JoJo revisions from the past

[Eficiente]

Remember this thread? I didn't. It was fairly accepted but let's go over it from 0:

• Giorno
  • To his body control: Has some control over the things he gives life over, having telekinetically brought back his severed hand infused with his powers from the ground back to his body
  • GER's Return to Zero should be Time Manip too. Yes, it is mainly Causality Manip, but it also reverses time by any definition of the word. In this topic, Mista shot within erased time -- specifically having aimed before the Time Erase -- then he was reversed and had to aim again
• Yoshikage Kira
  • Limited Acausality (Type 1) due to keeping his memories only in the activation of BtD, meaning when he killed Hayato and what he was aiming to do in the end of DiU. Otherwise he lacks this.
  • (X) His High-Low regen as a ghost should be removed.
• Enrico Pucci
  • More Extrasensory Perception via Joestar-Senses
  • Animal Manipulation for White Snake via this
• Jolyne Cujoh should have Immortality (None normally, up to type 2 with her powers) via this
• Johnny and Gyro should not have their "Resistance to Probability Manipulation" as Valentine's wall doesn't warp probability on others, it just takes bad luck away via spatial manip, which is what their rotation breaks. You break the walls, you don't have to deal with the Probability Manip
• Diavolo
  • Enhanced Senses: Detected Risotto and Pol spying on him meters away, from behind, and while being Doppio. Could tell that Bruno was a corpse (not very impressive, but still remarked as illogic by Doppio due to Bruno being able to move and "see")
  • More Extrasensory Perception: Could sense her daughter still being alive, and knew that he and her had a similar scent of their souls.
  • Limited Soul Manipulation: Gave Doppio the scent of his soul.
  • Limited Resistance to Soul Manipulation: When CR soul-switched everyone, Diavolo as a soul took advantage of that and decided to move into another body, process he likely shouldn't be able to do on his own. By contrast, everyone else's souls were trapped in the bodies CR put them in. Diavolo cannot fly with his soul out of his body at will, he simply took advantage of CR having manipulated the souls in his body
  • Limited Possession: Can take over the soul of the body he inhabits, violently taking over Doppio after brief seconds when deciding to do so and directly possessing Trish by manually controlling her Stand. Giorno speculates that the Boss having a double personality could justify his ability to possess a target. He ony seems to have this ability within his own body and would need to manually control the Stand (if they have one) of another if he's in another body.
  • Body Control & limited Memory Manip: When taking over Doppio and leaving as him, his body changes musculature, and Doppio forgets what happened without wondering about the time that happened while Diavolo was in control. When using Trish's body, the same happened to her memories, disbelieving the idea of being possessed.
  • BS Intelligence feats to add: Could discover that Bruno only sees the souls of others with little info about it. Could discover how CR's weakness works by pretty much making up rules about it.

Most of this lacks scans and a proposed wording to be added on profiles, and I would really appreciate help there due to lack of time.

Aside from it the only thing left would be how Heaven DIO and EoH Jotaro's "possibly 3-A to Low 2-C" stats are wrong, but that's for another time.

 

[Chariot190]

"possibly 3-A to Low 2-C"

I really wouldn't be so sure about that, if anything looking at the raws it should be High 3-A but I'm to busy dealing with MGS to do that shit atm. But don't you think it's a bit presumptuous of you to make such a bold claim like that?

Removing Kira's regen as a revenant is also wrong, we see him reattach an arm and even a leg, he also implies he can take the arms of others to replace his own, removing it would be blatantly wrong.

And I wouldn't touch Part 7 at all for the time being.

Besides that, yeah idk most of this looks ok.

 

[TheGunsFinalWrath]

this is so sus
"time manip ger" thats still causality manip bruhh. What he did was bringing mista way back, way before king crimson even deleted space-time, before he even aimed at Diavolo. But that process isnt reverting time, not how it works, at all. What ger did was just resetting time erase and Mista way further back (their actions). that aint time manip dude
Time manipulation for ger is like Perception manipulation for king Crimson lmao.
"limited acasuality type 1 for Kira".... what. sorry what? this sounds so weird?? Its just him remembering the previous reset on the initial btd usage. so like??

idk about the most.

 

[Eficiente]

I really wouldn't be so sure about that, if anything looking at the raws it should be High 3-A but I'm to busy dealing with MGS to do that shit atm. But don't you think it's a bit presumptuous of you to make such a bold claim like that?

No, I find pretty simple why it's wrong. Also out of the 3 staff who agreed with that 2 agreed with me that it was wrong and 1, Cal, never replied to me on the topic and isn't a staff anymore.

Removing Kira's regen as a revenant is also wrong, we see him reattach an arm and even a leg, he also implies he can take the arms of others to replace his own, removing it would be blatantly wrong.

Ok then, we need to add that evidence to his profile.

And I wouldn't touch Part 7 at all for the time being.

Why would that be?

this is so sus
"time manip ger" thats still causality manip bruhh. What he did was bringing mista way back, way before king crimson even deleted space-time, before he even aimed at Diavolo. But that process isnt reverting time, not how it works, at all. What ger did was just resetting time erase and Mista way further back (their actions). that aint time manip dude
Time manipulation for ger is like Perception manipulation for king Crimson lmao.

Consider a less casual approach, please. There is no logical reason as to why it would only be Causality Manip since the way he is manipulating Causality includes time, Causality/cause & consequence aren't this things that exist in a vacuum outside the rest of the concepts that make up reality, could have GER manipulated Causality w/o manipulating time? Yes, most characters with Causality Manip do so, but the way GER uses Causality Manip includes reversing time, since it reverses Causality, which time takes part of.

"limited acasuality type 1 for Kira".... what. sorry what? this sounds so weird?? Its just him remembering the previous reset on the initial btd usage. so like??

That it is uncommon doesn't mean it's wrong. To remember that fits within type 1 Acasuality, but he only has it with a very specific use of his power, thus he has a limited version of that power. It would be no different if, say, the first use of BtD allowed him to use any other superpower on the target that he throws KQ into, you wouldn't call weird if we gave Kira "limited [Name of the power he uses in that context]" based on that.

 

[TheGunsFinalWrath]

No, I find pretty simple why it's wrong. Also out of the 3 staff who agreed with that 2 agreed with me that it was wrong and 1, Cal, never replied to me on the topic and isn't a staff anymore.

Ok then, we need to add that evidence to his profile.

Why would that be?

Consider a less casual approach, please. There is no logical reason as to why it would only be Causality Manip since the way he is manipulating Causality includes time, Causality/cause & consequence aren't this things that exist in a vacuum outside the rest of the concepts that make up reality, could have GER manipulated Causality w/o manipulating time? Yes, most characters with Causality Manip do so, but the way GER uses Causality Manip includes reversing time, since it reverses Causality, which time takes part of.

