reasoning for Namakura not having dura neg, and yes that makes as much sense as it sounds like it does.

I think I misworded that tbf.

Reasonable concern, although a lot of that was from back when I was a lurker or not a taking part in much stuff early in my time here, so standards might've just been lower and I didn't realize.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

anyways, the NLF argument seems to be the only one with any weight still, so i'll address that in some more depth

 

[Firephoenixearl]

anyways, the NLF argument seems to be the only one with any weight still, so i'll address that in some more depth

That was the only one with the true weight. At least regarding the first 2 points considering the 3rd was solved.