Karna vs Gilgamesh

[ZeroOmar]

@AnonymousBlank

From apo material

"During the great battle in the second volume, Lancer of Black's repeated attaks weren't half-hearted at all, and any other Lancer besides Karna wouldn't have been able to withstand it"

You might consider it a hyperpole or an exaggeration if you want but it still holds some meaning about how strong the stakes are especially since this is vlad's territory, no matter what gil throws at karna all of them are unactiviated nps while karna has multiple nps all comparable to nuclear bombs, heck his casual strikes with MPF can demolish mountains and he can use VS to throw lightning. so i still think karna can match him in terms of firepower. Also SNI doesn't guarantee the win, otherwise he wouldn't have been already defeated once by karna in extella

And haven't we already established that karna can counter enkidu? I haven't seen anyone counter argument what i said about blasting it away with MPF, karna can literally just say "Agni" and everything around him gets blown away

 

[RegisNex1232]

Enkidu breaking was a near impossibility which I doubt Karna can replicate with MBF given that metal chains =/= stakes. And there's missing out on the fact that even unactivated NPs can hurt especially if they have passive effects like poisoning and no one can tank it easily, not even Karna. This is of course ignoring Ea and how Karna can't use his NPs when chained up by Enkidu.

Gil literally loses due to the plot, in a fight where that is not involved he stomps most Servants as he can figure out who they are, can lockdown with Enkidu and blast away with GoB/Ea.

Finally, this is an added match, so I don't know why you want to keep discussing this.

 

[OnePunchSaitama]

@Anonyoumous Blank And RegisNex1232
I think so i stated this twice, Gil Already lost to Hercules. True Archer. So no he isn't the most OP servant in Nasuverse as of now. Those Arguments are just based on "reputation" which have nothing to do with the current debate. And Reputation are ever changing depending on feats.
As for Enkidu, Again please bring proof about it being unbreakable(i have proof for contrary by the way).
And finally, any argument like Enkidu->Lamb like Karna waiting to die->Ea->GG is inferior to Karna using VS from start. Even Clairvoyance Argument are inferior to Karna's Discernment of Poor skill as he has already shown to completely determine a hero's character and power. He never used any of his techs because they all were dying from his regular skills. Dracula with Fame boost couldn't win at all even after releasing all his trump cards and His Fame boost boosted his attacks by two levels at least. In fact in that fight he was stated to have died "several" times without single NP.(same thing happened with Lancer of Black, in fact Karna wasn't worried about taking on even Jaune of Arc with him) What's Gil gonna do to someone with that kind of skill in close combat? Heck His ranged attacks are matched equally by Karna's own country+ and ANti-World NPs. Karna is equally good in this fight in my opinion.

 

[ZeroOmar]

@RegisNex1232

n impossibility that was already broven to be possiple. Iam just trying to say that enkidu doens't make everything easier for gil, it can be countered or blasted away for even a couple of seconds and that would be more than enough for karna to fire one of his nukes/lightning strikes and keep the fight going, any passive effect of the nps gil throws literally gets lolnooped by kavacha and kundala since it protects him conseptualy too, the difference in firepower isn't that high and people really love to forget how karna can keep spamming fire and lightning if he is in fullpower with infinite mana( which i assume he is in this fight) along with the rest of his nps

Tbh i just noticed the discussion and decided to join in, didn't relieze it was already added tho.

@OnePunchSaitama

Karna doesn't have anti world nps.

 

[Ramesses_the_Sun_King]

Gil never lost to True Archer. He isn't the most op servant either because Grand Servants. Enkidu was broken by Herc because he does stuff that's impossible. Fame stuff is irrelevant, and CQC skill as well because Gil wouldn't try to fight Karna in CQC.

Even with KnK Karna still takes dmg from GoB barrage considering Siegfried could deal minor wounds on him. Karna can use his flames at max setting to tank A+ Nps with his armor but he doesn't have enough maryoku to do stuff like that consistently.

We know that Karna thinks the matchup is 50/50 and that Gil isn't super confident that he can win either. So I don't really see the point of this match. Considering their record is one win for Karna and one win for Gil.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

I don't think non CCC/Extella versions have fought, which is what this match is debating.

 

[Ramesses_the_Sun_King]

Why would non Extra version be any different?

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Because of the added resistances and change in stats.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

This match is basically who would win if Gil was summoned as Archer and Karna was Lancer and they fought in a standard HGW.