That it is uncommon doesn't mean it's wrong. To remember that fits within type 1 Acasuality, but he only has it with a very specific use of his power, thus he has a limited version of that power. It would be no different if, say, the first use of BtD allowed him to use any other superpower on the target that he throws KQ into, you wouldn't call weird if we gave Kira "limited [Name of the power he uses in that context]" based on that.

That isnt reversing time when all space time is deleted. Not to mention, what rtz does is revert actions. And last time I checked, will to act is also something that he explicitly negs.
Example: Diavolo looks into the future, talks about ger's powerupp, then goes on a monologue and how giorno wont be able to regret his own death, then uses time erase. Guess what? His intent to time erase came up when he finished looking into the future. After all, he does look into epitaph, then follows up with time erase. Literally what he does in the story as well character-wise. So he did, then his will to act (to perform time erase is there). Which is why everything gets further resetted back (Actions, that is). Its because of diavolo's intent (the will to act) the moment he started monologuing. Its also as to why we see the start of his monologue too when everything gets rtz'ed back. With how guidebooks and stats speak of actions rather than what you claim, I dont see how its time erase as you claim it to be. (Besides the fact that its the automatic part of rtz. Which makes it just reset all shit back)
"reverse time" I dont think you can reverse time if time and space is literally deleted. And rtz does seem to work outside time and space itself, given how it can still work and do its shit in a erased time-space universe. And theres also the fact that Erased time also erases Cause too, whilst keeping the effect. (Causality manip for time erase.)


No, i just dont think limited acasuality type 1 even fits, at all.

 

[Eficiente]

That isnt reversing time when all space time is deleted. Not to mention, what rtz does is revert actions. And last time I checked, will to act is also something that he explicitly negs.
Example: Diavolo looks into the future, talks about ger's powerupp, then goes on a monologue and how giorno wont be able to regret his own death, then uses time erase. Guess what? His intent to time erase came up when he finished looking into the future. After all, he does look into epitaph, then follows up with time erase. Literally what he does in the story as well character-wise. So he did, then his will to act (to perform time erase is there). Which is why everything gets further resetted back (Actions, that is). Its because of diavolo's intent (the will to act) the moment he started monologuing. Its also as to why we see the start of his monologue too when everything gets rtz'ed back. With how guidebooks and stats speak of actions rather than what you claim, I dont see how its time erase as you claim it to be. (Besides the fact that its the automatic part of rtz. Which makes it just reset all shit back)
"reverse time" I dont think you can reverse time if time and space is literally deleted. And rtz does seem to work outside time and space itself, given how it can still work and do its shit in a erased time-space universe. And theres also the fact that Erased time also erases Cause too, whilst keeping the effect. (Causality manip for time erase.)

It keeps on reversing stuff going passed the Time Erase, there is no point to point out how time was deleted twice. GER doesn't just revert "actions" but Causality/cause & consequence, time being in it. Your argument that GER also negs will doesn't work as it can do that while also doing what I say, there is no logical conection between "GER negs will" and "thus, it cannot reverse time" because it changes nothing that it can do both.

Technically Diavolo didn't have his own personal time erased, as he says as much in his last Time Erasure. There is no "rtz does seem to work outside time and space", that's nonsense, time and space make up the universe, GER is in the universe and that's where we see its powers work. If by that you meant some esoteric mechanic of how GER works then it should be clear how that's made up. Erased time doesn't erase cause, it manipulates it, people and things still do actions in it, actions and consequences to those actions. If by that you also meant some esoteric mechanic of how King Crimson works then it should be clear how that's made up, and it would still don't matter as GER still does what I say after the erased time. Time Erase also doesn't erase space, it just manipulates it.

 

[Shey]

Remember this thread? I didn't. It was fairly accepted but let's go over it from 0:

• Giorno
  • To his body control: Has some control over the things he gives life over, having telekinetically brought back his severed hand infused with his powers from the ground back to his body

Should be some kind of telekinesis of some things he imbues with life energy, the anime shows him doing this for a rock

• • GER's Return to Zero should be Time Manip too. Yes, it is mainly Causality Manip, but it also reverses time by any definition of the word. In this topic, Mista shot within erased time -- specifically having aimed before the Time Erase -- then he was reversed and had to aim again

I think this already falls under Causality manipulation if not then I agree

• Yoshikage Kira
  • Limited Acausality (Type 1) due to keeping his memories only in the activation of BtD, meaning when he killed Hayato and what he was aiming to do in the end of DiU. Otherwise he lacks this.
  • His High-Low regen as a ghost should be removed.
• Enrico Pucci
  • More Extrasensory Perception via Joestar-Senses

Agree

• • Animal Manipulation for White Snake via this

I feel Bio Manip would be more fitting

• Jolyne Cujoh should have Immortality (None normally, up to type 2 with her powers) via this
• Johnny and Gyro should not have their "Resistance to Probability Manipulation" as Valentine's wall doesn't warp probability on others, it just takes bad luck away via spatial manip, which is what their rotation breaks. You break the walls, you don't have to deal with the Probability Manip
• Diavolo
  • Enhanced Senses: Detected Risotto and Pol spying on him meters away, from behind, and while being Doppio. Could tell that Bruno was a corpse (not very impressive, but still remarked as illogic by Doppio due to Bruno being able to move and "see")
  • More Extrasensory Perception: Could sense her daughter still being alive, and knew that he and her had a similar scent of their souls.
  • Limited Soul Manipulation: Gave Doppio the scent of his soul.
  • Limited Resistance to Soul Manipulation: When CR soul-switched everyone, Diavolo as a soul took advantage of that and decided to move into another body, process he likely shouldn't be able to do on his own. By contrast, everyone else's souls were trapped in the bodies CR put them in. Diavolo cannot fly with his soul out of his body at will, he simply took advantage of CR having manipulated the souls in his body
  • Limited Possession: Can take over the soul of the body he inhabits, violently taking over Doppio after brief seconds when deciding to do so and directly possessing Trish by manually controlling her Stand. Giorno speculates that the Boss having a double personality could justify his ability to possess a target. He ony seems to have this ability within his own body and would need to manually control the Stand (if they have one) of another if he's in another body.
  • Body Control & limited Memory Manip: When taking over Doppio and leaving as him, his body changes musculature, and Doppio forgets what happened without wondering about the time that happened while Diavolo was in control. When using Trish's body, the same happened to her memories, disbelieving the idea of being possessed.
  • BS Intelligence feats to add: Could discover that Bruno only sees the souls of others with little info about it. Could discover how CR's weakness works by pretty much making up rules about it.

Agree

 

[Baken384]

We should give Bruno underground mobility , guy literally copied Secco's technique of moving around underground

 

[TheGunsFinalWrath]

It keeps on reversing stuff going passed the Time Erase, there is no point to point out how time was deleted twice. GER doesn't just revert "actions" but Causality/cause & consequence, time being in it. Your argument that GER also negs will doesn't work as it can do that while also doing what I say, there is no logical conection between "GER negs will" and "thus, it cannot reverse time" because it changes nothing that it can do both.

