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Katanagatari CRT

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Completion in Katanagatari means something very different. Achieving Perfection is seen as a first step towards Completion. Perfection means you have become the absolute pinnacle of a specific attribute or concept. Completion means you are unbeatable in all attributes, and have "surpassed perfection", however unquantifiable that may be.
 
Them being beyond physics is supported by their very creator saying so and agreeing with Togame saying that they surpass the laws of physics. If your only argument against this is "well one of them had to deal with friction", then there is no actual counterargument to this because the only friction that Namakura dealt with was the friction between the blade and the sheath.

Which is

y'know

part of the sword

which had the same fucky craftsmanship as the blade
 
So any random omnipotent statement or literally any other statement ever is legit even if it's trustworthy enough.

I see.. time to bump ajimu to at least 1a likely tier 0 then from statements from the verse and guidebook. Yeah legit enough.

Also medaka to low 2c for 4 statements, range and the fact that it's 4d.
 
Not going to dignify that statement, just like i shouldn't have dignified this salty ******* thread
 
Tiers and abilities are quite a bit different though, especially when it comes to omnipotence statements.
 
Insulting, calling me salty doesn't make your argument of immunity to physical damage and high 3a invul negation any better nor does it add more proof.
 
WHYNAUT said:
Tiers and abilities are quite a bit different though, especially when it comes to omnipotence statements.
Click to expand...
In this case it's similar cus it'll be aching to give above high 3a durability. From a random statement of beyond physics without any elaboration or proof that they are beyond physics.

Just look at medaka's case.
 
Beyond physics doesn't equal a High 3-A rating at all though? Beyond physics can just mean that all kinds of impossible feats can be accomplished. Taken from Destiny aren't High 3-A for being unbound by physics.
 
I never intended to have it do so Earl, nor did i ever say anyrhing about tiers. Stop being an outright liar and maybe we can get this wrapped up

But you wont let it. Ive given you evidence that would be enough for any reasonable perso, but no, its all just flowery language and nLF because I'm Firephoenixearl and im a salty asshole who intends to drag out this CRT until a bunch of clueless admins appear and agree with me.
 
I never said it would give tiers. It would be the same though. 3d invul is literally the same as high 3a dura. So again a single statement isn't enough for any of this.

@whynaut

Destinty differs. Its cosmology tops at high 2a and people have actual abilities like law manip and other abstract stuff. Making that much more acceptable and even then im pretty sure destiny has much more than just a statement.

But then again cosmology matters too. If god tier elder scroll characters can gain these bonuses cus they are tier 1. Or giving 1a geom stuff cus of a single statement like beyond logic is a lot easier than giving Adler Mayer the same thing for a statement.
 
I mean wok did make a thread some time ago about the fact that most types of invul are just durability, but that's not my point. Im saying that this addition would be of a similar magnitude. So again saying "it's just invul" is not gonna cut it cus there are few cases in the wiki where true invul is accepted, due to the sheer magnitude of such an addition.
 
That's because those weren't instances of invulnerability and were mislabeled since most were just durability and nothing else, so that's irrelevant. Kanna is a very different case for reasons stated throughout the thread. Your only legitimately usable counter to it is that Shichika broke it, which has itself been countered several times with both Kyotoryuu and Completed Shichika being Deviant Blades on top of just being vastly beyond the scale of the other Deviant Blades in terms of ability.

The fact of the matter is that there is far, far more pointing to it being legitimate and not just durability, and your constant denial of evidence is not going to change that.
 
Dude just cus something doesn't have contradictions doesn't mean it can be used and accepted. If shizaki gave a 1a statement for the sword would you actually try to push it?
 
Hl3 or bust said:
Since when was anyone talking about Beyond-Dimensional Existence?
Click to expand...
Since, never but you're arguing about a NLF power. You know, on a single statement. I am just focusing on your logic of "there is nothing to prove it wrong so it must be right". Which is one of the most common fallacies.

Your logic relies on "you can't prove it wrong". That's not how it works. You need a lot more evidence and feats for "Being beyond physics" to have that statement accepted, not "you can't contradict it that's why it's right", otherwise it just becomes just a less stupid version of "Zeno is omnipotent cus you can't prove he's not".
 
Keep lying Earl, it seems like you feed on it at this point.

