- 657
- 24
What is the vote counter now
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Joker (Persona 5, Endgame) Vs. Galeem (SSBU)
- Thread starter ShockingPsychic
- Start date
- 262
- 19
I'm undecided, I think DatOneWeeb is voting Galeem, as is LordJJJ, and Solacis is voting Joker, as is Eganergo, Ican'tthinkof1goodname, and yourself.
- 2,786
- 358
I am voting Joker
- 262
- 19
Then that's 2-4-0 in Joker's favor. Now we just have to wait for more people to come in and vote.
- 262
- 19
Mudo costs less SP and isn't unique to an individual Persona. Die for Me is. It's not like it makes much difference anyways. Galeem has 0 ways of resisting Joker's death hax, meaning it will hit anyways.
- 3,338
- 1,368
So did you ignore why Null won't work? AP advantage negs this. Dude, seriously. I've said so many times, it's not even funny. Galeem can bypass attack reflection, and absorption. None of those will work against Galeem, the ap gap is far too high for Null to even work.Solacis said:
You realize that they were all able to prep, no? The characters didn't start fighting immediately. Hell, that just seems like PIS, considering his speed is listed as MFTL+, while the Smash cast isn't (only for reaction speed). Also, Snake's example is pretty bad. He always has a box with him, as shown in Brawl and his taunts.
In his own ending, the light ended up destroying everything after he killed Dharkon. In both endings, he went for the entire universe, which the game stated.
- 13,018
- 20,664
Alright so:
- Joker can use Third Eye and switch Personas to nullify an attack from Galeem (since the Smash cast could react to the danmaku after it was fired and Third Eye slows one's perception of time, this is 100% feasible). By the way, null does work even against opponents far stronger than you. You could toss in early-game Joker against Yaldy and if Yaldy uses an attack that Joker's current Persona nullifies, the attack will still be nullified. Absorption/Reflection is different from outright nullification.
- Galeem has no way to resist Mamudo, which could just one-shot him and his army of Master Hands, which he wouldn't have anyway because that's outside help
For these reasons and others stated above, my vote's going to Joker.
- Joker can use Third Eye and switch Personas to nullify an attack from Galeem (since the Smash cast could react to the danmaku after it was fired and Third Eye slows one's perception of time, this is 100% feasible). By the way, null does work even against opponents far stronger than you. You could toss in early-game Joker against Yaldy and if Yaldy uses an attack that Joker's current Persona nullifies, the attack will still be nullified. Absorption/Reflection is different from outright nullification.
- Galeem has no way to resist Mamudo, which could just one-shot him and his army of Master Hands, which he wouldn't have anyway because that's outside help
For these reasons and others stated above, my vote's going to Joker.
- 262
- 19
Re-voting Joker FRA
- 3,338
- 1,368
Is...is everyone ignoring what I'm posting? What the hell? Third Eye isn't gonna make him dodge the entire planet being covered in light. Null is useless due to the ap advantage. Literally no one is countering my null arguments. Comparing Galeem to Yaldabaoth's ap is laughable. Considering how only TWO characters reacted, I wouldn't exactly say the cast "reacted" all that well. Plus Galeem was multi-targeting, this time he only focuses on one other character. Joker isn't gonna Mamudo when Galeem literally hides inside a hole before even firing, nor can he multi-target thousands of characters at the same time. The Master Hands aren't outside help, as he's outright in control of them and potentially creates them due to Dharkon seemingly appearing with many Crazy Hands. Even if the Master Hands weren't here, he's still capable of nuking the universe without them.
- 262
- 19
Retracting vote FRA. Mildly disappointing, but oh well.
- 13,018
- 20,664
Except I literally just did.DatOneWeeb said:
- 3,338
- 1,368
Comparing Galeem to Yaldabaoth's ap is laughable.
- 13,018
- 20,664
How can you compare two Low 2-C's APs when they're both infinite numbers (since 3-A is where the finite numbers end)
And the thing is, you could toss in early game Joker (who is 7-C) and if you hit him with an attack that his Persona nullifies, it'll still be nullified
And the thing is, you could toss in early game Joker (who is 7-C) and if you hit him with an attack that his Persona nullifies, it'll still be nullified
- 3,338
- 1,368
Literally look at any Goku thread see that he holds the stronger ap. It's very much possible to hold an ap advantage in the tier 2.
Okay, that doest matter because it's still limited to Yaldy's ap. Otherwise it's a NLF to assume he can null things that one-shot him and anyone else.
