Joseph Joestar vs Kacchan

[Chariot190]

Also I swear to God, you better not actually stick to the "well he always had prior knowledge and that's how he did", because it's demonstrably not true, it happens sometimes, but that's not a constant, that's just Joseph not being ******* dumb.

Also hol up, like actually hold up.
Bakugo's range is only tens of meters? Isn't Joseph's range tens of meters with Hamon channeling too? It's situational but depending on the locale, they're actually about even.
Also as odd as it may be, Bakugo needing sweat to use his explosions is a detriment, liquids conduct Hamon extremely well.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

> And I doubt any of them are as good as Joseph when it comes to that. He's done it to those far smarter then Bakugo, and even to those who realized what he was doing, it's moreso Bakugo who needs feats of not falling for that against someone who's as good as Joseph at poking and exploiting.

No because thats NLF, also you're equating Intelligence linearly thats not how it works, you could be a genius in metaphysics but a novice in chess or martial arts, Joseph outsmarted someone who couldn't see past 19th-century magic tricks, the point here isnt that Joseph is dumb in fact id say he is SMARTER than Bakugo but using generalizations without specific references to argue a specific outcome is foundationally weak.

And given its literally in Bakugo's weakness section, it's fair game.

Im assuming your arguing through profiles only because this weakness is a reference to something that happened in the second arc of the series, something Bakugo no longer does.


> no it ******* doesn't? It only counts if he's gone for a week, obviously, he's not gonna be home for a week dude.
The very SBA rule you're quoting states that BFR needs to last a week to count.

"Death of the opponent, removing the opponent from the battlefield for at least one week (BFR), knocking the opponent out for at least one hour, or incapacitating the opponent by " putting him in a state in which he can not harm the other fighter(s) for over a day", are to be assumed as victory conditions.

Joseph can literally just pretend to be defeated and then come back later with a plan

this entirely relies on assuming bakugo is going to let Joseph go and then wait at the exact same spot for Joseph to return.

> That implies Bakugo even realizes he's laying traps, given Joseph's precedent of setting up traps in the fly right in front of his opponents

For Joseph to lay a trap he will need to know enough about bakugo which requires him to get closer, which puts in him the range of getting hurt by bakugo.

> opponents far more analytical and smarter than Bakugo, yeah no, Joseph can and will manage without Bakugo realizing it.

Citation needed

No, but it means he knows how to mitigate the advantages and will do exactly that.

which requires him to know enough about Bakugo, which requires him to engage in combat.

> And Joseph can tank attacks that much above him, so like, , they hurt and do damage but hamon healing/Regen and pain nullification help with that, it's allowed him to facetank before against attacks that do a number.

I never said he would be killed but that they would hurt him and continue exposure will eventually kill him, also the X3 AP is just Bakugo's normal explosions, he can increase them much higher, enough to hurt ALL Might, a character magnitudes above the likes of Kars.

Unless Joseph does it in such a way Bakugo fails to notice that Joseph even attacked in the first place, you're acting like Joseph is just gonna shoot or attack him straight to his face, that isn't what's gonna happen here, don't act like that's the case.Joseph's fighting style isn't as simple as you're implying.

I suppose it's easier to attack a man made of straw.

>The moment Joseph Kearns what Bakugo can do

which requires him to get close to Bakugo and we go back to the Initial point.

Bakugo is gonna need to watch his back, and sides, and below, and above, Joseph is gonna be laying traps, attacking in such a way and so on in ways that Bakugo isnt just gonna see it coming

Cool so like he normally has to?

>Missed the point completely, suspiciously so.

not that Joseph is gonna ******* bluff him into gaining extra time.

Also you " Joseph can literally just pretend to be defeated and then come back later with a plan "

My point was Joseph can very, very easily figure out how Bakugo thinks on the fly and exploit that with little issue

Yes and I asked for an example how this would work in Josephs favour and have yet to get anything.

> That's straight up bullshit, he doesn't need to know ahead of time, he can and has figured shit out on the fly

Never said he doesn't I said that the fight in specific is a result of having that information.

>That's a half truth, you're taking Joseph exploiting something to mean he's only done shit like that, that's blatantly false.

the example I used is an Objective truth you can go find it in the manga as opposed to extrapolating things from the manga and then using them as a basis to create extreme hypothetical and inflated scenarios that are backed up by thin references.

