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Lonkitt

He/Him
VS Battles
Retired
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This is going over a number of different things I've wanted to cover for our Kamen Rider pages. Some are slight changes while others a bit larger in the grand scheme of things

Kamen Rider Agito
So we have a few different keys for the speed of Agito Riders. My suggestion is for all of them to just scale to the MFTL+ feat from Teos. The reason being is that unlike some other Riders across seasons, the speed scaling relatively stays the same. For example, G3-X and Gills could keep up with Shining Agito as well as some Lords who could do the same. While there are certainly differences in strength across forms, speed doesn't seem to require the same level of differing.

Kamen Rider OOO
I would like to adjust the keys for OOO. I would first like to state that I think his tiering is fine, but his Post-Series key is currently placed at 2-C. While down the Post-Series road he does reach 2-C, that is during Heisei Generations FINAL. During the events of Fourze x OOO, he's High 4-C. Because of this, I think his keys should be altered. Let me show you what that would be like:

Attack Potency: 9-B | 7-B | 5-B | At least 5-B, higher with Ground of Rage and Lost Blaze | High 4-C | 2-C | 2-C, far higher as Tajador Eternity

Attack Potency: Wall level (Has fought those who can harm him. Dented metal plating with a single punch. Can fight against several Pseudo Yummies, which are capable of heavily cracking a concrete cross grave with just a hug and likely would have destroyed it had it not been interfered with, which would result in this. Once transformed into Kamen Rider Birth and fought in said form meaning his body met the physical demands to properly utilize the Birth system which would make Eiji comparable to Shintaro Goto) | City level (Soundly defeated the Luna Dopant, who could harm and restrain Double). Medajaribur's OOO Bash ignores conventional durability | Planet level (Was capable of staggering, and then using all of his Complete Combos to destroy Dragon Gara, who in his current state had gained the power of "True OOO", planning to destroy and recreate the Earth, with his power being enough of a threat for each Greeed to lend Eiji their Core Medals as to avoid the destruction of the planet). Medajaribur's OOO Bash ignores conventional durability | At least Planet level (Stronger than before), higher with Ground of Rage and Lost Blaze (One-shot Maki, who could defeat OOO using Putotyra. Lost Blaze destroyed both Maki and the Medal Vessel). Medajaribur's OOO Bash ignore conventional durability | Large Star level (Once attaining the form of Super Tatoba, OOO could easily damage Super GingaOh who was capable of harming a beginning of series Fourze. Went on to destroy Super GingaOh alongside Fourze). Medajaribur's Triple Scanning Charge ignores conventional durability | Low Multiverse level (Helped destroy the Enigma Machine, which was responsible for the merging of two universes). Medajaribur's OOO Bash ignores conventional durability | Low Multiverse level (Stronger than before), far higher as Tajador Eternity (Far stronger than before, completely overpowered and stomped Kamen Rider Goda, whose power well surpassed even that of the Greeed-Absorbed King OOO, who effortlessly defeated normal OOO even before absorbing the Greeeds). Medajaribur's OOO Bash ignores conventional durability

Keys: Eiji Hino | BoS OOO (Episodes 1-16) | MoS OOO (Episodes 17-38) | EoS OOO (Episodes 39-48) | Post-Series | Heisei Generations FINAL | OOO 10th: Core Medal of Resurrection

So yeah. This is just done to avoid further confusion since before HGF, OOO is on the same level as BoS Fourze


Kamen Rider Fourze
Since the speed scaling for OOO has changed quite a bit as time's gone on, we need to change Fourze's speed ratings as he scales to Post-Series OOO

Speed: Peak Human | At least FTL reactions and combat speed (Comparable to OOO), Massively Hypersonic flight and travel speed (With Rocket Switch and other switches, Fourze could easily reached the outer space in short time. With his bike, Fourze could achieved the same feat as Rocket Switch) | At least FTL reactions and combat speed (Faster than before) | At least FTL, likely higher | At least FTL, likely higher

Pretty simple stuff.


