Kaguya ETSO downgrade

[Reio35]

I see kaguya is accepted as large star with ETSO. So I will just make a quick debunk for it.

1.First, Kaguya's ETSO was not going to destroy the sand dimension, which is the one with the star in it. It was only her core dimension which is stated by black zetus that it was going to be the start of a new dimension. Also backed up by kakashi that they won't be able to return to the core dimension. This dimension is only just a planet so she was going to destroy a planet.

This next point I will be going over the nature of these so-called dimensions.



"User -- Kaguya Ōtsutsuki

The divine power of the Founder whose eyes have opened to freely spin space without obstruction!

This is a technique Kaguya uses with the "Rinne Sharingan". She can move the world she is in along with everyone else to another space in an instant. Starting from the initial space, the five spaces that are directly connected that she can move to are lava, water, supergravity, sand, and acid.

It consumes a lot of chakra when activated, and so it is a Doujutsu that only Kaguya with her enormous power can utilize.

(Arrows) It forcibly drags others to another space. It is a fearsome technique as there is no way to resist it, and is impossible for one to return from the space beyond it"
translated here

So it says she can send people to a lava,ice,gravity,water,sand dimension. However for some of these dimensions like the ice and sand dimension they have a moon and a star which means the dimension is not completely ice or sand and more so just talking about the planet and not the actual dimension. Furthermore it's never even stated she created these dimensions. Also in the databook it stated she was going to destroy the world with ETSO which means planet. Kishi here is using the word world and dimension interchangeably. Which is shown numerous times in the manga as well.

So i propose kaguya gets downgraded to planet with ETSO do to being able to destroy her core dimension

 

[KingTempest]

Here's a better idea. Instead of starting a huge fuss over things that have been discussed to death

Remove "with ETSB" from her rating because of this CRT which showed that all of the AP feats done there were via hax.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Yeah I mean, Reio is wrong about everything he wrote but we can remove the rating due to it being EE now.

 

[Reio35]

Here's a better idea. Instead of starting a huge fuss over things that have been discussed to death

Remove "with ETSB" from her rating because of this CRT which showed that all of the AP feats done there were via hax.

Interesting i will include that as well even then im still wondering why ETSO is large star even tho it wasn't going to destroy the sand dimension with the star in it

 

[LordTracer]

I am completely in favor of getting rid of her rating with the ETSO.

 

[Omimi]

Here's a better idea. Instead of starting a huge fuss over things that have been discussed to death

Remove "with ETSB" from her rating because of this CRT which showed that all of the AP feats done there were via hax.

Even tho it's is hax but etsb still had to expand it size compare to that said dimension
to even affect it And it's also mad of energy
And now she only have high 4C cuz etsb creation feat
Anyway we are not even using etsb destruction calc which is 4B

 

[Purgy]

Even tho it's is hax but etsb still had to expand it size compare to that said dimension
to even affect it And it's also mad of energy

That's just range

EE isn't an AP feat.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Here's a better idea. Instead of starting a huge fuss over things that have been discussed to death

Remove "with ETSB" from her rating because of this CRT which showed that all of the AP feats done there were via hax.

This was my CRT, so obviously I agree with this suggestion.

 

[Slacjow]

I agree with everyone but I have to disagree with the removal of the rating.
The reason being is that TSB can deal blunt damage if one resists it's hax properties.

 

[Reio35]

I only agree if it's just planet range eraser. Cuz the dimension is planet size at most

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Cuz the dimension is planet size at most

Dimension is big enough to house a planet and a moon, possibly a star as well.

Planet size at most.

Okay, great.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

The Colourised Edition depicts the Core Dimension's planet as having a bright blue sky, which would only be possible if there was a star to radiate sunlight through its atmosphere.

 

[GTsek]

The Colourised Edition depicts the Core Dimension's planet as having a bright blue sky, which would only be possible if there was a star to radiate sunlight through its atmosphere.

This. The desert dimension clearly has a star there, and the dimension of snow too, after all it has a moon and moons don't emit light like stars.

I never understood how Kaguya created planets and stars with ETSO. It has always been clear to me that her created with another hax and not with ETSO.

 

[Reio35]

The Colourised Edition depicts the Core Dimension's planet as having a bright blue sky, which would only be possible if there was a star to radiate sunlight through its atmosphere.

That's not the only possibility that can be just an esthetic of the dimension. Theirs needs to be more evidence than just a blue sky

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

You wouldn't remove it regardless... it would simply be rated as environmental damage.

 

[The_Alxhemist]

Meh, it is EE so removing it is probably fine. But shouldn't it still be on her profile?

 

[KingTempest]

It'd be removed from the AP rating

You wouldn't remove it regardless... it would simply be rated as environmental damage.

It's EE, you don't quantify EE

 

[Purgy]

If the High 4-C rating actually does come from creation, then why would it be removed? I thought it came from destroying the dimensions.