Okay, that doest matter because it's still limited to Yaldy's ap. Otherwise it's a NLF to assume he can null things that one-shot him and anyone else.
- 13,018
- 20,664
It's not a NLF if it's legitimate evidence from Persona 5 instead of a hyperbolic statement. Also, comparing one finite value to an infinite value is a FAR greater gap than comparing two levels of infinity. With the right Persona, he can null anything of a certain element, and Galeem's attacks are light-based, which is synonymous with the Bless affinity, so having the Null Bless skill on a Persona will nullify Galeem's attack.
Jinsye
She/Her- 10,457
- 1,578
Joker isn't dodging Mr. No 3 on the top danmaku list and the AP difference is enough to one-shot.
Even if he somehow magically dodges the entire planet wide pseudo-omnidirectional light beams, Galeem will just do an omnidirectional light that'll just eat the universe.
So yeah, Galeem probably wins.
Even if he somehow magically dodges the entire planet wide pseudo-omnidirectional light beams, Galeem will just do an omnidirectional light that'll just eat the universe.
So yeah, Galeem probably wins.
- 262
- 19
So, your argument is that Galeem can do pseudo-omnidirectional light beams (whose speed doesn't matter, because speed is equalized) that Joker can't dodge because it's danmaku from one of the top 3 danmaku Personas, right? Well then, boy do I have the Persona for you.
Arsene with maxxed agility, Evade Bless (TRIPLES evasion against bless attacks, and since it works multiplicatively, this should work well with his 99 agility) Angelic Grace (Doubles evasion against all elements except almighty, otherwise, it's the same as evade bless), null bless, which we have no reason to assume doesn't work on Galeem, even with the difference in AP, because null phys with a level 5 Joker against Yaldy's Sword of Judgement works just as well as null phys with a level 99 Joker, Null Fire, and Null Phys. That should be enough to deal with everything Galeem can do offensively, yeah?
Also, why are we downplaying Yaldabaoth? He was able to oneshot multiple Low 2-C's without issue, with an attack that Joker was later able to nullify entirely. And Yaldy is WAY above endgame Joker, and the only real difference than endgame and Satanael Joker should be Satanael himself, right? Assuming story Satanael somehow has a more potent nullification than any other nullification in-game is just silly and a huge non-sequitur.
7. Non-Sequitur
This is when someone's conclusion is not implied at all by the premise.
Example: "Goku leaves afterimages, therefore Goku is faster than light".
The person in this example starts with a true premise (Goku leaves afterimages), but then jumps to a conclusion which is in no way implied by that premise (Goku is FTL).
In this case, the argument is "Satanael nulls Yaldabaoth's rays of control and Yaldabaoth is stronger than Satanael Joker, therefore Satanael's null is stronger than regular null." Two true premises are used (Satanael nulls Yaldy's RoC + Yaldy is stronger than Satanael Joker) and then a wholly unproven claim is given (Satanael has a more potent null than a regular nul) despite having 0 proof for this. If nullification gets nulled, we need proof of such. And I remember 0 cases in Persona, 5 or otherwise, where a character hits another character so hard that their nullification is broken. As a matter of fact, we have several pieces of evidence to the contrary (Yaldy hits low level Joker, Joker no-sells it with null phys).
If I used a logical fallacy of my own, please feel free to point it out and I'll do my best to correct it.
Arsene with maxxed agility, Evade Bless (TRIPLES evasion against bless attacks, and since it works multiplicatively, this should work well with his 99 agility) Angelic Grace (Doubles evasion against all elements except almighty, otherwise, it's the same as evade bless), null bless, which we have no reason to assume doesn't work on Galeem, even with the difference in AP, because null phys with a level 5 Joker against Yaldy's Sword of Judgement works just as well as null phys with a level 99 Joker, Null Fire, and Null Phys. That should be enough to deal with everything Galeem can do offensively, yeah?
Also, why are we downplaying Yaldabaoth? He was able to oneshot multiple Low 2-C's without issue, with an attack that Joker was later able to nullify entirely. And Yaldy is WAY above endgame Joker, and the only real difference than endgame and Satanael Joker should be Satanael himself, right? Assuming story Satanael somehow has a more potent nullification than any other nullification in-game is just silly and a huge non-sequitur.
7. Non-Sequitur
This is when someone's conclusion is not implied at all by the premise.
Example: "Goku leaves afterimages, therefore Goku is faster than light".
The person in this example starts with a true premise (Goku leaves afterimages), but then jumps to a conclusion which is in no way implied by that premise (Goku is FTL).
