Kaguya's ETSO The Final Chapter: Part 1, Episode 2

[Godernet]

Yeah we need to talk about this jutsu,

There has been a spike in the amount of conversation surrounding this jutsu in recent months and it has been a pretty controversial topic for the past 10 years since it was shown in the manga that everyone and their mother has a different opinion about.

Recent CRTs about the Topic

https://vsbattles.com/threads/revising-the-kaguya-etso-note-for-accuracy-and-updating.171615/

https://vsbattles.com/threads/4-b-kaguya-this-is-useless-and-im-wasting-my-time.172315/

https://vsbattles.com/threads/kaguya-in-naruto-has-l2c.171543/

https://vsbattles.com/threads/kaguya-in-naruto-has-l2c-part-2.171771/

https://vsbattles.com/threads/universal-naruto-hax-crt.169980/

https://vsbattles.com/threads/majestic-attire-susano-is-far-stronger-than-we-thought.164085/

https://vsbattles.com/threads/majestic-attire-susano-is-far-stronger-than-we-thought.164085/

Not only have most of these threads been rejected, with premises that have been rejected many times in the past, but these are only the ones that have happened this year, not to mention this probably isn't all of them.

Spoiler: Why do the ETSO CRTs keep getting rejected?

Simply put, the logic behind trying to use them for Tier 4 and Tier 2 Ninjutsu and Physicals for lesser characters just doesn't work with what we currently have available in the series.

• The Naruto Verse just isn't a UES (Universal Power System) anymore, for all the reasons KingTempest has already discussed in a previous thread.
• Kaguya gathered the Chakra from every Shinobi in Infinite Tsukuyomi, and became exponentially stronger just from absorbing a piece of what she was feeding into the Expansive Truth Seeking Orb over a completely unquantifiable amount of time to reach the potential destruction Zetsu stated it would be capable of having.
• The Boruto Series has recently unveiled a Jutsu that at the very least based off what we currently know, hovers around the Planetary Levels of power due to it mechanically being primarily comprised of the rotational Energy of the Planet Earth which was calced by Arc7Kuroi, with the characters this jutsu harmed in the manga such as Code and Hidari being much stronger than the Shippuden God Tiers (All greatly stronger than Jigen, who obliterated Adult Naruto and Sasuke who are > their younger selves.)

Spoiler: What Should be Done about ETSO?

Frankly the goal of this thread isn't to say where ETSO should end up valuewise nor that it is completely impossible for any character to scale to ETSO, nor that everyone Pre-Boruto TBV should be capped at 600 ZTs.

However, I don't think there have been any good arguments for why ETSO can scale to Shippuden GTs or even the stronger characters in the earlier parts of Boruto: Naruto Next Generations, who still feel Kaguya is a viable threat to them, physically or with Ninjutsu outside of incredulity and kinda just ignoring the context of the jutsu a bit.

So for the sake of sealing away an already exhausted topic on this site, I'm proposing a Discussion Rule.

After all, we already have this on Kaguya's page and yet threads on the topic are still spammed very often.

Note: Attempts to scale Kaguya to her Expansive Truth-Seeking Orb (ETSO) attack have been consistently rejected in past discussions. It is important to note that Chakra, as an energy system, does not meet the requirements for Universal Energy System (UES). Furthermore, there are no recognized feats or official statements that directly link the physical capabilities of characters to the ETSO attack.

Spoiler: Discussion Rule

Of course a discussion rule isn't necessarily permanent but it will limit a lot of recycled CRTs and disputes about a topic that hasnt really been given any new information in the 10 years since it was used by Kaguya.

I don't intend to bar every character from scaling, however characters on Kaguya's level or weaker should be barred for obvious reasons.

The Discussion Rule would look something like:

Until new information is provided by the series, do not attempt to directly scale the ninjutsu or physical stats of Kaguya Otsutsuki, as well as other characters on her level or weaker, to the overtime capabilities of the Expansive Truth-Seeking Orb. The topic has been discussed many times over the years and has been deemed contradictory to the context of the jutsu's creation and inconsistent with other showings of power performed or stated by other characters in the verse that hold relative/superior power to Kaguya herself.

Of course, if you have any gripes with the rule or the phrasing, or the arguments, that can be discussed below as well.

As always lets be chill when discussing this.

Votes

Agree: LordTracer, Arc7Kuroi, MasqueTLDR, Bastolan27, KingTempest,


Neutral:


Disagree:

 

[LordTracer]

I could’ve sworn we had a discussion rule for this already, and I completely agree that we should have one.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

FRAing this thread cuz the cabal is a hive mind and I can’t think for myself.

