Joker (Persona 5, Endgame) Vs. Galeem (SSBU)

[ShockingPsychic]

Both are Low 2-C.

Endgame Joker without Satanael is being used.

They fight on the cliffside shown during the World of Light opening cutscene. Speed is equalized, and both are in character. Joker has any items or personas he may need.

Joker:

Galeem:

 

[Smashkabab]

What's to stop Joker from ending the fight within the first 5 seconds by using Mamudo on Galeem and his potential duplicates? I'm not seeing anything on Galeem's page that suggests he even might resist curse-based Death Hax.

 

[Solacis]

Last time, Joker borderline stomped with the Omnipotent Orb, though the AP difference in this case is pretty ridiculous. Galeem one-shots with anything, and death-hax isn't Joker's first move.

Worst-case scenario, Joker gets clipped by an attack and gets vaporized, but he's far more likely to just dodge everything with all of his reaction and speed amps, plus thought-based reflective barriers. He'll quickly realize that Galeem is way too durable for his normal attacks, before switching to Mudo and instantly winning.

Joker wins 7/10 times, I think. Voting Joker.

 

[Smashkabab]

Same here. Joker probably wins.

 

[RicardoSama]

Joker FRA

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Galeem literally just danmaku's Joker to death. The amount of beams Galeem will shoot is crazy, several Smash fighters who are already extremely agile can't escape. Makarakarn is useless here since Galeem negates Zelda's, Palutena's, and Mewtwo's attack reflect. Voting Galeem.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Hell, even characters with precognition such as Shulk wasn't able to escape Galeem's beams. Galeem's range here is literally universal+.

 

[Eganergo]

Is the beam light attack? Joker can repel/absorb/null. Joker option is not only reflect here. Voting Joker FRA.

 

[Solacis]

About agile characters in Smash being unable to dodge, what makes you think they weren't just outsped? After all, none of them except Kirby were capable of trying to dodge outside of pseudo-teleportation, and those that tried to outrun the beams just got vaporized. This match has speed equalized.

As for Danmaku, Joker is capable of dodging machine-gun fire from several different directions at once as shown in Scramble where flying Shadows with mounted guns are so common. Not to mention how Joker can dodge spells with huge AOEs, like all "Ma-" spells and Megidolaon. Add to that the fact he has his grappling hook, which only adds to his air mobility. And this is all without any form of speed/reaction amps at all.

Joker's Makarakarn may not work, but he still has Personas which nullify/absorb light-based attacks. As long as Joker dodges the first couple beams, he'll know to switch to said Personas.

 

[Ican'tthinkof1goodname]

Joker would just shoot Galeem in the head

 

[Smashkabab]

Just like Good Ol' **** ******, right?

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Maybe because the Smash cast literally has MFTL+ reactions? They all can react to the Warp Star, it's listed on their profiles. Highly so in this case, already agile characters or characters with precognition are already screwed.

Are you comparing machine guns to Galeems beams? First off, Galeem shoots at least 690 beams, all of them homing in on you by the way. The fact that they are home in on him makes his amps pretty useless, considering on the ammount he will dodge + that they all lock into him, AND he still needs attack Galeem which will be near impossible with all those beams covering him. As well as Galeem hiding inside a hole before she shoots. And even, then I doubt Joker can dodge this.

Absorb Personas won't work, as Ness and Lucas' PSI Magnet which absorbs projectiles to heal you, don't work against his attacks. You can argue null won't either due to the high ap gap.

 

[Ican'tthinkof1goodname]

Yes

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

ren's null was not an almighty attack? (resistance negation for those unfamiliar with persona and/or SMT)

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Joker can't nullify Almighty attacks, none of his reflectors, aborbs, or nulls can. Unless he has Satanael, but that's not the case here.

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

I'm not saying that he can nullify the almighty, I mean that his null power is not also an almighty power?

 

[Smashkabab]

Joker can't nullify Almighty attacks, none of his reflectors, aborbs, or nulls can. Unless he has Satanael, but that's not the case here.