 

[ZeroOmar]

About the chains of heaven.. i think i would like to explain what i think of the matter more.

First off they have already been broken before and not just once, tiamat broke a giant version used by kingu(implied to be superior to enkidu) and herc broke the smaller one that gil uses, if you want to say that he did it thanks to his A+ strengh parameter then karna can break free with his mana burst and strengh compined he can even offset some balmung nukes with it, if you want to say that it was willpower/being famed for doing the impossible. Karna has those on steroids, he took a critical damage to the heart and stayed alive for more than a week, took several stakes from the inside and casually shruged them and kept fighting, took an empowered excalibur galatine and kept himself alive for jinako, he even temporarily resisted his teacher's curse(that even night omnipotent gods cannot resist) in the legend and manifestated Brahmastra through his sheer willpower which is probably the reason why fate states that his strongest weapon is his will. We also still don't know how kavacha and kundala interacts with enkidu since its stated in ccc to reduce any "antagonisting interference" for all we know it might even reduce the chains to 10% of its powers, so using the chains in this argument and saying that he can't counter it is making a positive claim on something uncertain.

 

[Ramesses_the_Sun_King]

You gotta prove that Karna with Maryoku Burst Flames can do the same stuff Heracles does. Tiamat did it because she's just that strong. Karna never took a critical hit to the heart and stayed alive for weeks, that was Rama. Karna died after he used Vasvi. I have no idea why you are using real myths when this is Nasu Karna. Considering Karna got trapped by Vlad's stakes, Enkidu should be able to bind him.

 

[ZeroOmar]

Wasn't his servant core damaged after his fight with the protag's servant in ccc? I was just giving an example from the myth, indeed he got trapped by vlad's stakes yet he blew them all away by saying "Agni" Iam just suggesting that the same can be done to counter the chains

 

[Ramesses_the_Sun_King]

Don't know if pretty trashy stakes can be compared to chains of heaven that become stronger against divine stuff.

 

[RegisNex1232]

Except for the fact that the chains won't break from that given that they've only been broken by stronger opponents. Still no counter to Enkidu + GoB spam/Ea for Karna. There's a reason why Gil is the strongest Servant. It's not impossible for Karna to win, but very improbable.

 

[OnePunchSaitama]

You gotta prove that Karna with Maryoku Burst Flames can do the same stuff Heracles does. Tiamat did it because she's just that strong. Karna never took a critical hit to the heart and stayed alive for weeks, that was Rama. Karna died after he used Vasvi. I have no idea why you are using real myths when this is Nasu Karna. Considering Karna got trapped by Vlad's stakes, Enkidu should be able to bind him.

First shouldn't you prove your unbreakability claim?
As for Brahmastra breaking chain, It's in the same range perhaps even superior to the Strength stat used by Hercules.
Karna died because he used VAsavi Shakti along with Armor, he could have easily gone on and survived whilst being injured. Enkidu binding seems less likely than projectile eye laser hitting Gil.

 

[OnePunchSaitama]

Except for the fact that the chains won't break from that given that they've only been broken by stronger opponents. Still no counter to Enkidu + GoB spam/Ea for Karna. There's a reason why Gil is the strongest Servant. It's not impossible for Karna to win, but very improbable.

By the way what makes you think that Karna can't survive the hit? doesn't the Armor negates 90% of hits? And Saber did something similar already with her Excalibur. And Gil isn't the strongest, Karna was on par.

 

[OnePunchSaitama]

@OnePunchSaitama

Karna doesn't have anti world nps.

my bad, wrote by mistake, I miswrote it as anti-world, it's anti divine.

 

[OnePunchSaitama]

Gil never lost to True Archer. He isn't the most op servant either because Grand Servants. Enkidu was broken by Herc because he does stuff that's impossible. Fame stuff is irrelevant, and CQC skill as well because Gil wouldn't try to fight Karna in CQC.
Even with KnK Karna still takes dmg from GoB barrage considering Siegfried could deal minor wounds on him. Karna can use his flames at max setting to tank A+ Nps with his armor but he doesn't have enough maryoku to do stuff like that consistently.

We know that Karna thinks the matchup is 50/50 and that Gil isn't super confident that he can win either. So I don't really see the point of this match. Considering their record is one win for Karna and one win for Gil.