Technically Diavolo didn't have his own personal time erased, as he says as much in his last Time Erasure. There is no "rtz does seem to work outside time and space", that's nonsense, time and space make up the universe, GER is in the universe and that's where we see its powers work. If by that you meant some esoteric mechanic of how GER works then it should be clear how that's made up. Erased time doesn't erase cause, it manipulates it, people and things still do actions in it, actions and consequences to those actions. If by that you also meant some esoteric mechanic of how King Crimson works then it should be clear how that's made up, and it would still don't matter as GER still does what I say after the erased time. Time Erase also doesn't erase space, it just manipulates it.

doesnt erase space. doesnt erase cause

please just re-read the manga again. We literally have the "erased cause" slapped to our face, being as obvious as the day
And space? Yeah Ig we are gonna ignore the fact that everything else is erased, partly the reason as to why space and shit crumbles apart as we see in the manga, diavolo saying everything else disappears in a world of erased time, the king crimson stand stats panel saying that what remains is only forecast-esque images, etc. Just re read the Manga. Ah, dont go "bring the scans on me" Because you seriously do need to re read it. (Not entirely, just focus on the parts where diavolo/king crimson appears and there you go)

Why are we saying ger? Im talking about rtz. Rtz itself is outside of space time, because space time itself is erased, it doesnt exist. Like literally, space time continuum itself is deleted my dude. (Universal scale duh)
Why is rtz outside of space time? Because it can act and work EVEN without the existence of space time itself, along with cause, (what remains is the effect, diavolo even says so. Cause is erased, what remains is only the result) no surprise. Though tbh, that feat for rtz would be NEP, but dunno which type. but anyways, rtz can still work even without the existence of the universe and it's space time.

Also, when I say "will to act". I mean the moment you are intending to perform something, or do something. That instance where diavolo became confident after checking epitaph and started monologuing? Thats when he had the actions in mind, the will to act, to perform erased time. What rtz did when diavolo thought he was about to win and was close to punching giorno, rtz started to revert diavolo all the way back, before he even monologued. Start from here

1. Diavolo doesnt act, he first determines as to whether he should act or not. In the second scan/panel, he now has the will to act, (intent. in his mind, he has the actions of what he wants to do so to speak.)


2. We see Diavolo get returned to the same exact position as before. He even says so.


Long story short, this aint time manipulation. He literally reverted Diavolo all the way back, to where he had the will to act (Refer to first imgur link. Second imgur link confirms what I said in first imgur link). Ger's stand stats panel even says so.


Fun fact, JoJo's cosmology, specifically Part 1-6 works on Theory of relativity, as it follows these rules to an extent. (Specifically, time and space being connected)


There are also other scans in P5 where erased time also extends to space being erased alongside too but im lazy atm to find it.

 

[Thelastmlg]

Disagree with rtz being time manip too, he simple nullified king crimson's time skip, to do so he would need to revert time but that's just the effect of nullifying it, not inherit RTZ, can't exactly reverse time when it doesn't exist

 

[Chariot190]

To his body control: Has some control over the things he gives life over, having telekinetically brought back his severed hand infused with his powers from the ground back to his body

Ok.

GER's Return to Zero should be Time Manip too. Yes, it is mainly Causality Manip, but it also reverses time by any definition of the word. In this topic, Mista shot within erased time -- specifically having aimed before the Time Erase -- then he was reversed and had to aim again

The sequence of events and things being returned even before he did time skip checks out, but whether it's time manip or something else remains to be seen, unsure. It might still just be causality manip.

Limited Acausality (Type 1) due to keeping his memories only in the activation of BtD, meaning when he killed Hayato and what he was aiming to do in the end of DiU. Otherwise he lacks this.

I mean, I get the logic behind it, but I'm not sure acausality type 1 is the proper term, he retains his memories from the previous loop upon setting BTD, but I'm not sure we'd call the acausality, do we treat other dudes who remember the future when they use time rewind abilities as limited acausal type 1? Given that's a pretty common ability there should be other examples. If so sure I guess going by wiki standards, if not then idk maybe just elaborate on it and call it a day.

His High-Low regen as a ghost should be removed.

Wrong, he can reform himself, up to at least being able to reattach limbs, it's standard High-Low regen.

More Extrasensory Perception via Joestar-Senses

I'd put it as limited because it only works with a specific set of people but sure.

Animal Manipulation for White Snake via this

I mean, I guess? It's less animal manipulation and more biomanip+commanding/mind hax given that's how discs work and he already has both, biomanip is even listed for this very feat, but I guess technically it would enable animal manip? Idk in that same vain you could stretch his abilities for a lot of extra things, so I'm neutral on this, technically not wrong but also a tad superfluous.
While we're at it, give him some other wacky shit tho, he basically created intelligent life and a whole new species of supernatural animal in F.F.Should have memory manip if he doesn't already.

Jolyne Cujoh should have Immortality (None normally, up to type 2 with her powers) via this

Sure, but it's important to note we actually have a line as to how much she can unravel, her heart is also something she can't **** with, at least, before she learned how to mobius strip.

Johnny and Gyro should not have their "Resistance to Probability Manipulation" as Valentine's wall doesn't warp probability on others, it just takes bad luck away via spatial manip, which is what their rotation breaks. You break the walls, you don't have to deal with the Probability Manip

Part 7 stuff can wait till after MGS, most of it is done anyhow, though I was thinking of adding featboxes to avoid clutter in the technique section, would help with Gyro given instead of just listing off like a hundred feats and utility of spin in a messy large as **** paragraph or list, we can slap them in a bullet point feat list which would be way cleaner.

Enhanced Senses: Detected Risotto and Pol spying on him meters away, from behind, and while being Doppio. Could tell that Bruno was a corpse (not very impressive, but still remarked as illogic by Doppio due to Bruno being able to move and "see")

Ye.

More Extrasensory Perception: Could sense her daughter still being alive, and knew that he and her had a similar scent of their souls.

Probably only limited to those he has a spiritual connection toward but ye.

Limited Soul Manipulation: Gave Doppio the scent of his soul.

Ye.

Limited Resistance to Soul Manipulation: When CR soul-switched everyone, Diavolo as a soul took advantage of that and decided to move into another body, process he likely shouldn't be able to do on his own. By contrast, everyone else's souls were trapped in the bodies CR put them in. Diavolo cannot fly with his soul out of his body at will, he simply took advantage of CR having manipulated the souls in his body

Ye.

Limited Possession: Can take over the soul of the body he inhabits, violently taking over Doppio after brief seconds when deciding to do so and directly possessing Trish by manually controlling her Stand. Giorno speculates that the Boss having a double personality could justify his ability to possess a target. He ony seems to have this ability within his own body and would need to manually control the Stand (if they have one) of another if he's in another body.