So are we now classifying Galeem's LIGHT BEAMS as Almighty now? Despite the complete lack of evidence of such being the case? Nothing on Galeem's profile indicates resistance negation, and everything relating to Galeem directly attacking is Light Manipulation, Fire Manipulation, and Body Manipulation, which when used offensively, should be physical. All of the above, Joker should be able to null, since null works up to Low 2-C.

Also, what AP gap? They're both Universal+.

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

He got it wrong I said if the null train attacks are also almighty.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Joker can't nullify Almighty attacks, none of his reflectors, aborbs, or nulls can. Unless he has Satanael, but that's not the case here.

Why are we assuming that the beams of light are Almighty? There is no basis to this as they can equally be Bless.

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

For God's sake, see my comments, it's just a bad interpretation.

 

[Smashkabab]

Good as that is to hear, that doesn't answer my question regarding AP. There shouldn't be an AP gap, at least not a considerable one because they're both low 2-C.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

When did I say Galeem's beams are almighty? I'm saying Joker can't null almighty. I literally never said Galeem has almighty. Galeem scales above hundreds of Master Hands, all of them being Low 2-C, along with Tabuu also casually defeating Master Hand. Galeem's ap is far higher than Jokers. Galeem's ap is high to the point I doubt a null Persona would even work. Reflect gets negged due to Palu, Mewtwo, and Zelda. Absorb gets negged due to Ness and Lucas. Null gets negged by ap advantages. Characters can be Low 2-C but still have an ap gap, such as Dragon Ball. Overall, Joker definitely isn't dodging universal+ danmaku, he gets hit once and it's over.

 

[Lord_JJJ]

Galeem FRA

 

[Smashkabab]

When did I say Galeem's beams are almighty? I'm saying Joker can't null almighty. I literally never said Galeem has almighty. Galeem scales above hundreds of Master Hands, all of them being Low 2-C, along with Tabuu also casually defeating Master Hand. Galeem's ap is far higher than Jokers. Galeem's ap is high to the point I doubt a null Persona would even work. Reflect gets negged due to Palu, Mewtwo, and Zelda. Absorb gets negged due to Ness and Lucas. Null gets negged by ap advantages. Characters can be Low 2-C but still have an ap gap, such as Dragon Ball. Overall, Joker definitely isn't dodging universal+ danmaku, he gets hit once and it's over.

Uh... What? First of all, how is a Master Hand 2-C? Second, how does Galeem "scale above hundreds of Master Hands"? Doesn't he just absorb them to up his own power? Third, Third Eye slows Joker's perception of time, which should at least give him enough time to switch to a Persona with Null Bless, Null Fire, and Null Physical. At which point, this should be relatively easy pickings.

 

[Smashkabab]

Uh... What? First, how does Galeem "scale above hundreds of Master Hands"? Doesn't he just absorb them to up his own power? Second, Third Eye slows Joker's perception of time, which should at least give him enough time to switch to a Persona with Null Bless, Null Fire, and Null Physical. At which point, this should be relatively easy pickings.

 

[Smashkabab]

Uh... What? First, how does Galeem "scale above hundreds of Master Hands"? Doesn't he just absorb them to up his own power? Second, Third Eye slows Joker's perception of time, which should at least give him enough time to switch to a Persona with Null Bless, Null Fire, and Null Physical. At which point, this should be relatively easy pickings.

Accidentally quoted myself. Sorry, all.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

.
Uh... What? First of all, how is a Master Hand 2-C? Second, how does Galeem "scale above hundreds of Master Hands"? Doesn't he just absorb them to up his own power? Third, Third Eye slows Joker's perception of time, which should at least give him enough time to switch to a Persona with Null Bless, Null Fire, and Null Physical. At which point, this should be relatively easy pickings.

Why are you claiming things I've outright never said. I said Master Hand is Low 2-C. Considering they are all under his control and are only used as minions for him to use against Crazy Hand's while he fights Dharkon. Third Eye isn't going to be enough to dodge universal+ danmaku. Not only have I said that null is useless due to the large ap gap, but why are we assuming he'll use null bless over abosrb or reflect?