This is what we call the Batman fallacy.

 

[M1keyOnDiscord]

As someone who consumed both MHA and JoJo and enjoyed both reasonably, I can say that with very minimal doubt that Bakugo in the Joint-Training Era would lose to Post-Training Joseph. This Bakugo's on-the-fly strategy is no-where near equivalent to Joseph's, not to mention, like previously stated, Joseph is extremely witty on the fly and uses it to, all-be-it comedic gag against the 4th wall, but also reveals he can plan opponents moves after learning how they tick. and This bakugo is quite the hothead seeing how its prior to being really re-sharpened by combat experiences (And Jeanist) later on in MHA. The only way I can see Bakugo winning is if he got a really quick advantage on Joseph which I see being quite unlikely.
Edit: Realized I was thinking this was a different training arc. This last-part is incorrect.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Also I swear to God, you better not actually stick to the "well he always had prior knowledge and that's how he did", because it's demonstrably not true, it happens sometimes, but that's not a constant, that's just Joseph not being ******* dumb.

combination of luck, catching his enemy off guard or having knowledge before the time to formulate a plan that exploits a certain character's weakness.

Nice strawman electric boogaloo.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

seeing how its prior to being really re-sharpened by combat experiences (And Jeanist) later on in MHA.

This is the Bakugo that got re-sharpened by combat experiences and Jeanist lol.

 

[Stillwinston]

Day is 24 hrs, Joseph snipes Bakugo while he's having a nap gg (joking here btw)

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

In anycase I said my dues and now Im going to head out.

 

[Popted2]

good night Shadow

 

[Popted2]

by the way the vote count?
i think we have 7 for Joseph and 4 for Bakugo right?

 

[Bernkastelll]

Joseph doesnt need to take an entire day to think in a plan, he can just run away and think while running

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Joseph running >> GER

 

[Stillwinston]

Joseph running >> GER

Speedwagon is omnipresent gg

 

[Chariot190]

No because thats NLF, also you're equating Intelligence linearly thats not how it works, you could be a genius in metaphysics but a novice in chess or martial arts,

I said no such thing about linearity, I said that Joseph is exceptionally good at this in particular, and he is, above Bakugo and above those who attempted this very thing against him. It's not a NLF, it's literally true, and has nothing to do with your linear strawman, because I specified in the first place what Joseph excels at.

Joseph outsmarted someone who couldn't see past 19th-century magic tricks,

Except for the time his opponent saw past his magic trick, and Joseph still outsmarted them, happened a few times even

point here isnt that Joseph is dumb in fact id say he is SMARTER than Bakugo but using generalizations without specific references to argue a specific outcome is foundationally weak

Good thing I didn't then, I didn't generalize, in fact I made it clear what Joseph is far smarter than him at, there shouldn't be confusion in regards to this.

Im assuming your arguing through profiles only because this weakness is a reference to something that happened in the second arc of the series, something Bakugo no longer does.

Yeah, I am, because we use profiles in matches. Like what the **** do you expect. It's on the profile so it be like it do, so that seems a bit of a nonargument to begin with.

BFR

Ok so Joseph comes back within the day, why the **** would Joseph **** off for longer than that anyway? He says himself he never flees or runs away, merely falls back to come up with a plan, he says this against Empress in direct reference to his youth. Joseph isn't running away, he's only falling back to put himself in an advantageous situation.

Ie, your self BFR argument is a literal nonfactor. Because Joseph wouldn't do that to begin with.

For Joseph to lay a trap he will need to know enough about bakugo which requires him to get closer, which puts in him the range of getting hurt by bakugo.

Which he can figure out with ease and quickly at that, Bakugo ain't exactly subtle my dude. He wears his whole schtick and personality on his sleeve, and that's not even true, Joseph can still lay traps on the fly, they just won't be optimized, but they'd still be a thing.
And uh, why the **** would he need to get closer? Pretty sure the raging explosion man is pretty easy to analyze and deduce.

which requires him to know enough about Bakugo, which requires him to engage in combat.

Except he doesn't? He's analyzed foes before from afar, he doesn't need to engage in like CQC, especially not with Bakugo attacking at range like you argued above, Bakugo is gonna tip his hand long before Joseph needs to enter CQC.

which requires him to get close to Bakugo and we go back to the Initial point.