Ye.

Body Control & limited Memory Manip: When taking over Doppio and leaving as him, his body changes musculature, and Doppio forgets what happened without wondering about the time that happened while Diavolo was in control. When using Trish's body, the same happened to her memories, disbelieving the idea of being possessed.

Ye but important to not it's basically just "self" body control and memory manip, or I guess in theory those he possesses as well.

BS Intelligence feats to add: Could discover that Bruno only sees the souls of others with little info about it. Could discover how CR's weakness works by pretty much making up rules about it.

Ye.

Most of this lacks scans and a proposed wording to be added on profiles, and I would really appreciate help there due to lack of time.

I have most of these scans saved somewhere, I'll toss a few imgur albums together later along with Ch. number.

Aside from it the only thing left would be how Heaven DIO and EoH Jotaro's "possibly 3-A to Low 2-C" stats are wrong, but that's for another time.

Definitely not the only thing, there's like a solid 5 JoJo CRT's 80 to 90%+ done (If someone wants to calc Plat bending prison bars, the LS CRT could be dropped almost immediately), just been busy irl (minus the part 6 ones, been waiting for anime stuff before finishing those for extra context or clarification on a few things) and with MGS because that's my life now apparently and has been for the last two months (getting close to the halfway pint tho so sooner or later). As for EOH, see above.

No, I find pretty simple why it's wrong. Also out of the 3 staff who agreed with that 2 agreed with me that it was wrong and 1, Cal, never replied to me on the topic and isn't a staff anymore.

And? You can't really just ignore the 20 something normal users who disagreed with you for the 2 staff who aren't even that knowledgeable on the subject matter to begin with and Cal who knowing him probably just didn't reply because arguing is a hassle, you realize how bad you sound right? Staff or not, it'ds more important to actually know what the **** you're talking about.
Also did you just miss the part I mentioned raws? I've gone through the whole japanese game including filler dialogue (Bought a Japanese physical copy), there's actually quite a bit lost in translation, though guess it isn't surprising given how ass english JoJo translations tend to be.

But I will say lad, you have kind of a bad habit of making claims yet not actually doing all the needed research yourself to see if it checks out, case and point. Kira regen below, took me a whole ten seconds to grab the scans, if you did the needed research you'd know it was legit, but instead of doing that you just went "nah remove it", if you're gonna make CRT's to remove or add things, make sure you know for a fact ahead of time, or at least the very least do a Q&A thread or DM someone who might know if you can't find why, and I mean that in general for everybody, not even just for JoJo but any verse, best to check first before causing unneeded trouble.

Why would that be?

Complete overhaul of every notable character from stats, abilities additions and de-additions, speed to even just the the profile images and what not (got some nice renders, took awhile to do by hand but they nice) and what not already in the works, has been for awhile, M3X was helping as well but he's gone now unfortunately, besides some feat boxes and Johnny of all dudes, a lot of the work is done, though I'd say only Diego is really 100% good to go given I did the cleanup on him already back in February, though Gyro and Funny just need some clean up, Johnny needs some work though and someone made a Sandman profile and it's kinda bad no offense to whoever did that so that's extra work. Hamon and Part 7 stuff probably dropping after the MGS stuff me and Armor and a few other lads are doing as that's been waiting for almost 3 years now so kinda takes priority and with MGS's sudden resurgence in popularity, having profiles that have a lot of completely wrong shit is a huge issue, and a huge amount of work has already started on it so may as well finish it.

It keeps on reversing stuff going passed the Time Erase, there is no point to point out how time was deleted twice. GER doesn't just revert "actions" but Causality/cause & consequence, time being in it. Your argument that GER also negs will doesn't work as it can do that while also doing what I say, there is no logical conection between "GER negs will" and "thus, it cannot reverse time" because it changes nothing that it can do both.

Technically that isnt even true, there is no "RTZ is this" or "RTZ is that", to be blunt, we don't know what the **** RTZ is, it's never actually been clarified, just stated what it can do. Honestly if you want to get anal about it it's probably closer to some fucky numerical shit.
Though when he said "will" he's saying RTZ might have just negated Diavolo's "will" to attack, as in RTZ RTZ'd them back to when Diavolo decided to attack, I think anyway.

\Erased time doesn't erase cause, it manipulates it, people and things still do actions in it, actions and consequences to those actions. If by that you also meant some esoteric mechanic of how King Crimson works then it should be clear how that's made up, and it would still don't matter as GER still does what I say after the erased time. Time Erase also doesn't erase space, it just manipulates it.

You're actually wrong on that front, though that's understandable because it isn't actually explained anywhere in the manga except in vague off hand statements you wouldn't even realize are talking about it unless you had the supplementary info.
Nobody does anything in Time Skip, because they don't exist, neither does their actions nor the cause, even the images we see of people in time skip are just that, images, they aren't actually there, the reason why actions they would have taken still have end-results is because of fate actually, the consequences of those actions are guaranteed to happen still as it's destined to, so even though they themselves and the actions they take no longer exist, when time resumes back to normal, even though technically speaking things did not occur, the fact the consequences of those events are fated to happen makes it so it does (Think of it vaguely like how in BTD, things always happen the same way because fate forces it too, it's similar to that kind of). Only Diavolo himself can exempt himself from fate via time skip, iirc he actually has a line talking about avoiding the pitfalls of fate, which while you wouldn't think anything of it, is explicitly talking about this mechanic.
It's pretty complex and poorly explained in manga but it does indeed delete cause, technically speaking it might be better to list it as unconventional fate manip instead, maybe that's a CRT for another day tho.

Disagree with rtz being time manip too, he simple nullified king crimson's time skip, to do so he would need to revert time but that's just the effect of nullifying it, not inherit RTZ, can't exactly reverse time when it doesn't exist

While I get what you're saying, it is true that GER RTZ'd to before time skip was used (As in after the RTZ was done, he didn't just RTZ Diavolo, but they were placed a good half minute before he even used his ability), which is where Efi is going "he reversed time" as they were put back quite a bit before time skip was even activated, though while I get what he's saying, that doesn't mean it's time manip, it can still just be causality manip still.

 

[TheGunsFinalWrath]

Ok.

The sequence of events and things being returned even before he did time skip checks out, but whether it's time manip or something else remains to be seen, unsure. It might still just be causality manip.

I mean, I get the logic behind it, but I'm not sure acausality type 1 is the proper term, he retains his memories from the previous loop upon setting BTD, but I'm not sure we'd call the acausality, do we treat other dudes who remember the future when they use time rewind abilities as limited acausal type 1? Given that's a pretty common ability there should be other examples. If so sure I guess going by wiki standards, if not then idk maybe just elaborate on it and call it a day.