The statement was basically the icing on the cake for what Deviant Blades are, as they all are very clearly not normally or physically possible, whether that be in their abilities or sheer strength.

No, not really. I've proven this to a reasonable extent for some time, and i'm waiting for you to try and debunk my points. So far, all you've done is screech something about Tier 0 Zen'o and Stella, which is 100% unrelated to the topic at hand.
 
>Very clearly not normal

Not being perfectly normal, you mean like literally 99% of the verses out there?

Back to my point "A single statement without proof is not enough to push Damage Immunity and Damage Immunity negation along with complete Dura neg". And this

Your only legitimately usable counter to it is that Shichika broke it, which has itself been countered several times with both Kyotoryuu and Completed Shichika being Deviant Blades on top of just being vastly beyond the scale of the other Deviant Blades in terms of ability.

Is not what "proof" means. Proof and contradictions are not the same thing.
 
Not my point and you know it.

I'm not going off of a single statement, I am going off of several from multiple points throughout the series, a complete lack of anti-feats, and the fact that the person who made them says that they **** with physics to do what they do, which is enough for these powers to be legitimate in other cases i have seen. I also have 0 clue what your little tirade about my statement is, since you really don't seem to understand what i'm saying. I was saying that you literally have no way to debunk what you made this thread to try and do so, since all of the evidence points to them being legitimate.

As i already stated, you can ignore and brush off the evidence all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that my side has far more weight than yours.
 
>Going off several from multiple points throughout the series, a complete lack of anti-feats, and the fact that the person who made them says that they **** with physics to do what they do.

That's false. None of the other stuff can be used as proof. "Sharpness" is not dura neg by default. "Cannot be broken" is not invincibility by default. The only reason this is getting pushed is because the creator said "they are beyond physics".

So to make it easier to understand. "Can cut through anything" and "cannot be broken" are what you're trying to prove, not your proof. To prove that they are "truly invincible and all cutting" or to prove that the "can cut through anything" and "cannot be broken" are leigt, you're using the "they are beyond physics" as a basis. But the point is, that claim is so huge it needs proof of it's own. What proof is there besides a single statement?

And before you say "they clearly are not normal" mostly everything in fiction is not normal that's why "fiction" is a thing.

And before you say "they can cut through anything and cannot be broken". That's invalid cus then it's just cycling point, not giving proof. They can cut through anything > Cus they are beyond physics > Cus they can cut through anything > Cus they are beyond physics.

Also which side weighs more is not for you to decide.
 
Why is that exactly? What can't that be used as proof? I don't see any reason why those couldn't be used other than you just being salty and wanting to have these abilities be removed at all costs. Also that is not the only reason, and you 100% know that.

No, I am not. I haven't been for this entire thread. Them messing with physics was the mechanism needed for these to be completely legit in the eyes of people like Wok. There are so many goddamn statements throughout the series that it's not even funny, but you seem to be convienently missing these parts of my posts.

That's not my logic at all. I am saying that they can cut anything/are invulnerable because literally everything within the series points to that with 0 indication otherwise, and them messing with physics was the very last point that I needed because it gives them a mechanism for it to not simply be actual NLF. There was also that statement from Komori that Kanna goes beyond mere physical craftsmanship, which 100% should scale to the rest since Kanna was the first Perfected Deviant Blade created.

I'd say that that is true, but considering the fact that you've gotten to the point of trying to make things not count as evidence over actually debunking them, i'd say that i'm more right than not.
 
>0 Contradictions

No contradictions doesn't mean it's correct. There should be no contraditions to 1-A GER, shall we go ahead and apply that? "Lack of contradictions" is not an argument, it's the basis for the existence of your argument at all. If there were contradictions your argument wouldn't even exist. Doesn't mean "lack of contradictions will give a dude with martial arts complete invulnerability to High 3-A damage/3D". Also don't forget start of the series Shichika (even though he wasn't complete) said he was gonna break that same sword and even the Togame you like so much was wary of such an outcome meaning she did agree that it could happen.

Wok agreed that "if the swords are beyond physics then yes having dura neg would be fine". However a single statement doesn't just give "beyond physics". Oh im sorry make that 2 statements. If you can give more proof as to why these are beyond physics other than those 2 statements alone and "lack of contradiction" then i will agree too. Until then, no. "Beyond physics" is a huge claim, as such needs more proof.