Kamen Rider Saber
In a previous Ghost revision, Ghost and Specter received new keys as a result of scaling to Solomon Arc Saber. However, given there was comparability between the Riders here, the Saber speed scaling should be upgraded. Characters in the Solomon Arc end up scaling to the speed of the Riders from Ghost, so Riders such as Saber can be ranked "At least FTL" as of the Solomon Arc.


Kamen Rider Revice
Okay, this is probably the biggest part of the revision. This is the proposal that Revice Riders should scale to End of Series/Storious Arc Saber Riders. A bold idea, but not without merit. The first case of evidence is the 48th episode of Saber. The Batta Deadman appears and actually takes quite a few hits from Saber and Blade with little trouble on two different occassions. Revi and Vice end up destroying the Batta Deadman. Then there's Kamen Rider: Beyond Generations, which is a canonical crossover movie involving several Revice Riders and Saber Riders fighting alongside each other and combatting the same threats. This furthermore backs up the consistency of scaling to Saber. So what would this mean? Would we be getting rid of the Revice keys? Well, not quite, those still seem pretty reliable given how Revice power scaling works. Its just that the ratings would change to 2-C with relevant "higher with [insert form here]" applied. Admittedly, this is also much more clean and reliable than the current Revice scaling chain if you ask me.


Overviewing the Proposals
  • All Riders in Agito scale to Teos' Massively FTL+ feat
  • OOO gets a High 4-C key between his EoS and Heisei Generation FINAL keys
  • Fourze gets speed upgrades starting at "At least FTL" for BoS
  • Saber Riders become "At least FTL" as of the Solomon Arc
  • Revice Riders scale to 2-C from the Storious Arc Saber Riders

Thoughts?
 
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all looks good, also i remember in an another thread that saber scaling to revice would be an outlier but i do agree with 2-C revice especially since revice scaling to saber is consistent

shouldnt Fourze's LS be class 5 due to scaling to OOO?
 
I agree but one thing to note.

We have to keep in mind one thing with scaling Revice to 2-C. Scaling them means that every rider beyond Revice is going to be 2-C from now on. Saber and Revice are going to scale to each other and they are VERY likely going to be a big part of Reiwa Era moving forward. This means Kamen Rider is stronger as a whole and we can make profiles for everyone through scaling but there's gonna be less potential matches involving the Reiwa Era riders.
 
Scaling them means that every rider beyond Revice is going to be 2-C from now on. Saber and Revice are going to scale to each other and they are VERY likely going to be a big part of Reiwa Era moving forward. This means Kamen Rider is stronger as a whole and we can make profiles for everyone through scaling but there's gonna be less potential matches involving the Reiwa Era riders.
Well one thing we have to take into account is that despite consistent crossovers from Toei, scaling like this isn’t always present in Kamen Rider. For example, it didn’t happen between Zero-One and Saber and there’s a few examples I can bring up for Heisei seasons

As for the matchup thing, that isn’t a concern. The main priority of our profiles is to be accurate rather than be suited for a wider range of matchups. I see what you’re saying though
 
Well one thing we have to take into account is that despite consistent crossovers from Toei, scaling like this isn’t always present in Kamen Rider. For example, it didn’t happen between Zero-One and Saber and there’s a few examples I can bring up for Heisei seasons
I personally think Toei is going a new direction with connecting the riders with specials such as Revice: The Mystery and Thouser x Genm. Geats already connected with Revice with his debut in Battle Familia which would make Geats 2-C if Geats continues to be consistent with Revice (which it will be due to Winter movie). We'll see though.

As for the matchup thing, that isn’t a concern. The main priority of our profiles is to be accurate rather than be suited for a wider range of matchups. I see what you’re saying though
I don't know about the accurate part mainly because I think Toei themselves aren't consistent with their scaling. There are so many inconsistencies in the Saber x Revice stuff. I wouldn't even say Revice were the ones having outliers, I think the Saber riders were the ones that have outliers ever since episode 47 ended.
 