Wrong, he can reform himself, up to at least being able to reattach limbs, it's standard High-Low regen.

I'd put it as limited because it only works with a specific set of people but sure.

I mean, I guess? It's less animal manipulation and more biomanip+commanding/mind hax given that's how discs work and he already has both, biomanip is even listed for this very feat, but I guess technically it would enable animal manip? Idk in that same vain you could stretch his abilities for a lot of extra things, so I'm neutral on this, technically not wrong but also a tad superfluous.
While we're at it, give him some other wacky shit tho, he basically created intelligent life and a whole new species of supernatural animal in F.F.Should have memory manip if he doesn't already.

Sure, but it's important to note we actually have a line as to how much she can unravel, her heart is also something she can't **** with, at least, before she learned how to mobius strip.

Part 7 stuff can wait till after MGS, most of it is done anyhow, though I was thinking of adding featboxes to avoid clutter in the technique section, would help with Gyro given instead of just listing off like a hundred feats and utility of spin in a messy large as **** paragraph or list, we can slap them in a bullet point feat list which would be way cleaner.

Ye.

Probably only limited to those he has a spiritual connection toward but ye.

Ye.

Ye.

Ye.

Ye but important to not it's basically just "self" body control and memory manip, or I guess in theory those he possesses as well.

Ye.

I have most of these scans saved somewhere, I'll toss a few imgur albums together later along with Ch. number.

Definitely not the only thing, there's like a solid 5 JoJo CRT's 80 to 90%+ done (If someone wants to calc Plat bending prison bars, the LS CRT could be dropped almost immediately), just been busy irl (minus the part 6 ones, been waiting for anime stuff before finishing those for extra context or clarification on a few things) and with MGS because that's my life now apparently and has been for the last two months (getting close to the halfway pint tho so sooner or later). As for EOH, see above.

And? You can't really just ignore the 20 something normal users who disagreed with you for the 2 staff who aren't even that knowledgeable on the subject matter to begin with and Cal who knowing him probably just didn't reply because arguing is a hassle, you realize how bad you sound right? Staff or not, it'ds more important to actually know what the **** you're talking about.
Also did you just miss the part I mentioned raws? I've gone through the whole japanese game including filler dialogue (Bought a Japanese physical copy), there's actually quite a bit lost in translation, though guess it isn't surprising given how ass english JoJo translations tend to be.

But I will say lad, you have kind of a bad habit of making claims yet not actually doing all the needed research yourself to see if it checks out, case and point. Kira regen below, took me a whole ten seconds to grab the scans, if you did the needed research you'd know it was legit, but instead of doing that you just went "nah remove it", if you're gonna make CRT's to remove or add things, make sure you know for a fact ahead of time, or at least the very least do a Q&A thread or DM someone who might know if you can't find why, and I mean that in general for everybody, not even just for JoJo but any verse, best to check first before causing unneeded trouble.

Complete overhaul of every notable character from stats, abilities additions and de-additions, speed to even just the the profile images and what not (got some nice renders, took awhile to do by hand but they nice) and what not already in the works, has been for awhile, M3X was helping as well but he's gone now unfortunately, besides some feat boxes and Johnny of all dudes, a lot of the work is done, though I'd say only Diego is really 100% good to go given I did the cleanup on him already back in February, though Gyro and Funny just need some clean up, Johnny needs some work though and someone made a Sandman profile and it's kinda bad no offense to whoever did that so that's extra work. Hamon and Part 7 stuff probably dropping after the MGS stuff me and Armor and a few other lads are doing as that's been waiting for almost 3 years now so kinda takes priority and with MGS's sudden resurgence in popularity, having profiles that have a lot of completely wrong shit is a huge issue, and a huge amount of work has already started on it so may as well finish it.

Technically that isnt even true, there is no "RTZ is this" or "RTZ is that", to be blunt, we don't know what the **** RTZ is, it's never actually been clarified, just stated what it can do. Honestly if you want to get anal about it it's probably closer to some fucky numerical shit.
Though when he said "will" he's saying RTZ might have just negated Diavolo's "will" to attack, as in RTZ RTZ'd them back to when Diavolo decided to attack, I think anyway.

You're actually wrong on that front, though that's understandable because it isn't actually explained anywhere in the manga except in vague off hand statements you wouldn't even realize are talking about it unless you had the supplementary info.
Nobody does anything in Time Skip, because they don't exist, neither does their actions nor the cause, even the images we see of people in time skip are just that, images, they aren't actually there, the reason why actions they would have taken still have end-results is because of fate actually, the consequences of those actions are guaranteed to happen still as it's destined to, so even though they themselves and the actions they take no longer exist, when time resumes back to normal, even though technically speaking things did not occur, the fact the consequences of those events are fated to happen makes it so it does (Think of it vaguely like how in BTD, things always happen the same way because fate forces it too, it's similar to that kind of). Only Diavolo himself can exempt himself from fate via time skip, iirc he actually has a line talking about avoiding the pitfalls of fate, which while you wouldn't think anything of it, is explicitly talking about this mechanic.
It's pretty complex and poorly explained in manga but it does indeed delete cause, technically speaking it might be better to list it as unconventional fate manip instead, maybe that's a CRT for another day tho.

While I get what you're saying, it is true that GER RTZ'd to before time skip was used (As in after the RTZ was done, he didn't just RTZ Diavolo, but they were placed a good half minute before he even used his ability), which is where Efi is going "he reversed time" as they were put back quite a bit before time skip was even activated, though while I get what he's saying, that doesn't mean it's time manip, it can still just be causality manip still.

Though when he said "will" he's saying RTZ might have just negated Diavolo's "will" to attack, as in RTZ RTZ'd them back to when Diavolo decided to attack, I think anyway.

Exactly. You understood me well. I dont mean will manipulation or anything. Its just that, actions can also extend to the intent to do so. Its similar as to how we think of grabbing a remote controller for example, that doesnt happen instantly, we think of it, and the rest is us getting up and grabbing it or whatever. The scans I posted show how diavolo checks epitaph first, once he is sure of what he saw, he started yelling (whilst in his mind, once he finished his monologue as he thinks, he'll drop time erase. Thats what he does in character. Epitaph, and then time erase. Simple.