Precisely "everything withi the verse points to them being able to cut through anything and being unbreakable". So with all of those claims. It just says "nothing within a 7-A verse can do that". To push your NLF point you need to prove that the "beyond physics" is legit. Which outside of those 2 claims there is none you've brought up.

And would you look at that, Ant and Matt do agree with me although im all salty, with no good arguments and don't want to count things you say. Dude your points aren't good enough,.
 
That is not my only ******* argument dude. Read my ******* posts and maybe see the stuff that doesn't fit your narritive. BoS Shichika isn't a contradiction to this due to Kyotoryuu.

I'm fairly certain that the guy who made them and a person with info analysis bordering on clairvoyance saying that they don't abide by the laws of physics or whatever would be legit in literally any other case.

Not what i was saying. I said that everything within the verse points to it not being limited to AP or just being dura. Try again.

Ant very clearly didn't read this thread and i'm at least fairly certain that Matt didn't either. Neither of them have watched the series, which isn't even that long, afaik either so idek why you're counting them, especially considering the fact that literally every point you've brought up against dura neg and invulnerability has been debunked.
 
Yet his Kyotoryuu wasn't complete at the time.

Ok, back to my point "being trustworthy" doesn't mean any statement would be fine. By that logic as i said if he had said tier 1 or tier 0 blades would you try to push it cus "He has no reason to lie"? Point is "you need more proof for that kind of statement" as we don't give huge abilities from mere statements, no matter how trustworthy they are.

Yes but "everything in verse, doesn't point to it being limited to AP in verse". As a rule of the site we always add those last 2 words i wrote i bold, unless you have specific proof it can go beyond that. And "cutting anything" and "not being broken" is not enough proof. Look at something like Gagamaru Chougasaki. In verse it was stated that "you cannot beat him with raw power" yet we don't agree to him being able to tank tier 8 attacks (currently, gonna be tier 9 attacks soon) because "you cannot beat him with raw power in verse".

Yeah so like that's not for you to say. You cannot decide "who reads it and who doesn't, whose vote counts and whose doesn't". They are both admins, their vote counts more than normal votes. The best thing you've done so far is defend your points from my arguments by calling me salty and stuff. And pushing the same points for 107 posts despite me saying "by wiki rules they aren't enough proof, cus that's what we do with every verse".
 
Kyotoryuu was always supposed to be superior to the other Deviant Blades, even before becoming Complete.

I do have more proof, you just can't seem to see it apparently since i've posted it all ******* over this thread.

Stop trying to put words in my mouth. The evidence that Namakura just gives 0 ***** about physical strength far outweighs anything you've brought up to try and debunk it. Same situation with Kanna.

Appeal to authority. Also, if that's all you believe i've done, would you like me to go back to just doing that? Because i have done far ******* more to prove these things than you have done to try and defend your position, especially in the more recent 2/3 of this thread where you've gone from actual debate to trying to make my argument look bad or say that what i've presented isn't evidence despite that being a blatant ******* lie and you know it. I've seen these abilities get added for less than what i've presented before, because most abilities like these don't have constant affirmation throughout the entire goddamn series.
 
So shichika exists beyond physics as a normal human who learned martial arts. Sure, any proof?

I do see, it, i and other people here do deem it "not enough" to give such abilities.

I am not putting words in your mouth, im saying what your sentence "should" be. "Gives 0 *****" can be said for about 99% of the NLF claims in fiction, we don't accept them as given. Also read Gagamaru's example to learn why claims don't give NLF.

False. Appeal to authority would be aching to, if you make a thread to upgrade Katanagatari and an admin just closes it without giving any proof or any form of debunking to your reasons. Them voting one side is not appeal to authority, it's just them siding with whatever they deem more consistent/right.
 
Not what i said. I don't need to provide proof for a statement i didn't make. If you have watched the anime past episode 10, you'd know that Kyotoryuu was itself the 1001st blade that Shikizaki Kiki made and was, from the very beginning, intented to be his final masterpiece, the Completed Deviant Blade.