 

[MasqueTLDF]

Agree FRB

 

[Bastolan27]

Agree, FRA and FRB.

 

[KingTempest]

Looks good

 

[Samlex1234]

Disagree. Will reply later

 

[Samlex1234]

Please don't close this fast, as the op tackled a lot of things. Honestly, the fact that you got two admins to agree this fast is disheartening. Never the less we move

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Threads have a 48 hour dwell time anyway. This ain’t going away tomorrow relax buddy

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Would this prevent CRTs that say momo and kinshiki should be above that since kaguya post IT absorption in the war arc produced the entire tso near instantly so characters that dwarf her would be above her all her FP attacks, (even without the etso im assuming she puts that chakra amount into something else like the god hand thingy)

or is it only against shippuden characters

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I agree.

 

[DavidTPPM]

The Discussion Rule would look something like:

Until new information is provided by the series, do not attempt to directly scale the ninjutsu or physical stats of Kaguya Otsutsuki, as well as other characters on her level or weaker, to the overtime capabilities of the Expansive Truth-Seeking Orb. The topic has been discussed many times over the years and has been deemed contradictory to the context of the jutsu's creation and inconsistent with other showings of power performed or stated by other characters in the verse that hold relative/superior power to Kaguya herself.

Inb4 people start scaling Kaguyas and other people's physicals ABOVE the ETSO instead to it to bypass the rule

 

[MinatoSparkle]

I think if the rule is rephrased to using new arguments (and giving a list of common arguments) rather than new information, it'd be better

 

[Ryzen7900X]

@AlternativePrinciple

 

[Samlex1234]

I will address each argument individually. If any admin chooses to vote ‘yes’ without countering my points, I will escalate the matter to their superiors. This action is not based on bias but rather on their failure to respond to valid counterarguments.

This is my first argument to tackle the below

“The topic has been discussed many times over the years”

https://vsbattles.com/threads/revising-the-kaguya-etso-note-for-accuracy-and-updating.171615/


I created this thread several months ago because the existing discussion rule was fundamentally flawed. Here’s the rule in question:

“The attempts to scale Kaguya to her Expansive Truth-Seeking Ball (ETSB) have been rejected many times. The primary reason is that this attack requires a chakra amount far greater than her own, and scaling her ordinary stats to it is inconsistent with her performance against Naruto and Sasuke, who each possess only half of Hagoromo’s chakra.”


It has recently been recognized that this rule has been incorrect for over four years. Just because a majority supports a claim does not make it true. The notion that something is automatically valid due to popular acceptance is misguided. It’s unreasonable to dismiss critiques when the foundation of such rules is based on insufficient evidence, especially on a wiki that is widely regarded as a leading source for VS battles.

When foundational arguments are flawed, it’s natural for people to raise concerns and propose changes. The argument that just because something has been repeatedly discussed or accepted over time means it is valid is fundamentally flawed. I identified faults in the old scaling, which has now been debunked. This led me to create a CRT to challenge a rule that had persisted for over four years, demonstrating that longevity does not equate to correctness.

Ad Populum Fallacy


If this CRT is accepted without my arguments being countered I will create another CRT. because you can accept or disagree means nothing if you are wrong, people will always see the wrong and try to change it.

 

[DavidTPPM]

I think if the rule is rephrased to using new arguments (and giving a list of common arguments) rather than new information, it'd be better

This is true. The issue with the topic isn't necessarily that it keeps getting brought up and rejected by that the arguments for it are always the same

 

[Samlex1234]

contradictory to the context of the jutsu's creation

Yeah we need to talk about this jutsu,

There has been a spike in the amount of conversation surrounding this jutsu in recent months and it has been a pretty controversial topic for the past 10 years since it was shown in the manga that everyone and their mother has a different opinion about.

Recent CRTs about the Topic

https://vsbattles.com/threads/revising-the-kaguya-etso-note-for-accuracy-and-updating.171615/

https://vsbattles.com/threads/4-b-kaguya-this-is-useless-and-im-wasting-my-time.172315/

https://vsbattles.com/threads/kaguya-in-naruto-has-l2c.171543/

https://vsbattles.com/threads/kaguya-in-naruto-has-l2c-part-2.171771/

https://vsbattles.com/threads/universal-naruto-hax-crt.169980/

https://vsbattles.com/threads/majestic-attire-susano-is-far-stronger-than-we-thought.164085/

https://vsbattles.com/threads/majestic-attire-susano-is-far-stronger-than-we-thought.164085/

Not only have most of these threads been rejected, with premises that have been rejected many times in the past, but these are only the ones that have happened this year, not to mention this probably isn't all of them.

