Kamen Rider Heisei and Reiwa: Keys and Upgrades

[Abstractly_a_Protagonist]

I mostly agree with the CRT.
But like the others have said, my qualm remained with the Revice 2-C chain scaling.
Just to make sure, this goes for their base form correct? Then that would mean making the other key of Revice Rider (Barid, Volcano, Ultimate, Holy, Evility, Jeanne, etc) higher or far higher in 2-C then? Just making sure I understand correctly.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

A bit late, but here are the scans for 2-C reasoning:

Muteki is said to be able to withstand the destruction of two universes.

The Kaisers claim that if they become one, then they will be able to survive the destruction. Build and Ex-Aid later defeated them in fusion form.

Legend Riders destroy the Enigma body, which undoes the destruction it has inflicted.

 

[Lonkitt]

Just to make sure, this goes for their base form correct? Then that would mean making the other key of Revice Rider (Barid, Volcano, Ultimate, Holy, Evility, Jeanne, etc) higher or far higher in 2-C then? Just making sure I understand correctly.

That’s correct

 

[Confluctor]

withstand the destruction of two universes.

I watched this twice and don't see anything about it surviving a 2c explosion?

And the other scan too

 

[Jamesthetaker]

I watched this twice and don't see anything about it surviving a 2c explosion?

And the other scan too

The destruction was about to happen, but the heroes sort of prevented it in time. Even if the destruction has yet to happen, the Enigma's pulling two universes together could be a 2-C feat.

In the end, both Muteki and the Kaisers are stated to be able to survive the destruction should it ever happen, so they still scale to 2-C feat anyway.

 

[Lonkitt]

The destruction was about to happen, but the heroes sort of prevented it in time. Even if the destruction has yet to happen, the Enigma's pulling two universes together could be a 2-C feat.

It definitely is the feat since that’s a major plot point of the movie

 

[Confluctor]

The destruction was about to happen, but the heroes sort of prevented it in time. Even if the destruction has yet to happen, the Enigma's pulling two universes together could be a 2-C feat.

I don't think anyone is questioning the AP of them, just the durability of the machine.

 

[Lonkitt]

Stand by. There’s some scans I need to send in here regarding the durability

 

[Lonkitt]

I don't think anyone is questioning the AP of them, just the durability of the machine.

Alright, here it is

 

[Confluctor]

I think Imgur is having issues, so will have to check much later

 

[Lonkitt]

I think Imgur is having issues, so will have to check much later

These will be discord links for the time being, but can you see these? Sorry for the trouble

 

[Confluctor]

Yes, I can see the Discord links, thanks for that. But... I will be honest, I am still kinda struggling how this equates to 2C dura.

The Kaisers claim that if they become one, then they will be able to survive the destruction. Build and Ex-Aid later defeated them in fusion form.

This, btw, also seems like hax thing rather than actually AP/Dura. If there is more evidence, using this I suppose would be more appropriate than the machine.

Here, let me explain;

• In this video, at 1:23, you can see the dude with the bike is doing considerable damage to that black stuff while just going on it.
• And in this video, the people attack the black stuff, causing it to lose footing, thus creating a chain reaction that caused the destruction of the machine itself.

Also, I am kind of lost as to what's happening in this video specifically. I can see the two dudes went and attacked the machine thus causing its destruction? But I still find it doubtful for 2C scaling, I am afraid.

 

[Lonkitt]

Yes, I can see the Discord links, thanks for that. But... I will be honest, I am still kinda struggling how this equates to 2C dura.


This, btw, also seems like hax thing rather than actually AP/Dura. If there is more evidence, using this I suppose would be more appropriate than the machine.

Here, let me explain;

• In this video, at 1:23, you can see the dude with the bike is doing considerable damage to that black stuff while just going on it.
• And in this video, the people attack the black stuff, causing it to lose footing, thus creating a chain reaction that caused the destruction of the machine itself.

Also, I am kind of lost as to what's happening in this video specifically. I can see the two dudes went and attacked the machine thus causing its destruction? But I still find it doubtful for 2C scaling, I am afraid.