 

[Smashkabab]

Why are you claiming things I've outright never said. I said Master Hand is Low 2-C. Considering they are all under his control and are only used as minions for him to use against Crazy Hand's while he fights Dharkon. Third Eye isn't going to be enough to dodge universal+ danmaku. Not only have I said that null is useless due to the large ap gap, but why are we assuming he'll use null bless over abosrb or reflect?

First of all, what did I claim that you didn't say? I just checked my quotes, and I don't see anything out of the norm.

Second, why wouldn't Third Eye be enough to dodge a danmaku of light beams at least once?

Third, AP has no bearing on attack speed, which is what matters most for a danmaku. It doesn't matter if the attack can obliterate you if you can dodge it entirely. And Joker has High 2-C durability in this key, so it shouldn't kill afaik anyways.

Where are you getting this AP gap that is supposedly so terrible, Joker could never hope to overcome it? I checked both fighter's profiles, and I found absolutely nothing that suggests an AP gap. They're both High 2-C.

No reason in particular. Reflect, Null, and Absorb are all just as good as each-other, it's just that Null was the first thing to pop in my head, so I used that.

EDIT: I see now. You mean the light vs. almighty thing, right? That was just a misunderstanding, sorry about that.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

I said Master Hand is Low 2-C, NOT 2-C, these are two different tiers.

Okay, doesn't matter when he has to dodge hundreds more still coming after him.

Considering how evey character he hit has MFTL+ reactions, along with speed amps and precognition (which allows the user to see the attack before it happens) and none of them escaped, besides Kirby albeit barley, saying Joker will dodge it is just stretching it. High 2-C isn't a thing, Joker is Low 2-C however his scalling chain is nowhere near as large as Galeems. Galeem scales above 6900+ Low 2-C characters. He one-shots. Joker gets hit once, he's dead.

Do I have to say this again? Reflect doesn't work. Galeem's beam literally negates Zelda's neutral special, Mewtwo's side special, and Palutena's down special. All of which are used to relfect projectiles. Yet Galeem regated it. Ness and Lucas couldn't survive with PSI Magnet, which outright absorbs projectiles like Joker. Null is useless due to the high ap advantage.

 

[TheQuirkyBoy]

Yet Galeem regated it. Ness and Lucas couldn't survive with PSI Magnet

NOT IF I HAVE ANYTHING TO SAY ABOUT IT

 

[Smashkabab]

1. That was a typo

2. After one dodge, he should know to switch to a Persona that at least nullifies Light, considering they are beams of light, and Joker should be able to use Info Analysis at the start of the fight to figure out that Galeem has a very high Light affinity, thus likely attacking with Light. And yeah, High 2-C doesn't exist. I misread that. Sorry.

3. Joker has MFTL+ speed overall, which doesn't matter because speed is equalized, with even higher reactions using Third Eye. Joker should also be able to use Heat Riser to up all of his stats, including speed. Maybe Joker can't dodge continuously, but he doesn't really have to. Again, one dodge, then he swaps to a Persona with the passive abilities he needs to tank the rest with his face. After which, he uses his attacks, discovers that they aren't doing nearly enough, and so, Joker exploits Galeem's weakness to Death Manip. Or rather, Joker exploits Galeem's lack of any kind of Death Manip resist.

4. Yaldabaoth is Low 2-C like Galeem. Yaldabaoth can bring the Phantom Thieves to their knees with one attack like Galeem does with the Smash Cast, with the Phantom Thieves all being Low 2-C's with the same kind of durability as Joker has. And you can use Null Phys to nullify Sword of Judgement, from Yaldabaoth, who could effortlessly bring ALL the Phantom Thieves to their knees, not just Joker. no matter what kind of buffs. Therefore, Null Bless, Null Fire, and Null Phys are all perfectly valid in this fight.

5. If Galeem really one-shots that hard, he's in severe need of a tier upgrade. Thus, this match shouldn't even be happening. As it stands, though, I think Joker has a stable enough wincon for this to continue.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Oh dear.

1. How many times do I need to repeat myself? Null Personas do not work. Not only does Joker not know what attacks these are, but Joker's null overall just doesn't work at all.