Edit: Also thinking about it now, rtz is said to scale above all haxes too in jojo (Part 3 to Early Part 8 stands, up to Nut king stand). This extends to even thought based haxes in jojo, etc etc. So what rtz did is basically that tbh. (more or less)

 

[Shey]

Erased time doesn't erase cause,

I'll have to stop you right there

 

[TheGunsFinalWrath]

(First image shows the JoJoVeller page) (Second image focuses on that specific part)


Read description in the imgur link.. or i can simply just post it here

Raws:『ジョジョ』という物語では、特殊な才能や強い精神力を持つ生命の精神エネルギーが、様々な形状に象られ具象化する現象を「スタンド」と名付けている。スタンドは、時には物質を破壊し、時には疫病を撒き散らし、時には時間や空間を支配して世界のルールに干渉できるほどの超常的な力を持つ無限の可能性”を秘めた能力である。
DeepL: [In the story "Jojo," the phenomenon in which the mental energy of a life form with special talents and strong mental powers is embodied in various forms is called a "stand. A Stand is an ability with "unlimited potential" that sometimes destroys matter, sometimes spreads pestilence, and sometimes has such supernatural power that it can control time and space and interfere with the rules of the world.]


No humans will experience the erased time" Definition of experience(as a verb): encounter or undergo (an event or occurrence).
If they were there they would experience it

Meaning, space too does not exist

 

[Eficiente]

please just re-read the manga again. We literally have the "erased cause" slapped to our face, being as obvious as the day

No, to say that "cause" is erased is a made up interpretation of what's going on when a similar but different thing is what's going on. When we first see an erased time, Diavolo says that "all actions are meaningless" and "only he can react to those actions", if you only take the former in a vacuum you could maybe interpret that he means all actions are erased (if you somehow don't take meaningless at face value first), but Diavolo immediately follows it up with how he reacts to those actions. The actions are not erased, they are still there, the actions are followed up by more actions that are followed up by more actions, which Diavolo reacts to, but all those actions aren't going to affect Diavolo at all and nor will anyone remember what they did in those actions. So again, "cause" is manipulated.

And space? Yeah Ig we are gonna ignore the fact that everything else is erased, partly the reason as to why space and shit crumbles apart as we see in the manga, diavolo saying everything else disappears in a world of erased time, the king crimson stand stats panel saying that what remains is only forecast-esque images, etc. Just re read the Manga. Ah, dont go "bring the scans on me" Because you seriously do need to re read it. (Not entirely, just focus on the parts where diavolo/king crimson appears and there you go)

No need to talk in sarcasm and repeat the same for a 3rt time this shortly. "The king crimson stand stats panel saying that what remains is only forecast-esque images" would be a big claim there, but it's not what it says, just that it sees others like that. Things around, background and stuff do crumble apart, yes. Living beings don't, and Diavolo can even throw his blood at them, which collides with them to bend in reaction to where it was thrown and stays there.

Like literally, space time continuum itself is deleted my dude. (Universal scale duh)

That's an underwhelming, imprecise use of the space time continuum.

Also, when I say "will to act". I mean the moment you are intending to perform something, or do something. That instance where diavolo became confident after checking epitaph and started monologuing? Thats when he had the actions in mind, the will to act, to perform erased time. What rtz did when diavolo thought he was about to win and was close to punching giorno, rtz started to revert diavolo all the way back, before he even monologued. Start from here

1. Diavolo doesnt act, he first determines as to whether he should act or not. In the second scan/panel, he now has the will to act, (intent. in his mind, he has the actions of what he wants to do so to speak.)


2. We see Diavolo get returned to the same exact position as before. He even says so.


Long story short, this aint time manipulation. He literally reverted Diavolo all the way back, to where he had the will to act (Refer to first imgur link. Second imgur link confirms what I said in first imgur link).

This is not relevant because RtZ doesn't just affect the individual of Diavolo.

Ger's stand stats panel even says so.

This is not relevant because that's not wrong, it's the way in which it reverts the attacker's actions that also gives it Time Manip on top of its main power.

Fun fact, JoJo's cosmology, specifically Part 1-6 works on Theory of relativity, as it follows these rules to an extent. (Specifically, time and space being connected)


There are also other scans in P5 where erased time also extends to space being erased alongside too but im lazy atm to find it.

This is even more irrelevant as the manipulation of all the concepts talked about is the same regardless of the theories followed by the verse.

Disagree with rtz being time manip too, he simple nullified king crimson's time skip, to do so he would need to revert time but that's just the effect of nullifying it, not inherit RTZ, can't exactly reverse time when it doesn't exist

If it were to simply nullify King Crimson's time skip it wouldn't have reverted Mista.

I mean, I get the logic behind it, but I'm not sure acausality type 1 is the proper term, he retains his memories from the previous loop upon setting BTD, but I'm not sure we'd call the acausality, do we treat other dudes who remember the future when they use time rewind abilities as limited acausal type 1? Given that's a pretty common ability there should be other examples. If so sure I guess going by wiki standards, if not then idk maybe just elaborate on it and call it a day.

Works as well.

Part 7 stuff can wait till after MGS, most of it is done anyhow, though I was thinking of adding featboxes to avoid clutter in the technique section, would help with Gyro given instead of just listing off like a hundred feats and utility of spin in a messy large as **** paragraph or list, we can slap them in a bullet point feat list which would be way cleaner.

Ok

Probably only limited to those he has a spiritual connection toward but ye.

I think he knows the scent of souls in general? We would need to see.

And? You can't really just ignore the 20 something normal users who disagreed with you for the 2 staff who aren't even that knowledgeable on the subject matter to begin with and Cal who knowing him probably just didn't reply because arguing is a hassle, you realize how bad you sound right? Staff or not, it'ds more important to actually know what the **** you're talking about.

There could have been 40 something users, I have seen that much being wrong on topics and know that can happen, but what really matters to me individually is my take on the matter.

Also did you just miss the part I mentioned raws? I've gone through the whole japanese game including filler dialogue (Bought a Japanese physical copy), there's actually quite a bit lost in translation, though guess it isn't surprising given how ass english JoJo translations tend to be.

But I will say lad, you have kind of a bad habit of making claims yet not actually doing all the needed research yourself to see if it checks out, case and point. Kira regen below, took me a whole ten seconds to grab the scans, if you did the needed research you'd know it was legit, but instead of doing that you just went "nah remove it", if you're gonna make CRT's to remove or add things, make sure you know for a fact ahead of time, or at least the very least do a Q&A thread or DM someone who might know if you can't find why, and I mean that in general for everybody, not even just for JoJo but any verse, best to check first before causing unneeded trouble.

I'm sure that adds a lot of general info but I can't get my hopes up for anything tierwise. In any case, yes I do not know what you got there. I asked about the Kira regen in a former thread, they told me they didn't know, I didn't remember the feat and more notably, the profile linked nothing. Can you please don't normalize this attitude of making a deal out of the research others do when a profile itself doesn't link key stuff related to the claims made around? You would be surprised of the amount of people that can grab this in and use it as an excuse to be rude, to say the least.

Technically that isnt even true, there is no "RTZ is this" or "RTZ is that", to be blunt, we don't know what the **** RTZ is, it's never actually been clarified, just stated what it can do.

That's pretty accurate. I see Time Manip as a conclusion that can and should be made based on what we know.