Except it doesn't, you even argued for range above

Cool so like he normally has to?

Sure, but he isn't Omniscient, he can very easily be distracted and be made to focus on one thing, given its on his profile as a weakness. It wouldn't be hard to distract him and cause him to trip up and get hit from a Blindspot.

Joseph can literally just pretend to be defeated and then come back later with a plan "

yes me, I was talking about his cowardice bluff and him pretending to be dead to sneak away against Wham, not his one month pride bluff. So moot point there.

I never said he would be killed but that they would hurt him and continue exposure will eventually kill him, also the X3 AP is just Bakugo's normal explosions, he hen increase them much higher, enough to hurt ALL Might, a character magnitudes above the likes of Kars.

Well they better kill or at least maim because Joseph can heal himself by simply breathing, and enough to where he can heal burns and the like, **** the dude can heal a nearly blown off arm within panels and even broken necks, plus pain is a non-issue. And no, he ain't, you're actually arguing that Bakugo is secretly ******* city level when he tries? That's CRT shit, don't bring that here, untill you make him tier 7 with his best explosions in this key, it's a nonfactor.

Yes and I asked for an example how this would work in Josephs favour and have yet to get anything.

Lure him into traps, draw his attention from traps or blindside's, hell it's not that complex.

Never said he doesn't I said that the fight in specific is a result of having that information

In specific? I'm talking in general, you know he's been in more then like one or two fights right?

the example I used is an Objective truth you can go find it in the manga as opposed to extrapolating things from the manga and then using them as a basis to create extreme hypothetical and inflated scenarios that are backed up by thin references.

Objective? It ain't, you're cherry picking, excessively so. That's what we call being disingenuous. Extrapolation? No, I'm merely referencing things he quite literally did at face value, everything I said was in direct reference to something Joseph has actually done or pulled off
Hypothetical scenarios? Yeah no shit, this is a hypothetical match, the **** did you expect?
Inflation? Odd, as everything I've mentioned was something he actually did in the source material

This is what we call the Batman fallacy.

That only works as an excuse if it's not literally true. While not always true, Batman outsmarting or exploiting a foe into submission is indeed a thing that can be pulled off against opponents, it may not always work, but it can, and this is one of those times where it's a possibility.

 

[Chariot190]

combination of luck, catching his enemy off guard or having knowledge before the time to formulate a plan that exploits a certain character's weakness.

Nice strawman electric boogaloo.

You forgot the parts where he just straight up outsmarted them

 

[M1keyOnDiscord]

No because thats NLF, also you're equating Intelligence linearly thats not how it works, you could be a genius in metaphysics but a novice in chess or martial arts, Joseph outsmarted someone who couldn't see past 19th-century magic tricks, the point here isnt that Joseph is dumb in fact id say he is SMARTER than Bakugo but using generalizations without specific references to argue a specific outcome is foundationally weak.

This just seems like straight-up fictitious towards Joseph.
Quote from the VS wiki itself;
"Joseph's greatest weapon is his cunning and resourceful mind, which he uses to deceive and mislead his opponents by any means necessary. He can quickly analyze them and take note of every small detail to accurately guess their recent activities, and even more impressively, predict their next words."
And what does it say about Bakugo?
"Dynamight has a short temper and is rather arrogant, causing him to forget the task at hand in favor of blowing up whatever agitated him."
Ignoring ANY examples of either in their respective plots, this Wiki itself points to Joseph having the upperhand when it comes to wits, not to mention the examples of pillarmen and whatnot for joseph.

Im assuming your arguing through profiles only because this weakness is a reference to something that happened in the second arc of the series, something Bakugo no longer does.

Im not going to lie, this bakugo at this point does control his temper more, however he can still get hot-headed, because well that's part of his gimmiks. And you have to compare it (in that case) to people Joseph has tricked. ffs he tricked Kars into attacking his airplane to crash it into a volcano man, you cant just flat-out ignore that.

"Death of the opponent, removing the opponent from the battlefield for at least one week (BFR), knocking the opponent out for at least one hour, or incapacitating the opponent by " putting him in a state in which he can not harm the other fighter(s) for over a day", are to be assumed as victory conditions.

Joseph can buy time for a few hours and still win. I dont see why you're implying he's gonna need 24+ hours to get in his head.

this entirely relies on assuming bakugo is going to let Joseph go and then wait at the exact same spot for Joseph to return.