I don't know about the accurate part mainly because I think Toei themselves aren't consistent with their scaling. There are so many inconsistencies in the Saber x Revice stuff. I wouldn't even say Revice were the ones having outliers, I think the Saber riders were the ones that have outliers ever since episode 47 ended.
I don’t honestly think Beyond Generations had any huge inconsistencies. The only one I could maybe think of is the Replicas Riders but those were only imitations and weren’t actually portrayals of the past Riders’ powers. Saber didn’t even really feel inconsistent in that movie either. Everyone seemed to be around everyone’s level which is pretty much where Saber scaling ends off before the timeskip happens and there’s an Espada movie (plus you have to remember that the type of Deadmans that gave the Saber cast a run for their money isn’t that ridiculous when you remember that the Batta Deadman could sponge some attacks from Saber and Blades). It’s definitely not a Double beating AR Shadow Moon situation thankfully

Regarding Geats, he didn’t actually fight anyone that would’ve made him 2-C, just a bunch of fodder. The Winter movie might change that, but for now, his power level is up in the air
 
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I don’t honestly think Beyond Generations had any huge inconsistencies. The only one I could maybe think of is the Replicas Riders but those were only imitations and weren’t actually portrayals of the past Riders’ powers. Saber didn’t even really feel inconsistent in that movie either. Everyone seemed to be around everyone’s level which is pretty much where Saber scaling ends off before the timeskip happens and there’s an Espada movie (plus you have to remember that the type of Deadmans that gave the Saber cast a run for their money isn’t that ridiculous when you remember that the Batta Deadman could sponge some attacks from Saber and Blades). It’s definitely not a Double beating AR Shadow Moon situation thankfully

Regarding Geats, he didn’t actually fight anyone that would’ve made him 2-C, just a bunch of fodder. The Winter movie might change that, but for now, his power level is up in the air
I'm talking more about how the Saber riders were portrayed in the Beyond Gen movie. Sabela and Durendal were losing to Giff Juniors while using no abilities. Also, when Saber and Espada had a harder time dealing with a Phase 1 Deadman than Saber and Blades had dealing with Century Break who can go toe to toe with Diablo.
 
I'm talking more about how the Saber riders were portrayed in the Beyond Gen movie. Sabela and Durendal were losing to Giff Juniors while using no abilities. Also, when Saber and Espada had a harder time dealing with a Phase 1 Deadman than Saber and Blades had dealing with Century Break who can go toe to toe with Diablo.
I can't remember Sabela and Durendal struggling with Giff Juniors. I remember they had a hard time dealing with the movie specific Deadmans that were pretty much stronger than the ones Revi and Vice were dealing with every week
 
I can't remember Sabela and Durendal struggling with Giff Juniors. I remember they had a hard time dealing with the movie specific Deadmans that were pretty much stronger than the ones Revi and Vice were dealing with every week
Sabela and Durendal were against the Deadman Generals and then against Giff Juniors in the final fight. The rest where against the movie specific villains called Crispers.

Anyhow, if everyone agrees to it scaling, then I would be okay with it.
 
I agree with all of these.

Also, I honestly think that Agito Riders, or at least Shining Agito, should scale to Teos's lifting strength. Considering that we scale Teos's feat of moving the stars to his AP, there is no reason to separate LS from AP since it's basically the same feat.
 
I think making a new key called "Post-Time Skip" for G3-X and Gills maybe warranted. We can safely assume Agito is High 4-C because of Shining Form but before the time-skip, he was far ahead of everyone else. It is after the time-skip where G3-X and Exceed Gills was able to fight Teos and El Lords alongside Agito on equal footing. G3-X being able to 1 v 2 against The El Lords and make them struggle.
 