Spoiler: Why do the ETSO CRTs keep getting rejected?

Simply put, the logic behind trying to use them for Tier 4 and Tier 2 Ninjutsu and Physicals for lesser characters just doesn't work with what we currently have available in the series.

• The Naruto Verse just isn't a UES (Universal Power System) anymore, for all the reasons KingTempest has already discussed in a previous thread.
• Kaguya gathered the Chakra from every Shinobi in Infinite Tsukuyomi, and became exponentially stronger just from absorbing a piece of what she was feeding into the Expansive Truth Seeking Orb over a completely unquantifiable amount of time to reach the potential destruction Zetsu stated it would be capable of having.
• The Boruto Series has recently unveiled a Jutsu that at the very least based off what we currently know, hovers around the Planetary Levels of power due to it mechanically being primarily comprised of the rotational Energy of the Planet Earth which was calced by Arc7Kuroi, with the characters this jutsu harmed in the manga such as Code and Hidari being much stronger than the Shippuden God Tiers (All greatly stronger than Jigen, who obliterated Adult Naruto and Sasuke who are > their younger selves.)

Spoiler: What Should be Done about ETSO?

Frankly the goal of this thread isn't to say where ETSO should end up valuewise nor that it is completely impossible for any character to scale to ETSO, nor that everyone Pre-Boruto TBV should be capped at 600 ZTs.

However, I don't think there have been any good arguments for why ETSO can scale to Shippuden GTs or even the stronger characters in the earlier parts of Boruto: Naruto Next Generations, who still feel Kaguya is a viable threat to them, physically or with Ninjutsu outside of incredulity and kinda just ignoring the context of the jutsu a bit.

So for the sake of sealing away an already exhausted topic on this site, I'm proposing a Discussion Rule.

After all, we already have this on Kaguya's page and yet threads on the topic are still spammed very often.

Note: Attempts to scale Kaguya to her Expansive Truth-Seeking Orb (ETSO) attack have been consistently rejected in past discussions. It is important to note that Chakra, as an energy system, does not meet the requirements for Universal Energy System (UES). Furthermore, there are no recognized feats or official statements that directly link the physical capabilities of characters to the ETSO attack.

Spoiler: Discussion Rule

Of course a discussion rule isn't necessarily permanent but it will limit a lot of recycled CRTs and disputes about a topic that hasnt really been given any new information in the 10 years since it was used by Kaguya.

I don't intend to bar every character from scaling, however characters on Kaguya's level or weaker should be barred for obvious reasons.

The Discussion Rule would look something like:

Until new information is provided by the series, do not attempt to directly scale the ninjutsu or physical stats of Kaguya Otsutsuki, as well as other characters on her level or weaker, to the overtime capabilities of the Expansive Truth-Seeking Orb. The topic has been discussed many times over the years and has been deemed contradictory to the context of the jutsu's creation and inconsistent with other showings of power performed or stated by other characters in the verse that hold relative/superior power to Kaguya herself.

Of course, if you have any gripes with the rule or the phrasing, or the arguments, that can be discussed below as well.

As always lets be chill when discussing this.

Votes

Agree: LordTracer, Arc7Kuroi, MasqueTLDR, Bastolan27, KingTempest,


Neutral:


Disagree:

Why is this an argument , please expand

• Kaguya gathered the Chakra from every Shinobi in Infinite Tsukuyomi, and became exponentially stronger just from absorbing a piece of what she was feeding into the Expansive Truth Seeking Orb over a completely unquantifiable amount of time to reach the potential destruction Zetsu stated it would be capable of having.

 

[DavidTPPM]

contradictory to the context of the jutsu's creation

Why is this an argument , please expand

• Kaguya gathered the Chakra from every Shinobi in Infinite Tsukuyomi, and became exponentially stronger just from absorbing a piece of what she was feeding into the Expansive Truth Seeking Orb over a completely unquantifiable amount of time to reach the potential destruction Zetsu stated it would be capable of having.

I think you're spamming the thread too much. Try to compose your arguments into a single comment and let the opposition respond

 

[Samlex1234]

I think you're spamming the thread too much. Try to compose your arguments into a single comment and let the opposition respond

They are two separate arguments. I prefer to tackle them separately.

 

[Robo432343]

They are two separate arguments. I prefer to tackle them separately.