This also assumes Joseph will need that time. We've seen him go toe-to-toe with people who were immune to hamone and find some bootleg setup to get it in them or finish them some other way, I wouldn't be amazed if he found a way to use hamone against the explosions, or Bakugo's gauntlets.

For Joseph to lay a trap he will need to know enough about bakugo which requires him to get closer, which puts in him the range of getting hurt by bakugo.

This is not necessarily true. He could set traps up from a distance, although against bakugo distance is kinda a joke, or setup traps extremely quick even if they distract bakugo just long enough to setup another, etc.

Citation needed

Kars. Has the brain of every animal. Pillar men. Each one lived for centuries. Do I need to really mention more?

which requires him to know enough about Bakugo, which requires him to engage in combat.

Someone hasn't seen joseph learn on the fly then.

I never said he would be killed but that they would hurt him and continue exposure will eventually kill him, also the X3 AP is just Bakugo's normal explosions, he can increase them much higher, enough to hurt ALL Might, a character magnitudes above the likes of Kars.

"Above the likes of kars", that depends on which kars we're talking about, 'cause some light novels would most-likely disagree with that, thats me being devil's advocate for a little though.

When saying something like this though, you also gotta remember he has to keep cool for his explosions, or he could start running low on supply. The whole point of his gauntlets are to store sweat incase he needs higher firepower (assuming he has them in this battle too, since he has them 24/7 basically except when not in-combat.)

I suppose it's easier to attack a man made of straw.

Unsure what this is referring to in any sense but alrighty.

which requires him to get close to Bakugo and we go back to the Initial point.

No it absolutely doesn't. Im not gonna pretend to be some edgy 13 year old RPer and say joseph Dodges everything, but the man doesn't gotta fight to learn, he can learn in the fight.

Cool so like he normally has to?

I actually can agree with this. Bakugo watches all sides of him, but that can also be abused by joseph, again, if joseph realizes that, and use it to get out of his line-of sight, Use hamone, bada bing bada boom.

Also you " Joseph can literally just pretend to be defeated and then come back later with a plan "

I agree with this too, the whole "haha let me pretend to be dead" thought is one I dont agree with, Joseph doesnt need to do that realistically. He could but Bakugo isnt just gonna let him be down on the ground if its too good to be true.

Yes and I asked for an example how this would work in Josephs favour and have yet to get anything.

An example I could give was this scene, using ripple to INTENTALLY get knocked into the well At precisely high-noon to finish killing santana -

Never said he doesn't I said that the fight in specific is a result of having that information.

Example above shows he calculated the arena around him for additional strategies, but arena above isn't specified so Im imagining some Smash Bros. Battlefield arena where it's just plain.

the example I used is an Objective truth you can go find it in the manga as opposed to extrapolating things from the manga and then using them as a basis to create extreme hypothetical and inflated scenarios that are backed up by thin references.

Eh this is towards the other dude so I got no opinion towards it.

 

[Bernkastelll]

Citation needed

Pillar men having 200 IQ and Joseph could outsmart them

 

[Chariot190]

I also want to point out, the Pillar Men HAVE seen through Joseph's sleight of hand, both Esidisi and Wham both did on different occasions (And Kars recognized Joseph's ability to do so), Joseph just out bullshitted them through the power of idk, but he did and that's what matters
He just kinda does, though, even if they didn't, Joseph's sleight of hand is ridiculous, reminder he attached a grenade, to a dozen other grenades, to a dude's back, while fighting him, in plain view, without being noticed, all in FRONT of this dude, this goes beyond sleight of hands, it's bullshit, but it's bullshit that's integral to his character and power and skill set.
I also want to point out even Santana, who's dumb as shit comparatively, can figure out shit on the fly including things he never seen before. This includes some various tricks and bullshit.

 

[M1keyOnDiscord]

I also want to point out, the Pillar Men HAVE seen through Joseph's sleight of hand, both Esidisi and Wham both did on different occasions.
I also want to point out even Santana, who's dumb as shit comparatively, can figure out shit on the fly including things he never seen before. This includes some various tricks and bullshit.

This is true. However the pillar men have lived for 1000s of years and created the stone masks to conquer the sun. Without trying to tie a direct IQ score on them, it should be pretty easy to compare the Pillar men vs Bakugo and see the pillar men are leagues higher in intellect, not to imply Bakugo isn't smart himself, but I wouldnt put him on the same level.