2. You missed the point. Considering how many different characters were completely unable to dodge Galeem's beams, Joker's won't either. Third Eye and Speed Amps don't do squat. Universal+ range is something Joker isn't dodging. And I've already said above that nulls do not work here. You objectively need to prove Joker can dodge something like this, along with him knowing these are light (info manipulation doesn't display what he has), and instantly using null over anything else. These are huge assumptions.

3. I've literally just proved as to how Galeem's ap is far higher. They are Low 2-C, yes, but Galeem has a greater scalling chain. Putting his ap far higher. Stop trying to compare them. Also, Joker can't Sword of Judgement wasn't what was used to finish off the PT. It was his Ray of Control attack, which is almighty. So no, these are invalid.

4. No, scalling above thousands of Low 2-C characters doesn't make you a higher tier. Not how it works here.

Overall, Joker isn't dodging thousands of homing attack beams, which all nullify his defensive options, and ecompass the entire universe.

 

[Smashkabab]

1. Info Analysis should reveal pretty handily that Galeem is using Light-based attacks (Try using analyze if you end up playing P5R, it shows a shadow's attacks), which is synonymous with Bless. And how do Null Personas not work? I literally just said that a single attack from from Yaldy was enough to bring down the Phantom Thieves effortlessly regardless of buffs, resistances, etc., and Joker can completely nullify another one of his attacks. Sure, Sword of Judgement may not be what brings the P-Thieves down, but it should still be on the same tier as Rays of Control since they came from the same entity with the same intentions. Joker can resist Rays of Control vía Resist Almighty, which should push Yaldy's feats just a little bit higher. Plus, BOtW Link's shield can block a beam. If he can, Joker DEFINITELY can.

2. You do realize that when speed is equalized, that includes the danmaku, right? Therefore, all those reaction/speed amps DO make a difference. And since speed is equalized, the danmaku makes about as much difference as if Joker were a trans-sonic character dodging a danmaku of trans-sonic bullets with universal range and light to medium homing. If Joker has speed and reaction amps, it will allow Joker to dodge, at least for a little bit.

4. Alright, that's a little weird, but it's a side point anyway, so it doesn't matter.

Overall, Joker CAN dodge thousands of homing beams, at least for a little bit (the homing isn't even strong enough for a beam to turn back on someone who previously blocked it, so the same should be true for dodging), he has defensive options, and null should work by scaling Galeem to Yaldabaoth, who should be FAR above Joker without Satanael, and null worked on him without issue, so what's your problem with null?

EDIT: Just found out that BotW Link's Shield is Large Planet level, lmao. Null should work ENTIRELY without issue.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Okay, you're not listening to me at all. This is getting annoying and repetitive.

1. Joker literally needs prior knowledge in order to even do this, you literally get zero information when fighting an enemy you've never seen. Again, Yaldabaoth's ap is NOT even close to being AS STRONG as Galeem. This means that we cannot say null works due to how much stronger Galeem is. Joker can't resist Almighty attacks, literally nothing in the game allows you to do this besides Yaldabaoth. Link's shield doesn't mean anything, what kind of example is this? Zelda's shield can't do anything about it, Joker can't block it.

2. And once again, you refuse to listen. Speed equal or not, this doesn't mean Joker can dodge it. Joker hasn't shown to dodge anything to what Galeem did, you need to prove this. Joker has never dodged thousands of beams that home in at him. And once again it encompasses the universe. How is Joker going to dodge something when the entire universe is affected? He has nowhere to dodge to begin with.

Overall, Joker CAN'T dodge them. He's never been shown to dodge anything remotely comparable. How the hell are you going to compare blocking to dodging? Those are two different things, Link failed to escape anyways. Why are you scalling Galeem to Yaldabaoth. They've never fought each other. These are two completely different characters. You can't scale them. Galeem is far higher. Also, the Link in Smash Bros isn't the same as from BOTW. In case you didn't know, Smash Bros is non-canon. This is why we don't scale Galeem to anyone else, otherwise he'd be 2-A for killing Shulk.