I thought they said he did or was it interuppted by medusa?
By the way if you are talking about impossibles, Karna pushed the weight of universe, was said to be incapable of being defeated even by Supreme diety of Hinduism. The only reason he died was because he was cursed(Thrice), stripped of his weapons, And armor. So yeah he is better than Herc in that category too.
I think so you are talking about copy-Siegfried with command seals. That guy was on steriods.

 

[ZeroOmar]

@OnePounchSaitama

He didn't claim that its unbreakable, he just asked for a proof that MPF can break the chains like herc did which is a possibility just like the fact that the chains will bind karna is also a possibility, so i figured its useless to discuss it more at this point since we won't reach a conclusion. I agree that there is no point in this match since the fight already happened twice with each of them winning once so I'll stick with inconclusive.

 

[OnePunchSaitama]

@OnePounchSaitama
I agree that there is no point in this match since the fight already happened twice with each of them winning once so I'll stick with inconclusive.

On second thoughts I would stick with it then.

 

[BLACKWATHERRR]

About Clairvoyance... Even with EX rank Clairvoyance, its still cant predict the future 100%. Nasuverse version of Pre-cog is a lot a nerf compare to other serius

"― Ah, like a natural disaster aimed at one person in particular, that would be a kind of unforeseen bad luck, too. Precognition isn't seeing the future. You can't see what you can't read."

"…? Precognition isn't seeing the future? But isn't that what they're doing?"

"Like I said, that is prediction at most. For example, let's say there is someone who will be killed two days from now ― Victim A ― and someone who will kill him ― Culprit B. With precognition, you would see the result of this case just by seeing these two aliases. Even though you wouldn't know their faces, their names, and above all, their reasons."

"The hell? If you can know even without a reason, then that's not seeing the future. Isn't that just instinct?"

Even I can do that, said Employee's Friend A, and Aozaki Touko smiled bitterly at her.

"Don't group others with the likes of you, Shiki. What you have is a sixth sense that can reel in the future just by hearing and imagining, whereas precognition has both foundation and proof.

Listen. Humans stand at the peak of the primates, a peak built upon their various cultures and bodies of knowledge. They have evolved not just in bodily functions, but also in the usage of the brain. But, evolution is the process of conforming to the shape of the environment. Functions which are useless or which would burden the act of survival are cut off. If there is a working substitute with a lower cost, then even an excellent function will be stoppered ― that's life. Precognition is nothing more than one of the 'functions originally possessed by humans' which had disappeared in the name of safety. ... Let's go back to the example before.

Victim A and Culprit B; no matter who you look from, you would see the future of 'being killed, killing' with precognition. You would not see the image of the criminal, but you can read out the result even just from A. The is the result gained from reading A's lifestyle patterns, even A's unconscious perception of danger which is unknown to himself ― but if a human is constantly processing this information, he would be crushed. Precognition is an unnecessary power now. Machines which can substitute it have already been invented, and continue to evolve day by day. Eventually, the day may come when we are overtaken by artificial intelligence capable of estimating the formless future."

In Solomon case, even with EX rank, he only knew that humanity would destroyed in certain year, but he didnt know who did it or anything else. Even with the ability to saw the past he didnt notice that Goetia took his body. Not to mentioned he just knew that when he was turning into human. Even Caster Gil who always activeted his Sha Naqbu Imuru, cant 100% know when his city would be destroyed or how he defeat the Tiamat. He only predict something happen in big picture, not much when it come to detail part of the future.

In short, Its not that useful in battle mostly used in nasuverse for story plot (well except Sha Naqbu Imuru other agility that can see the true name and np of his enemy) Its a great ability, but not an OP one

 

[ThisIsMySwagPack]

Like no.

 

[Paul_Frank]

Just want to point out that in same movie or novel the antagonist has a much better precog that creates the future he wants and makes it reality to the point where it's given a shape shiki can cut. So there are more than just that one form of precog in the nasuverse

 

[Xmark12]

I know that this is a necro and extremely outdated, but there should be a rematch of this battle. Vasavi Shakti is Low 2-C now compared to Gil's 5-B Enuma Elish.

 

[Schnee_One]

And that is meaningless because Vasavi Shakti even before the upgrade was 5A to his 5B Ea.

The fight is the exact same and Vasavi's AP was irrelevant

 

[Xmark12]

Oof, well alright then, carry on.