Well one thing we have to take into account is that despite consistent crossovers from Toei, scaling like this isn’t always present in Kamen Rider. For example, it didn’t happen between Zero-One and Saber and there’s a few examples I can bring up for Heisei seasons
Laughs in Izu being in Jeanne and Aguilera

On a serious note, I agree with the changes.
 
Not part of the OP, but I would like us to add citations to the scans of Decade, Zi-O, and etc. This is especially important for the cosmology scans.
 
I.....honestly really against the scaling 2-C for Revice Riders at all, i honestly take that as a PIS like the Batta Deadman thing and Beyond Generation
 
I mean Sabela is in Jeanne and Aguilera. There's almost no inconsistency in scaling them to Saber. Beyond Generations is very canon as it's blatantly referenced in the main series.
 
Yeah, until the Revice Riders scaling are concluded from me, i suggesting to hold this revision as i'm going to die in this hill until i disapprove that PIS scaling
 
I mean Sabela is in Jeanne and Aguilera. There's almost no inconsistency in scaling them to Saber. Beyond Generations is very canon as it's blatantly referenced in the main series.
Thats honestly just an baseless excuse, how about we wait for the spin-off showed up and we talk?
And i know beyond generation is canon but the scaling is a big no
 
This is kinda how I felt when EoS Saber was upgraded to 2-C. Overall, they are stronger and they are where they should be. Yet another part of me was sad that EoS Saber meant that Xross Saber will probably never get a match or never enter a tournament. I would've loved to debate for Xross Saber.
 
Thats honestly just an baseless excuse, how about we wait for the spin-off showed up and we talk?
And i know beyond generation is canon but the scaling is a big no
You haven't brought up how Saber Episode 48 adds to the consistency given that Beyond Generations is a relatively long movie that backs up how Saber and Revice characters are time and time again around the same level. Also while we can't really vouch for the crossover special coming up until it actually is released, it will undoubtedly have some upgrades if not adding consistency to 2-C Revice

This isn't a case of Double appearing in the Decade movie and having an extremely small fight despite being canon. In Beyond Generations, the characters are constantly interacting and fighting alongside each other. Its a completely different, and much more reliable example of scaling free from PIS
 
You haven't brought up how Saber Episode 48 adds to the consistency given that Beyond Generations is a relatively long movie that backs up how Saber and Revice characters are time and time again around the same level. Also while we can't really vouch for the crossover special coming up until it actually is released, it will undoubtedly have some upgrades if not adding consistency to 2-C Revice

This isn't a case of Double appearing in the Decade movie and having an extremely small fight despite being canon. In Beyond Generations, the characters are constantly interacting and fighting alongside each other. Its a completely different, and much more reliable example of scaling free from PIS
I'm still unsure, even with all of that reasoning it still fall to PIS category
 
I'm still unsure, even with all of that reasoning it still fall to PIS category
Is there any reason for us to call it PIS? All of the evidence I have presented is consistent ergo it isn’t the kind of PIS we’ve seen in Kamen Rider. There’s more showings in favour of 2-C Revice than there is against it too
 
Is there any reason for us to call it PIS? All of the evidence I have presented is consistent ergo it isn’t the kind of PIS we’ve seen in Kamen Rider
Yeah, the Batta Deadman thing was just for promotion and showing what Revice can capable do
In Beyond Generation only Century and Xross Saber that do a meaningful damage to the antagonist, Revice only for the cheerleading stuff
 
Yeah, the Batta Deadman thing was just for promotion and showing what Revice can capable do
In Beyond Generation only Century and Xross Saber that do a meaningful damage to the antagonist, Revice only for the cheerleading stuff
Revice certainly isn’t “only cheerleading” similar to Build in the finale battle of HGF. We literally see the Revice Riders do the same kind of damage to foes that are Saber Rider level. Several times in fact. This isn’t a case of Revice just throwing in some extra ineffective attacks