 

[Smashkabab]

Tell me, how is Galeem so high into Low 2-C? What's your scaling chain? I know it can't include Shulk because he's probably 2-B and would destroy a Low 2-C Galeem in a fair fight, along with the fact that as you so helpfully pointed out, Smash doesn't give a damn about outside canons. So, who is a part of your scaling chain? Who did you use to get Galeem so high into Low 2-C?

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Hm, let's see. Master Hand scales above their own versions of Pokémon, which are Low 2-C. Maater Hand's second form makes his equal, Crazy Hand, flee. Tabuu one-shotted Master Hand. Galeem one-shotted all of these, along with the fact that thousands of Master Hands (Marth stated they each need to take on 10 Master Hands, impying this much due to the amount of fighters prior to DLC) literally could not at all do anything to Galeem, as he's shown to be able to defeat hoards of Crazy Hands. It's the fact that Galeem scales to thousands of Master Hands. Dharkon scales above thousands of Crazy Hands, which are equal to Master Hand. Both of these characters were capable of equally fighting and harming each other.

And again, keep in mind Galeem can literally just destroy the planet Joker is standing o.

 

[Smashkabab]

Hm, let's see. Master Hand scales above their own versions of Pokémon, which are Low 2-C. Maater Hand's second form makes his equal, Crazy Hand, flee. Tabuu one-shotted Master Hand. Galeem one-shotted all of these, along with the fact that thousands of Master Hands (Marth stated they each need to take on 10 Master Hands, impying this much due to the amount of fighters prior to DLC) literally could not at all do anything to Galeem, as he's shown to be able to defeat hoards of Crazy Hands. It's the fact that Galeem scales to thousands of Master Hands. Dharkon scales above thousands of Crazy Hands, which are equal to Master Hand. Both of these characters were capable of equally fighting and harming each other.

And again, keep in mind Galeem can literally just destroy the planet Joker is standing o.

In which case, Galeem could win instantly just by doing that right off the bat. Not that he WOULD do that immediately, but he definitely could. In any case, it sounds like a case of "destroy the enemy before they destroy you" seen so often in games. Now, this is interesting. Could Joker simply kill off the Master Hands before Galeem can use them to make that super-ultra homing denmaku attack that's becoming the bane of my existence? Because Mamudo should make fairly short work of them, considering they share in Galeem's rather severe lack of protection from Death Manipulation. Or would that just prompt the denmaku to come out earlier than it would otherwise?

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Galeem's first instinct is to straight up danmaku. Not only will I doubt Joker being able to kill thousands at the same time, but as shown in the link, Galeem doesn't need the Master Hands in order to do so. I simply don't Joker can dodge the entire universe being ecompassed by Galeem's light before Joker kills him.

 

[Solacis]

Yeah, Galeem nuking the planet with that much Danmaku doesn't seem like something Joker can feasibly dodge.

Granted, Joker still has a chance to switch to a Null Bless Persona and no-sell it before continuing his usual strategy. He'll be able to tell how much stronger Galeem is than he is with Third Eye, and that's extremely in-character for him to do before anything else. And being faced with such a huge power difference would compel him to immediately switch to a Null/Absorb/Repel passive as soon as he sees the beams coming.

It should be noted that the Smash cast could still react to Galeem's beams after they were fired. Hell, Snake had enough time to hide under a box and Falcon had enough time to get his ship ready and try to jump in. If they could do that, Joker should easily be capable of switching Personas fast enough to no-sell the beams.

The question is whether or not Joker will use Mamudo before Galeem decides to screw everything and annihilates the entire planet. It should be noted though, that Galeem never destroyed any planets in the story, instead only ravaging the surface a bit as collateral damage. So with Joker negating or absorbing the light beams, he'll have enough time to fire back with Mudo spells.

I maintain my vote for Joker.

 

[Smashkabab]

Fair enough. I was hoping to help give Joker the win, but it sounds like Galeem is just WAY, WAY too high into Low 2-C for Joker to realistically handle, at least without the information we might get from P5S *cough* Give us westerners an English release, Atlus *cough*