Yes, there is explicit proof of the AP/Dura implications. Along with the Bi-Kaisers stating they would in fact survive the mass destruction/death (which is referred to a few times already), there's Sento claiming that the invincibility of Muteki will be needed to stop the Enigma Machine

Regarding the part you're unclear of, Ex-Aid and Build used their Rider Kicks to destroy Bi-Kaiser and the Enigma Machine at once, stopping the combination

I don't see why the evidence I presented doesn't equate to 2-C durability. Its explaining that this merging process is just the beginning of many in the future and the Enigma Machine is going to be a part of each and every one of them. It HAS to be at the epicentre to pull this off, ergo, it can withstand 2-C fusion

 

[Confluctor]

Regarding the part you're unclean of, Ex-Aid and Build used a their Rider Kicks to destroy Bi-Kaiser and the Enigma Machine at once, stopping the combination

I don't see why the evidence I presented doesn't equate to 2-C durability. Its explaining that this merging process is just the beginning of many in the future and the Enigma Machine is going to be a part of each and every one of them. It HAS to be at the epicentre to pull this off, ergo, it can withstand 2-C fusion

As mentioned earlier, I am seeing no proof of 2c dura for the machine.

And as also mentioned earlier, it's a hax thing. It can survive it because of hax. From what I am seeing the evidence sent my way, the world is being rewritten with the merger, not that it would actually destroy both of them and then it will create a new timeline.

0:41 is the only physical destruction thing we see. This obviously happened due to the clash between two large machines.

Also, as you can see, the bike dude was able to do damage, then the other guys destroyed the structure of the black stuff, causing the machine to basically collapse, and then the other two together destroyed it.

 

[Lonkitt]

As mentioned earlier, I am seeing no proof of 2c dura for the machine.

The statements by the Kaisers that I provided are saying that the fusion of worlds will not happen if the machine is destroyed. It is in the epicentre of Ex-Aid's World and Build's World. It is literally pulling these universes together. If it couldn't survive that, it couldn't work. Furthermore, the statements of the Bi-Kaisers going on to replicate the merging of several other universes and dominate them wouldn't make sense if they couldn't even use the Enigma to travel there if it were destroyed by the merging of worlds. It all points to the Enigma having 2-C durability.

Bi-Kaiser proclaims himself as "immortal" many times as he would be able to survive the merging of worlds. We already have statements that Muteki would survive such a fusion. This points to the fact that there would be mass destruction through this process rather than simply haxxing everything. Bi-Kaiser wouldn't speak so much of his immortality if this wasn't truly a process of destruction

 

[Confluctor]

I will get back to this later

 

[Abstractly_a_Protagonist]

That’s correct

Okay, I agree.
The scaling is quite consistent, and it's undeniably canon too.

But why not making a new key for Revice like Zero-One "Legend Rider" key? Sure we can scale Revice AP to Saber Rider because the movie, but as everyone has said above, it's likely Riders beyond Revice and Saber going to scale from them in the future.

 

[Lonkitt]

I will get back to this later

For when you get back, I have further evidence of the destruction

 

[Lonkitt]

But why not making a new key for Revice like Zero-One "Legend Rider" key? Sure we can scale Revice AP to Saber Rider because the movie, but as everyone has said above, it's likely Riders beyond Revice and Saber going to scale from them in the future.

We can't make Legend Rider keys or pages for Riders until their main series comes to a close

 

[Abstractly_a_Protagonist]

We can't make Legend Rider keys or pages for Riders until their main series comes to a close

Oh is that so? I apologize for not knowing.
In any case, I agree with the scaling.

Agree with the OP.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

@Confluctor

The machine was physically pulling two universes together and they would eventually destroy each other with the Enigma Machine at the epicentre. Is that not enough proof that it's 2-C?

 

[Lonkitt]

Again I would like to emphasize that the threat of both worlds being destroyed, and not rewritten, is consistently present in the film:

-We have several statements that the worlds would be destroyed by its creators
-We have the Kaisers themselves going on about how their planned immortality and Muteki's invincibility would be able to survive this destruction
-We know that the Enigma Machine itself must be at the epicentre of the collision and would not function for its sole purpose of destroying two universes at once if it couldn't survive a 2-C feat
-The Kaisers themselves plan to conquer more worlds which lends to how universal collision wouldn't be enough to put the Enigma Machine out of usage
-The universes merging themselves is something that we know is possible through physical means, with the Enigma Machine only being damaged and ultimately destroyed by the Riders
-Sento himself says that Muteki can help prevent the collision through destroying the Enigma Machine
-The film itself even uses symbolism to push the point further of what the ultimate threat that has to be overcome in this film is

The goal is not to create a new timeline. It is pure destruction. The Kaisers never express any desires to start a new timeline and only have megalomaniacal goals in mind

 

[Confluctor]

@Confluctor

The machine was physically pulling two universes together and they would eventually destroy each other with the Enigma Machine at the epicentre. Is that not enough proof that it's 2-C?

My issue is this; there is nothing that proves it's surviving this destruction due to pure force and moreso to do with Hax.