As for the Batta Deadman, yes the 48th episode does act as a bridge over into Revice, but the Deadman had two different interactions with Saber Riders and still sponged their attacks. It’s more consistent than simply a mere cameo
 
Revice certainly isn’t “only cheerleading” similar to Build in the finale battle of HGF. We literally see the Revice Riders do the same kind of damage to foes that are Saber Rider level. Several times in fact. This isn’t a case of Revice just throwing in some extra ineffective attacks

As for the Batta Deadman, yes the 48th episode does act as a bridge over into Revice, but the Deadman had two different interactions with Saber Riders and still sponged their attacks. It’s more consistent than simply a mere cameo
Proof of that? The Revice Riders are only there just for rules of cool or something like that

Had two different interactions with Saber Riders is consistent? How the f*** thats counted as consistency?
 
Proof of that? The Revice Riders are only there just for rules of cool or something like that

Had two different interactions with Saber Riders is consistent? How the f*** thats counted as consistency?
A) “Rule of cool” isn’t applicable here, especially not the way you’re trying to say it as it isn’t phrased as an actual point. Proof of scaling is literally littered through the movie….seriously, there’s several opponents that the Revice Riders competently do battle with/harm that have fought the Saber Riders. The movie is full of that stuff

B) Yes, it is consistent because that was the Batta Deadman’s only appearance. Saying that’s not consistent is like saying Eternal being superior to Xtreme Double isn’t consistent because he was only portrayed as such in one movie
 
A) “Rule of cool” isn’t applicable here, especially not the way you’re trying to say it as it isn’t phrased as an actual point. Proof of scaling is literally littered through the movie….seriously, there’s several opponents that the Revice Riders competently do battle with/harm that have fought the Saber Riders. The movie is full of that stuff

B) Yes, it is consistent because that was the Batta Deadman’s only appearance. Saying that’s not consistent is like saying Eternal being superior to Xtreme Double isn’t consistent because he was only portrayed as such in one movie
I'm still not gonna buy on that one now, so i'm still with my hard disagree-card
 
Does the machine actually have 2c durability? Seems like the machine has hax/ap to merge 2 unis, but doesn't mean it can withstand a 2c attack
We went over this in pervious threads, but yes, it canonically was going to survive the merging of two universes that it was responsible for

2-C for OOO was added around two months back and I’m only really showing all his ratings to give and example of how his page would look with the High 4-C rating
 
I still have a lot's of issue with EoS Saber-Revice Riders scaling but i'm too tired right now so agree or disagree lel

Also just in case, the rest beside that scaling? I agreed with it
 
Elaborate please. Or link to thread where it got accepted?


The second link is more relevant to the Engima Machine’s durability. The condensed version is that the Engima Machine not only would’ve survived the merging, but required the power of somebody like Hyper Muteki Ex-Aid to destroy it as stated by one of its creators (Takumi Katsuragi)
 
Not really getting the vibe that its Dura actually scales to its hax, and by extension ap. See, the thing is, you don't need special durability as a machine to survive merging two timelines. I have seen a machine capable of turning a 1A structure into something far smaller and could be destroyed by like a tier 7 - or lower - dude.

in that thread, you mentioned that it was stated it could survive the merging, can I get the scans for that? I want to see what it actually says in the original material.
 
Not really getting the vibe that its Dura actually scales to its hax, and by extension ap. See, the thing is, you don't need special durability as a machine to survive merging two timelines. I have seen a machine capable of turning a 1A structure into something far smaller and could be destroyed by like a tier 7 - or lower - dude.

in that thread, you mentioned that it was stated it could survive the merging, can I get the scans for that? I want to see what it actually says in the original material.
I can grab scans later, but not at this very instant, though I will say that this is a case of the machine literally being at the epicentre of the merging, it isn’t doing this from a distance where it can’t be touched. About to handle something. In the meantime, do you have any thoughts regarding the proposals of the thread? 2-C HGF isn’t relevant to that
 
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