In this case, the argument is "Satanael nulls Yaldabaoth's rays of control and Yaldabaoth is stronger than Satanael Joker, therefore Satanael's null is stronger than regular null." Two true premises are used (Satanael nulls Yaldy's RoC + Yaldy is stronger than Satanael Joker) and then a wholly unproven claim is given (Satanael has a more potent null than a regular nul) despite having 0 proof for this. If nullification gets nulled, we need proof of such. And I remember 0 cases in Persona, 5 or otherwise, where a character hits another character so hard that their nullification is broken. As a matter of fact, we have several pieces of evidence to the contrary (Yaldy hits low level Joker, Joker no-sells it with null phys).
If I used a logical fallacy of my own, please feel free to point it out and I'll do my best to correct it.
- 1,580
- 486
Galeem FRA
- 13,018
- 20,664
Okay so what are the votes right now?
- 262
- 19
Joker FRA. Absorb and reflect probably won't work, but we have proof of characters dodging the light beams for at least a bit. So, Joker dodges one or 2 light beam, and then nulls the rest because him not being able to do that is a non-sequitur.
- 13,018
- 20,664
Just to re-iterate, my vote's also on Joker
- 13,018
- 20,664
Wait, wouldn't we be in grace period then?
- 7,845
- 4,156
Galeem FRA
- 5,826
- 1,232
Galeem FRA
- 13,018
- 20,664
Well dang... I don't know if this battle would even go through though since we're in a forum move, and once the move is over, every end-game P3, P4, and P5 character is getting a tier jump thanks to stuff from Persona 5 Royal
- 15,002
- 21,307
Galeem FRA
- 3,338
- 1,368
Good grief. How is Joker supposed to dodge THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE being covered in light? You realize that he has nowhere to dodge right? Joker can't dodge because he everything is already covered in light. Galeem's ap is far too high to null, stop using a NLF. Weak Personas capable of using Low 2-C null is irrelevant when strong Personas can do the same. Because in this case Galeem is thousands of times stronger than what the weak Personas have been shown to null. Saying he can now just tank them is clear wank. You keep comparing Yaldabaoth's ap to Galeem, which you cannot do.
Oh, Yaldabaoth can one-shot a few Low 2-C's? Cool, so can Galeem. Except Galeem can over power thousands of Low 2-C's. So stop comparing these two, I'm not about to repeat myself for the millionth time. This is why a no limits fallacy exist. Saying because no one in Persona 5 can break Joker's null is the equivalent of saying Saitama can beat everyone as he's never lost. You cannot say it can be broken just because no one can in his own game.
Oh, Yaldabaoth can one-shot a few Low 2-C's? Cool, so can Galeem. Except Galeem can over power thousands of Low 2-C's. So stop comparing these two, I'm not about to repeat myself for the millionth time. This is why a no limits fallacy exist. Saying because no one in Persona 5 can break Joker's null is the equivalent of saying Saitama can beat everyone as he's never lost. You cannot say it can be broken just because no one can in his own game.
- 9,887
- 3,541
Galeem FRA
- 13,018
- 20,664
Except it's based around elements so it works, rather than aspects that only exist within that verse such as cognition and all that. There's nothing that confirms that these nulls have a cap to the elements they can nullify, so it's not a No Limits Fallacy
Seriously, there's no reason to get so angry over this.
Seriously, there's no reason to get so angry over this.
- 3,338
- 1,368
It being around elements doesn't mean jack, that just means Joker is limited to what he resists depending on the Persona. Saying there's nothing to confirm that these nulls have a cap, therfore he can null anything, is a NLF.
"This is when someone states that because something has not demonstrated any limits (or only certain limits) then it has none (or only the ones demonstrated)."
Literally in the NLF page. Me typing in caps doesn't make me angry, it's to make my words stand out.
"This is when someone states that because something has not demonstrated any limits (or only certain limits) then it has none (or only the ones demonstrated)."
Literally in the NLF page. Me typing in caps doesn't make me angry, it's to make my words stand out.
- 13,018
- 20,664
Yeah, and Galeem's attacks are light-based, which is synonymous with Bless attacks, so Null Bless would work. Also, in the clip you send, Galeem didn't one-shot those Low 2-Cs, he did that attack after they had been weakened by the player.
There's zero indicator of the idea that someone with a high enough AP goes through the nulls, so we can't simply assume that to be the case. It's possible, but not factual.
There's zero indicator of the idea that someone with a high enough AP goes through the nulls, so we can't simply assume that to be the case. It's possible, but not factual.