Well that's their problem in not seeing the fact that

  • ignoring or exploiting physics to do what Deviant Blades do has been used to give the literal abilities we are discussing right now. Before you bring up Namakura and it's sheath, that has been dealt with so don't even bother, and say that they haven't been shown to ignore or **** with physics, i'd like to point you towards Hakuto Hari, which has 0 friction and can throw wind blades that don't simply dissipate after a short while, and the fact that Ento Ju literally has infinite ammo and never overheats, gets warped by the heat, or misfires.
  • going beyond purely physical means to create something means that purely physical interaction won't do anything. Before you call NLF, nowhere have i stated that Kanna can tank a 1-A attack so take your absolutely bullshit comparisions elsewhere
  • and that abilities like these have been unquestioningly added for less than what is shown above.
So, there is your evidence. If you want more i can rewatch the series, but i'd like to see your rebuttal first. I have the highest expectations.

That is exactly what i said it is. I did read it, and it is 100% unrelated to anything discussed here.

No, you're acting like your argument innately has more weight because admins agree with it, which is blatant appeal to authority. They can vote however they want, but it doesn't make anyone more right or more wrong.
 
I am totally fine with dura negation and invulnerability off physics manip. Wanna know why? Because it's already a thing.

Meet The Siberia.

Her power is that she's not constrained by physics. This manifests in ways like her only being affected by reactionary force when she wants to be, so she doesn't just fall through the ground and into the core ot the earth. She can rend basically anything that won't kill her with its presence that's bound by physics due to the reactionary force of the object applying to her, and is incredibly dificult to damage because she can just deciee to not be affected by force and energy. This is already accepted as dura neg and invulnerability.

The case here seems pretty similar. A sword is stated to both operate outside the limits of physics and to cut througu anything. The being outside physics is the mechanic by which durability is negated, being Physics Manipulation. Its not just sone random "uwu unstoppable sword" because the means by which it had these properties is explained. From what I've heard, this doesn't ever get contradicted.

On the durability/invulenrability side, i fail to see why that cannot apply. The only contradiction i am aware of is that a sword got broken, but the apparent context is that the guy who broke the sword also had these weird properties and as such him breaking the sword shouldn't be seen as "its powers just be fake then".

Tldr wankistan wanks dura negation once again let's bully some physical verses
 
Well Schnee and I agreed with Hl3 too, so it was still even when it came to votes.
 
So wankinstan is back at it again huh

So wok. There is a huge difference between:

"X has the ability to manipulate or ignore physics and that's why it can gain traits like invul and dura neg"

and

"X can cut stuff in verse because it's sharp. Then somewhere in the middle with no context of that being the basis of the powers someone says the swords are beyond physics"

The first is stating that the mechancis are this. It's just a dude who has physics manip in a sense and can just cut stuff. The 2nd is not in any way stating that "the mechanics behind all of these are that it's beyond physics" it's just a random statement.

And im pretty sure you are familiar with said difference. Same example but more generalized:

"Someone having a form of statement like invalidate fate"

and

"Someone having abilities that directly come as a result of invalidating fate"

Are way different in terms of acceptance. Which is why someone like Wallenstei can have dura neg, but in the same verse with the same statements someone like Stella Vermillio can't. Stella has a lot of AP and has a statement that "can crush anything" and "her strength is beyond logic", but not "her strength is great and can crush anything because it's beyond logic". Whereas the former has "I can cut through anything because i can manipulate friction", which is way more different than "I can cut through anything" + "i am beyond physics". Because one explains mechanics, and one is just a random statement that can be anything from a hyperbole to flowery writing.
 
Hl3 or bust said:
No one said that they **** with physics because they're sharp.
Click to expand...
Exactly. No one said "it cuts anything cus they mess with physics", them being beyond physics was just a random statement mid series and was never explained or said to be the mechanics behind it all. Which is why it's not the same as the case you gave, nor the same as the case i gave with Wallenstain and Stella.
 
I don't think you understand what anyone is saying. We're arguing that the mechanism for Namakura ignoring durability is that it exploits physics and that Kanna is invulnerable for the same reason. Not that, because they ignore durability or are invulnerable, they exploit physics.

That was also not just some random statement, it was a statement in agreement with Togame's deduction that all Deviant Blades surpassed the laws of physics by the guy that made them, Shikizaki Kiki. Immediately afterwards, he literally says that if Shichika and Togame didn't believe his explaination, then there was no explaination for his Deviant Blades. All Deviant Blades do things with physics, see Hakuto Hari, Enyo Ju, and others, and psychology, see literally every goddamn Deviant Blade due to it's "poison", especially Oto Nokogiri and Dokuto Mekki, to do what they do, so idek where your getting this argument from
 
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