You can do that in a single post

 

[Ryzen7900X]

I will address each argument individually. If any admin chooses to vote ‘yes’ without countering my points, I will escalate the matter to their superiors. This action is not based on bias but rather on their failure to respond to valid counterarguments.

This is my first argument to tackle the below

“The topic has been discussed many times over the years”

https://vsbattles.com/threads/revising-the-kaguya-etso-note-for-accuracy-and-updating.171615/


I created this thread several months ago because the existing discussion rule was fundamentally flawed. Here’s the rule in question:

“The attempts to scale Kaguya to her Expansive Truth-Seeking Ball (ETSB) have been rejected many times. The primary reason is that this attack requires a chakra amount far greater than her own, and scaling her ordinary stats to it is inconsistent with her performance against Naruto and Sasuke, who each possess only half of Hagoromo’s chakra.”


It has recently been recognized that this rule has been incorrect for over four years. Just because a majority supports a claim does not make it true. The notion that something is automatically valid due to popular acceptance is misguided. It’s unreasonable to dismiss critiques when the foundation of such rules is based on insufficient evidence, especially on a wiki that is widely regarded as a leading source for VS battles.

When foundational arguments are flawed, it’s natural for people to raise concerns and propose changes. The argument that just because something has been repeatedly discussed or accepted over time means it is valid is fundamentally flawed. I identified faults in the old scaling, which has now been debunked. This led me to create a CRT to challenge a rule that had persisted for over four years, demonstrating that longevity does not equate to correctness.

Ad Populum Fallacy


If this CRT is accepted without my arguments being countered I will create another CRT. because you can accept or disagree means nothing if you are wrong, people will always see the wrong and try to change it.

 

[Samlex1234]

You can do that in a single post

No problem. I apologize and I admit my fault. Next time I will do better

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

I think if the rule is rephrased to using new arguments (and giving a list of common arguments) rather than new information, it'd be better

I agree with this, the initial proposal feels too vague and unnecessarily dismissive

Goku had a blog listed in his profile for counter arguments against Uni DB so creating one for Kaguya seems like a far better alternative

 

[ChoursDropoff]

I think if the rule is rephrased to using new arguments (and giving a list of common arguments) rather than new information, it'd be better

I agree with this as well

 

[Testarossa002]

I will address each argument individually. If any admin chooses to vote ‘yes’ without countering my points, I will escalate the matter to their superiors. This action is not based on bias but rather on their failure to respond to valid counterarguments.

This is my first argument to tackle the below

“The topic has been discussed many times over the years”

https://vsbattles.com/threads/revising-the-kaguya-etso-note-for-accuracy-and-updating.171615/


I created this thread several months ago because the existing discussion rule was fundamentally flawed. Here’s the rule in question:

“The attempts to scale Kaguya to her Expansive Truth-Seeking Ball (ETSB) have been rejected many times. The primary reason is that this attack requires a chakra amount far greater than her own, and scaling her ordinary stats to it is inconsistent with her performance against Naruto and Sasuke, who each possess only half of Hagoromo’s chakra.”


It has recently been recognized that this rule has been incorrect for over four years. Just because a majority supports a claim does not make it true. The notion that something is automatically valid due to popular acceptance is misguided. It’s unreasonable to dismiss critiques when the foundation of such rules is based on insufficient evidence, especially on a wiki that is widely regarded as a leading source for VS battles.

When foundational arguments are flawed, it’s natural for people to raise concerns and propose changes. The argument that just because something has been repeatedly discussed or accepted over time means it is valid is fundamentally flawed. I identified faults in the old scaling, which has now been debunked. This led me to create a CRT to challenge a rule that had persisted for over four years, demonstrating that longevity does not equate to correctness.

Ad Populum Fallacy


If this CRT is accepted without my arguments being countered I will create another CRT. because you can accept or disagree means nothing if you are wrong, people will always see the wrong and try to change it.

I hate to break it to you but this site operates on the principle of "Majority=Gets used on profiles". From CRTs to Versus threads.
That you think something is right or wrong means nothing if you can't get majority of the right people (in this case, staffs) to subscribe to your assertions.
Is it a perfect system? Maybe not
But that's ultimately how the wiki works

 

[MinatoSparkle]

(I'm neutral btw)

 

[Nierre]

neutral as well

 

[HelloThere1089]

This discussion rule will accomplish jack (Not Godernet's fault, because goons will keep gooning). This will only function as an added annoyance to anyone with better arguments. I don't see the point to adding a rule but put me in neutral as I am not really opposed to it either.