 

[GTsek]

I think only the "with ETSO" justification will be removed, but High 4-C tier will continue...

 

[Reio35]

If the High 4-C rating actually does come from creation, then why would it be removed? I thought it came from destroying the dimensions.

She got high 4C for ETSO being capable of destroying all the dimensions. Which is never stated.

 

[Tyri456]

If now the ability is accepted as existence erasure then range would remain but should be removed by AP, which by definition is attack potency while existence erasure complete ignore durability so it doesn’t make sense to be classified by AP.

 

[Purgy]

She got high 4C for ETSO being capable of destroying all the dimensions. Which is never stated.

The justification on her profile says destruction and creation and I've been told before that the rating actually comes from creation, not destruction.

with Expansive Truth-Seeking Ball (Kaguya's dimensions contain Stars and Planets and her Expansive Truth-Seeking Ball is capable of destroying and re-creating them)

So the rating shouldn't be removed.

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

Creating a dimension with a sun is where her High 4-C comes from.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Then we change it to Enviromental Destruction?

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

Then we change it to Enviromental Destruction?

I don't really think we need to do anything. The feat is valid, though I guess we could remove the destruction part from her justification.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

This. The desert dimension clearly has a star there, and the dimension of snow too, after all it has a moon and moons don't emit light like stars.

I never understood how Kaguya created planets and stars with ETSO. It has always been clear to me that her created with another hax and not with ETSO.

On top of this, to me it seems really silly to assume that the other dimensions wouldn't be of similar or exact same sizes as her other dimensions that clearly have stellar-sizes provided for them. If 1 or 2 of them are that large, the other few should be assumed to be as large as well.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I'm a bit confused. Didn't creation feats get revised recently? Can we really give an AP rating for creation?

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

I'm a bit confused. Didn't creation feats get revised recently? Can we really give an AP rating for creation?

I think that's for scaling it to physicals of a character.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I think that's for scaling it to physicals of a character.

Ah, alright then. In that case, yeah the rating should remain, but we should probably tweak the justification a bit.

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

Ah, alright then. In that case, yeah the rating should remain, but we should probably tweak the justification a bit.

That seems fine. All we really need to do is remove the destruction part of the justification.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I'm a bit confused. Didn't creation feats get revised recently? Can we really give an AP rating for creation?

What thread did this happen in if you know?

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

What thread did this happen in if you know?

No clue, but everyone keeps talking about creation feats standards changing lol.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

No clue, but everyone keeps talking about creation feats standards changing lol.

The closest thing I saw to this though was this thread, but when reading through it, I saw nothing about any standards changing according to DontTalks comments.

 

[Reio35]

On top of this, to me it seems really silly to assume that the other dimensions wouldn't be of similar or exact same sizes as her other dimensions that clearly have stellar-sizes provided for them. If 1 or 2 of them are that large, the other few should be assumed to be as large as well.

"The fallacy of composition is an informal fallacy that arises when one infers that something is true of the whole from the fact that it is true of some part of the whole. A trivial example might be:"

This makes no sense just cause 1 possibly 2 my have a star the other 4 must have one to.

Creating a dimension with a sun is where her High 4-C comes from.

It's never confirmed she made these dimensions in the first place. People use to use the scan were its says"creating dimensions as she pleases"Which was already debunked as mis translation.

With that being said she shouldn't get a rating for creation or destruction of the realms. Only planet range eraser

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

"The fallacy of composition is an informal fallacy that arises when one infers that something is true of the whole from the fact that it is true of some part of the whole. A trivial example might be:"

This makes no sense just cause 1 possibly 2 my have a star the other 4 must have one to.

And how does it not? It makes even less sense to think that 1 or 2 of them are dramatically bigger than the others when there's nothing hinting that is the case. Especially when not all of her dimensions have been shown to come to that conclusion officially.

It's never confirmed she made these dimensions in the first place. People use to use the scan were its says"creating dimensions as she pleases"Which was already debunked as mis translation.

Thats not the only bit. There's also the fact that those dimensions are specifically called HER dimensions. Which one would first reasonably think would be that they're her actual created spaces.

That and the fact that Kaguya is able to have dominion over them (like merging with the nature within her dimensions) and her root dimension being connected to the rest. Nothing suggests that she didn't create them and given the context of the series, you'd be rising to even larger levels of speculation to think Kaguya just hijacked these worlds at some unknown point in the series.

 

[Reio35]

And how does it not? It makes even less sense to think that 1 or 2 of them are dramatically bigger than the others when there's nothing hinting that is the case. Especially when not all of her dimensions have been shown to come to that conclusion officially.

No it doesn't we gauged the size of each based on what's shown not what hasn't.That would be completely ignoring the tiering system. Well that official conclusion is faulty that's just a sorry excuse to upgraded kaguya. Clear confirmation bias. Other verses have to go through many hurdles just to get tiers yet she gets an upgrade based on an assumption.