 

[GlaceonGamez471]

Yea, Joseph FRA

 

[M1keyOnDiscord]

He just kinda does, though, even if they didn't, Joseph's sleight of hand is ridiculous, reminder he attached a grenade, to a dozen other grenades, to a dude's back, while fighting him, in plain view, without being noticed, all in FRONT of this dude, this goes beyond sleight of hands, it's bullshit, but it's bullshit that's integral to his character and power and skill set.

Haha funny man strap gernades teehee

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I'm voting Joseph FRA.

 

[Cauann2K]

Joseph FRA

 

[M1keyOnDiscord]

Ive counted;
4 votes for Bakugo (ApiesDeathByLazors, Knifeman29, TauanVictor, Shadowbokunohero)
11 votes for Joseph (Popted2, Baken384, TauanVictor, M1keyOnDiscord, LIFE_OF_KING, M3X, GlaceonGamez471, XSOULOFCINDERX, Cauann2K, Stillwinston, Bernkastelll, CBslayer, Livinmeme)
0 for Incon/Tie

Sorry if I missed someone who voted because apparently earlier someone counted this many votes and Im unaware of how they got that number at that time lol, seeing how the 7 I got for joseph includes the last 2 voters.

Edit 1: Adjusted Shadow's vote and included Stillwinston.
Edit 2: Added Bernkastelll's vote.
Edit 3: CBslayeR, Livinmeme added, grace begins.

 

[Stillwinston]

I voted Joseph iirc

 

[Popted2]

Ive counted;
3* votes for Bakugo (ApiesDeathByLazors, Knifeman29, TauanVictor) *(Unsure if Shadowbokunohero voted for Bakugo, if so the vote is 4).
7 votes for Joseph (Popted2, Baken384, TauanVictor, M1keyOnDiscord, LIFE_OF_KING, M3X, GlaceonGamez471, XSOULOFCINDERX, Cauann2K)
0 for Incon/Tie

Sorry if I missed someone who voted because apparently earlier someone counted this many votes and Im unaware of how they got that number at that time lol, seeing how the 7 I got for joseph includes the last 2 voters.

and Shadow pretty specified that he voted Bakugo

 

[M1keyOnDiscord]

and Shadow pretty specified that he voted Bakugo

Passed over it, its kinda hard to see where they said it past all the constructive criticism towards this topic. I'll update the counter then.

 

[Bernkastelll]

i vote joseph

 

[M1keyOnDiscord]

Updated the vote, now 9-4 (Joseph - Bakugo) for those who cant bother scrolling up a few.

 

[CBslayeR]

Joseph FRA

 

[Livinmeme]

joseph FRA

 

[M3X_2.0]

GRACE

 

[LordGinSama]

Joseph FRA, this really shouldn't even be an argument. That's like me saying Bakugo can beat Batman with an AP advantage lol.

 

[M1keyOnDiscord]

Joseph FRA, this really shouldn't even be an argument. That's like me saying Bakugo can beat Batman with an AP advantage lol.

Extremely valid lol

 

[Shadyboi0]

Numbah 1 FRA

 

[Naito-desu]

Joseph Joestar fra

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

what's stopping bakugo from rushing joseph and repeatedly hitting him with his strongest attacks?

 

[M3X_2.0]

Nothing. But Joseph would defeat him easily.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Nothing. But Joseph would defeat him easily.

how exactly? how is joseph gonna do anything while he's getting constantly nuked by Bakugo who has a 4x AP advantage? Bakugo is relentless he won't leave openings for joseph.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Joseph doesn't need openings, he can create them himself, and did so against enemies much stronger and smarter than Bakugou. Rush towards Joseph, is that the best you can argue for Bakugo? Really? Do that and instantly get dozens of grenades trapped in your body ready to explode.

 

[Metalballrun]

Joseph doesn't need openings, he can create them himself, and did so against enemies much stronger and smarter than Bakugou. Rush towards Joseph, is that the best you can argue for Bakugo? Really? Do that and instantly get dozens of grenades trapped in your body ready to explode.

Question. Can you explain how exactly would Joseph do all these things?
I'm just curious, especially since speed is equalized. Unless the explanation is "he just does it because he's Joseph". Which I suppose has some validity in it in some form since he did it once.