You're actually wrong on that front, though that's understandable because it isn't actually explained anywhere in the manga except in vague off hand statements you wouldn't even realize are talking about it unless you had the supplementary info.
Nobody does anything in Time Skip, because they don't exist, neither does their actions nor the cause, even the images we see of people in time skip are just that, images, they aren't actually there, the reason why actions they would have taken still have end-results is because of fate actually, the consequences of those actions are guaranteed to happen still as it's destined to, so even though they themselves and the actions they take no longer exist, when time resumes back to normal, even though technically speaking things did not occur, the fact the consequences of those events are fated to happen makes it so it does (Think of it vaguely like how in BTD, things always happen the same way because fate forces it too, it's similar to that kind of). Only Diavolo himself can exempt himself from fate via time skip, iirc he actually has a line talking about avoiding the pitfalls of fate, which while you wouldn't think anything of it, is explicitly talking about this mechanic.
It's pretty complex and poorly explained in manga but it does indeed delete cause, technically speaking it might be better to list it as unconventional fate manip instead, maybe that's a CRT for another day tho.

Do we have this supplementary info?

 

[Chariot190]

There could have been 40 something users, I have seen that much being wrong on topics and know that can happen, but what really matters to me individually is my take on the matter.

No offense but that comes off as extremely egotistical, if 40 lads disagree with you, many of which are knowledgeable, perhaps maybe it's not everyone else who's wrong, but yourself? And I don't wanna come off as rude here but I would 100% say 40+ users outweigh your opinion, grossly at that, hell if 40+ users disagreed with me I'd take a step back and probably re-evaluate what the hell it is I'm doing that would have that many go against me.
There's a very, very, good reason why we tend to have shit down to votes in order for people to not just stonewall, plus, sorry Efi, but something tells me you haven't done the needed research to make such a bold claim as "it's wrong" without any potential reasonability of doubt, I can get having doubts with it, his profile is in need of clean up and a bunch of extra scans wouldn't hurt, honestly HA Dio isn't even the worst offender, Novel Kars and Dio are offensively bad and lacking and need a huge overhaul sometime in the future but in EOH's case there's a lot of the extra dialogue between chapters that has some nice info, not just for that, but things in general for our two profiles (Like EOH Plat could probably scale above Kars based on some few lines, rift and corpse lore too, could maybe squeeze a few additions out of that).

That's pretty accurate. I see Time Manip as a conclusion that can and should be made based on what we know.

It's definitely not time manip, for a few reasons but the least of which it being activated and working in time skip, which obviously lacks time to manipulate in the first place, I don't think I need to explain why that's a complete paradoxical claim unless we say he can manipulate non-existent time, but at that point, he's obviously doing something different.
Plus it's not treated as time manip in any guide, bio, supplementary info, etc, it's more like extremely weird nullification if you want to simplify the **** outta of it I think? Causality manip to a degree makes sense in that he removes the result though, but that comes off as more a byproduct rather then the main cause. What that main cause is though? We don't know shrug.

I'm sure that adds a lot of general info but I can't get my hopes up for anything tierwise. In any case, yes I do not know what you got there.

I mean, I wouldn't say High 3-A if I didn't think there's a lot going for it tbh, no I'm not talking about the Funny Valentine thing or infinite power line, before you jump to conclusions. And yes you don't know, and it isn't fair for me or anyone to expect you to know, but it should also be fair to expect you to do your own in-depth research before making any threads, as just a general rule and proper etiquette.

I asked about the Kira regen in a former thread, they told me they didn't know, I didn't remember the feat and more notably, the profile linked nothing.

Who's "they"? DMQ isn't even long, it's like, a volume and a half, if they don't know, they probably just never read it.

Can you please don't normalize this attitude of making a deal out of the research others do when a profile itself doesn't link key stuff related to the claims made around? You would be surprised of the amount of people that can grab this in and use it as an excuse to be rude, to say the least.

Unfortunately, I disagree, if someone wants to make a CRT, whoever that person might be, it's their obligation to do the research needed. I mean case and point, let's say nobody brought up that Kira feat and I was busy or didn't see this thread (which is possible, just got over being very ill) and it got removed. That isn't making the profile more accurate, it's actively making it inaccurate, it's flat-out wrong. You said above you care if something is accurate above, correct? Yet things like this don't help in that vain, it actively makes it worse, it's counterintuitive. Of course, the profile should link it and have scans and citations, I agree with that and that's obvious to anyone who's seen some of my MGS drafts or jojo reworks, but in that case, make the effort to fix that, not remove it and make it worse, if you just did the needed research you'd know, could've fixed it by adding it and wouldn't run the risk of making a worse profile.

Before you or anyone wants to make a thread on something, make sure it's right, make sure you've gone through everything, make sure nothing is left out, skimming isn't sufficient, if you don't remember, go through everything again just to be safe, or if you can't, ask someone who might know, and if you don't, well, put in on the back till you can confirm it somehow. I'd much rather normalize this attitude over normalizing half-ass attempts in research or attempts at downgrades (and upgrades as well, I've seen my fair share of upgrades that just took one piece of info in a vacuum and ran with it despite it being wrong, like that old 2-A Love Train thread due to "transcending dimensions", which is completely out of context).
On a semi-related note, I stand by that if someone things tiering is wrong or a calc is wrong, they should have replacements in place too, making a thread and then everyone having to drop stuff to do new calcs has happened a lot and it's kinda annoying tbh. Speaking in general here, not just JoJo.

Do we have this supplementary info?

I own the guides yes, pretty sure I have most of King Crimson's scans in a imgur album albeit already somewhere. I can maybe throw something together when I have some more free time, though Demi also has a lot of the relevant scans. Though I could throw the Veller scans in particular at you if you want, should have those saved in a imgur already. Though, some of the scans are linked on the profile last I checked too.

I think he knows the scent of souls in general? We would need to see.

Hmm, looking at Diavolo says he doesn't actually specify, he just says he and his daughter share a scent and he gave Doppio that specific aspect of his soul (Which I guess is extra self-soul manip on his end, being able to grant specific aspects of it), but if we look at earlier arcs, he seems to be referring to that link he and his daughter have but I can't exactly prove or disprove if Diavolo himself can sense others like that, so shrug, neutral on this.
Diavolo says a lot of wacky shit though when saying this like how he knew Bruno's eardrums were burst against Secco or how he's been a corpse since they met in Venezia, some shit he shouldn't actually know for sure. I didn't check the raw tho, I'm low on space but you can find most of JoJo's raws on nya or Mega.