Thats not the only bit. There's also the fact that those dimensions are specifically called HER dimensions. Which one would first reasonably think would be that they're her actual created spaces.

That's a ambiguity fallacy. So cause i own a planet does that mean i made it? No. Not once did she say she made it. She just claims she owns them

That and the fact that Kaguya is able to have dominion over them (like merging with the nature within her dimensions) and her root dimension being connected to the rest. Nothing suggests that she didn't create them and given the context of the series, you'd be rising to even larger levels of speculation to think Kaguya just hijacked these worlds at some unknown point in the series.

Just cuz she can maniplute small section of these worlds means absolutely nothing. I could understand if shes controlling the entire planet. The fact she was affected by her own gravity calls this into question and even then that doesn't mean she made the whole dimension even the stars that's extreme assumption and wildly inconsistent with her scaling anyway

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

No it doesn't we gauged the size of each based on what's shown not what hasn't.That would be completely ignoring the tiering system.

Except, thats exactly what im doing for one. We have at least 1 or 2 of these dimensions with a confirmed set size. Stellar via having a star and such within them.

And if 2 of them are confirmed to be that size, then the likelihood of the other dimensions, which are exactly the same as said 2, being that big is more likely than any other size. Especially since we do not see all of them.

Well that official conclusion is faulty that's just a sorry excuse to upgraded kaguya. Clear confirmation bias. Other verses have to go through many hurdles just to get tiers yet she gets an upgrade based on an assumption.

For one, this "upgrade" isn't even an upgrade since its not something she directly scales to either way you slice it.

And second, that is a false equivalency. I dunno about whatever other cases those verses have to face, but we have an actual basis for why those dimensions would be at the sizes they're set at here. Arguing otherwise rises to a higher level of speculation that has no basis. You don't have any basis to argue the other dimensions would be any smaller than the ones we are able to view and get sizes from.

That's a ambiguity fallacy. So cause i own a planet does that mean i made it? No. Not once did she say she made it. She just claims she owns them

"Owned" is not the specific word used. Don't put words in my mouth.

The statement is that they are HER dimensions. Which implies she created them.

Just cuz she can maniplute small section of these worlds means absolutely nothing.

It does. If she has dominion of them, that supports the implication that she created them. Since, you know, you can manipulate what you create.

And a "small section" is an understatement. The actual claim is that she merged with nature:

I could understand if shes controlling the entire planet. The fact she was affected by her own gravity calls this into question

Creating a dimension =/= you are unaffected by contents of said dimension.

and even then that doesn't mean she made the whole dimension even the stars that's extreme assumption and wildly inconsistent with her scaling anyway

It isn't when its done with something she doesn't directly scale to, her ETSB.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Agree with Kukui 100%.

 

[PrinceofPein]

No it doesn't we gauged the size of each based on what's shown not what hasn't.That would be completely ignoring the tiering system. Well that official conclusion is faulty that's just a sorry excuse to upgraded kaguya. Clear confirmation bias. Other verses have to go through many hurdles just to get tiers yet she gets an upgrade based on an assumption.

That's a ambiguity fallacy. So cause i own a planet does that mean i made it? No. Not once did she say she made it. She just claims she owns them

Just cuz she can maniplute small section of these worlds means absolutely nothing. I could understand if shes controlling the entire planet. The fact she was affected by her own gravity calls this into question and even then that doesn't mean she made the whole dimension even the stars that's extreme assumption and wildly inconsistent with her scaling anyway

Your entire argument is weird asf.
So she was stated to own the dimension, she can merge with the said dimensions, she can control the said dimensions, she can fuse her dimensions together and she has been stated and shown to have the ability to create and destroy the said dimensions but your own messed up argument is that she didnt create them for unknown reasons that u can't provide?

 

[WrongIdea21]

Except, thats exactly what im doing for one. We have at least 1 or 2 of these dimensions with a confirmed set size. Stellar via having a star and such within them.

And if 2 of them are confirmed to be that size, then the likelihood of the other dimensions, which are exactly the same as said 2, being that big is more likely than any other size. Especially since we do not see all of them.

For one, this "upgrade" isn't even an upgrade since its not something she directly scales to either way you slice it.

And second, that is a false equivalency. I dunno about whatever other cases those verses have to face, but we have an actual basis for why those dimensions would be at the sizes they're set at here. Arguing otherwise rises to a higher level of speculation that has no basis. You don't have any basis to argue the other dimensions would be any smaller than the ones we are able to view and get sizes from.

"Owned" is not the specific word used. Don't put words in my mouth.

The statement is that they are HER dimensions. Which implies she created them.

It does. If she has dominion of them, that supports the implication that she created them. Since, you know, you can manipulate what you create.

And a "small section" is an understatement. The actual claim is that she merged with nature:

Creating a dimension =/= you are unaffected by contents of said dimension.

It isn't when its done with something she doesn't directly scale to, her ETSB.

Agree with This