This is a time merger, ofc the other worlds are going to be """destroyed""". And also, the dudes destroyed the machine after the other guys created a chain reaction which messed with it greatly. It's virtually impossible to quantify it rn, even if it was 2c Dura at peak.

 

[Lonkitt]

My issue is this; there is nothing that proves it's surviving this destruction due to pure force and moreso to do with Hax.

This is a time merger, ofc the other worlds are going to be """destroyed""". And also, the dudes destroyed the machine after the other guys created a chain reaction which messed with it greatly. It's virtually impossible to quantify it rn, even if it was 2c Dura at peak.

What? It’s not a time merger. Where did you get that idea? Also the fusion of the universes was still well underway after the arms were damaged, so it simply isn’t the nonexistent “chain reaction” doing all the work. Muteki was the one to put this to rest. OOO, Fourze, Gaim, and Ghost destroyed the arms of the machine

There’s countless statements I’ve provided that the worlds would actually be destroyed. Not words are being minced it’s straight up being stated over and over and over

 

[Lonkitt]

I’m confused at what you’re trying to say here at this point because we’ve explained several times that this machine was physically pulling two universes together, but you instead say it’s a time merger that’s making a new timeline despite how that’s never stated (as well as the fact that it goes against the goal of the Bi-Kaisers which is to blatantly destroy both Ex-Aid’s Universe and Build’s Universe, standing as the sole survivors with their power as Bi-Kaiser) and the movie makes it clear that both universes will in fact be destroyed if the Enigma Machine isn’t stopped, with it only being completely stopped after Hyper Muteki destroys it

This is not impossible to quantify. Please look over the scans I’ve gathered again because the movie makes it clear this is blatantly 2-C AP/Dura

 

[Nicetoderp]

My issue is this; there is nothing that proves it's surviving this destruction due to pure force and moreso to do with Hax.

My you directed to the scan in which hax is apply?

I watched the movies several times and I vividly remembered Gentaro (Fourze) blowing it up.

While yes, Build did messed up the collision of the universe, he didn't really weakened the machine or anything. He just make the Bi-Kaiser fusion form being weaker than what it is supposed to be.

 

[Lonkitt]

The additions have been approved so I will begin applying them

 

[Lonkitt]

@Sir_Ovens

I've applied the revisions, so this can be closed now

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

To make sure, from now on every Reiwa Riders start from Revice would be 2-C?

 

[Lonkitt]

To make sure, from now on every Reiwa Riders start from Revice would be 2-C?

No. If new Riders happen to scale to 2-C in a valid manner, then they will of course get that ranking. But just because Revice is 2-C does not mean the entire Reiwa Era will only have 2-Cs

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

No. If new Riders happen to scale to 2-C in a valid manner, then they will of course get that ranking. But just because Revice is 2-C does not mean the entire Reiwa Era will only have 2-Cs

Right but i dunno, with the example of Beyond Generation scaling, 2-C Geats might be guarranted in the winter movie

 

[Lonkitt]

Right but i dunno, with the example of Beyond Generation scaling, 2-C Geats might be guarranted in the winter movie

Regardless, to simply say "all Reiwa Riders will be 2-C onward" would be a reckless estimation for the wiki as we truly have no clue what to expect from this relatively new era of Kamen Rider

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Regardless, to simply say "all Reiwa Riders will be 2-C onward" would be a reckless estimation for the wiki as we truly have no clue what to expect from this relatively new era of Kamen Rider

But the chance is really high tbh

 

[Lonkitt]

For Geats, I think the chance is very high. For the Riders after Geats, it's currently up in the air. We can't make any calls, but Geats definitely has a high chance

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

For Geats, I think the chance is very high. For the Riders after Geats, it's currently up in the air. We can't make any calls, but Geats definitely has a high chance

Yeah, thats why i'm worried for and why i really against the 2-C scaling

 

[Lonkitt]

Unfortunately, we can't really ignore it if the scaling is legitimate unless its something like Double vs AR Shadow Moon or the Shinkenger Decade crossover

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

I really don't think it's legitinate at all but i really can't convince you guys so f*** me with my disapprove card

 

[BERRIES555]

I just realized, shouldn’t Revice also have Class T LS

 

[Lonkitt]

I’ll handle it

Thanks again to everyone for their help

EDIT: The LS additions have been applied

 

[Abstractly_a_Protagonist]

Another question.
So Deadman gets 2-C dura then? Because I saw the application; Low Multiverse level for Vice (When materialized by Ikki, he was able to send the Rex Deadman flying with one punch)

It sounded like harming a genome deadman monster makes one have 2-C AP.