 

[Eficiente]

No offense but that comes off as extremely egotistical, if 40 lads disagree with you, many of which are knowledgeable, perhaps maybe it's not everyone else who's wrong, but yourself? And I don't wanna come off as rude here but I would 100% say 40+ users outweigh your opinion, grossly at that, hell if 40+ users disagreed with me I'd take a step back and probably re-evaluate what the hell it is I'm doing that would have that many go against me.
There's a very, very, good reason why we tend to have shit down to votes in order for people to not just stonewall, plus, sorry Efi, but something tells me you haven't done the needed research to make such a bold claim as "it's wrong" without any potential reasonability of doubt, I can get having doubts with it, his profile is in need of clean up and a bunch of extra scans wouldn't hurt, honestly HA Dio isn't even the worst offender, Novel Kars and Dio are offensively bad and lacking and need a huge overhaul sometime in the future but in EOH's case there's a lot of the extra dialogue between chapters that has some nice info, not just for that, but things in general for our two profiles (Like EOH Plat could probably scale above Kars based on some few lines, rift and corpse lore too, could maybe squeeze a few additions out of that).

It's not egotistical to have an opinion unlike the opinion of others, regardless of being outnumbered, nor should that cause one to change their opinion. It's even healthy. If one changes their opinion it should be because they logically conclude they should, not due being outnumbered or the presumed position of knowledge of others. Needless to say this doesn't apply to everyone or all context, I have sufficient confidence of what I know of Vs Debates, JoJo, this topic and I'm sure of that particular opinion I had, if I was lacking in all that and my opinion was made w/o much effort it wouldn't be the same. So I expressed an opinion, I can do that w/o this back and forth happening, that's something ok to do regardless of if it's disagreeing with others.

I believe it's wrong based on the profile and the thread that made the upgrade, but we will see what more there is.

It's definitely not time manip, for a few reasons but the least of which it being activated and working in time skip, which obviously lacks time to manipulate in the first place, I don't think I need to explain why that's a complete paradoxical claim unless we say he can manipulate non-existent time, but at that point, he's obviously doing something different.
Plus it's not treated as time manip in any guide, bio, supplementary info, etc, it's more like extremely weird nullification if you want to simplify the **** outta of it I think? Causality manip to a degree makes sense in that he removes the result though, but that comes off as more a byproduct rather then the main cause. What that main cause is though? We don't know shrug.

Well, if Time Erase erases time and manipulates actions so that they don't matter, and RtZ reverts actions to revert the Time Erase and more actions around even before the Time Erase, it would make perfect sense that this actions are connected to time. The RtZ isn't moving Mista's body via TK, possession or something else, out of the "actions" or "will" we know GER reverts, it was his actions being affected, but "actions" doesn't have its common use here but the same use Diavolo gives it, actions as in cause and consequence/Causality in an universal sense, and while to manipulate that may be Causality Manip, to put it in reverse is also Time Manip. In more rough words, GER was putting reality in reverse, time is part of reality, therefore GER has Time Manip, which is not the same as to say that GER has Whatever Manip due to manipulating reality as it was only doing it in a very specific way.

I mean, I wouldn't say High 3-A if I didn't think there's a lot going for it tbh, no I'm not talking about the Funny Valentine thing or infinite power line, before you jump to conclusions. And yes you don't know, and it isn't fair for me or anyone to expect you to know, but it should also be fair to expect you to do your own in-depth research before making any threads, as just a general rule and proper etiquette.

It would have been fine for me or for anyone to make a thread based on what profiles say, this could have hypothetically been a thread only to downgrade HA DIO, you could have proved me wrong via new info, and it would have been fine for me to make the thread, as in "I'm free to do the thread and there is no issue to it", no "I'm free to do the thread but the lack of further research means I annoy others by doing so in a way that I can be called out for".

Unfortunately, I disagree, if someone wants to make a CRT, whoever that person might be, it's their obligation to do the research needed. I mean case and point, let's say nobody brought up that Kira feat and I was busy or didn't see this thread (which is possible, just got over being very ill) and it got removed. That isn't making the profile more accurate, it's actively making it inaccurate, it's flat-out wrong. You said above you care if something is accurate above, correct? Yet things like this don't help in that vain, it actively makes it worse, it's counterintuitive. Of course, the profile should link it and have scans and citations, I agree with that and that's obvious to anyone who's seen some of my MGS drafts or jojo reworks, but in that case, make the effort to fix that, not remove it and make it worse, if you just did the needed research you'd know, could've fixed it by adding it and wouldn't run the risk of making a worse profile.


Before you or anyone wants to make a thread on something, make sure it's right, make sure you've gone through everything, make sure nothing is left out, skimming isn't sufficient, if you don't remember, go through everything again just to be safe, or if you can't, ask someone who might know, and if you don't, well, put in on the back till you can confirm it somehow. I'd much rather normalize this attitude over normalizing half-ass attempts in research or attempts at downgrades (and upgrades as well, I've seen my fair share of upgrades that just took one piece of info in a vacuum and ran with it despite it being wrong, like that old 2-A Love Train thread due to "transcending dimensions", which is completely out of context).

It's not their obligation to do further research beyond what we have available via profiles, pages and blogs, how we do structure the wiki and how we aren't supposed to take priority. Yes in this case "something with no evidence was claimed in a profile, was asked to be removed and it turns out that it did have evidence", but to point out how to remove it would have been inaccurate to the character is not better than to point out how it would have been accurate to a character in a context where the evidence for a power didn't exist. It's not something to examplify how people should always to research beyond the profiles in that sense. People can do further research than what profiles and stuff say but that the wiki is the priority doesn't mean that they obligatorily should, I refer to the wiki as it is being the priority, meaning that claims as they are with no evidence are as good as to ask blind/unearn trust on them. Ask them to be removed with as much lack of evidence is not something wrong to be called out for.

It's definitely extra good to do all that, but a nobility isn't a standard, and if the standard was bad rather than good our rules should change to reflect that.

 

[Mamaroza]

Pekala, Zaman Silme, zamanı siler ve eylemleri önemli olmayacak şekilde değiştirirse ve RtZ, Zaman Silme işlemini ve daha fazla eylemi Zaman Silme işleminden öncesine döndürmek için eylemleri geri alırsa, bu eylemlerin zamanla bağlantılı olması çok mantıklı olacaktır. RtZ, Mista'nın bedenini TK, sahiplik veya başka bir şey aracılığıyla, GER'nin geri döndüğünü bildiğimiz "eylemler" veya "irade" dışında hareket ettirmiyor, etkilenen eylemleriydi, ancak "eylemler" burada ortak bir kullanıma sahip değil, ancak Diavolo'nun ona verdiği aynı kullanım, evrensel anlamda neden ve sonuç/Nedensellik gibi eylemler ve bunu manipüle etmek Nedensellik Manipi olabilirken, tersine çevirmek de Zaman Manipidir. Daha kaba bir ifadeyle, GER gerçeği tersine çeviriyordu, zaman gerçekliğin bir parçası, bu nedenle GER'de Zaman Manipi var,

Is Giorno's causality manipulation 4D?

 

[Da3ggman]

I basically have the same opinion as Chariot.