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Trained enough to stealth kill several assassins and High Table elite soldiers.
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John Wick vs Deckard Shaw
- Thread starter GojiBoyForever
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- deckard shaw john wick
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Actually, John is skilled enough to make Zero seem like a child once he really got serious at the end. John managed to escape Zeros sight. As for how long John was in the marines I'd have to look into that again but he's been though 5 tours of duty. In the marines he was in the 3rd battalion so he's definitely been in for longer than 10 years.
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Hellbeast1 said:
Trained enough to effortlessly slaugher entire Organizations of highly trained assassins. John completely humiliated all of them while being heavily injured from his previous fights. Zero also taught them. Keep in mind John did this on horseback and on a motorcycle which makes it even more impressive.
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Yes it is very different training. Still, my point is, most secret agents have still received military and marine training. They receive spy training on top of what they already know, because you usually have to be trained in all those areas to even be eligible for undercover spy/agent work
So an Mi6 agent would have been trained in the military, marine corps etc etc plus they receive spy training at Mi6
So an Mi6 agent would have been trained in the military, marine corps etc etc plus they receive spy training at Mi6
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Calvin FRA.
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- Thread starter
- #46
Who is that a vote for?
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Also I feel as if the votes for Shaw should be reset as those reasons are being argued against and ignore John's own skill set. At this point it's just "FRA" and no context.
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I mean, I'll switch too Wick
I just hope it's understood that Mi6 trained operatives >> trained in the military for future debates. An agent has to be trained in the military and marine corps to be an agent anyway.
I just hope it's understood that Mi6 trained operatives >> trained in the military for future debates. An agent has to be trained in the military and marine corps to be an agent anyway.
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John Wick is my preferred anime between the two, but Deckard has this in the bag fra
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That also heavily depends on which branch of the military, which military we're talking about and how many tours they've been on. Typically speaking, US soldiers and more specifically the marines, SEALS and other special ops receive better training than Government agencies do. While both are skilled theres quite the difference. In the marines and such you have one job, and that is to kill and use anything as a weapon. In Mi6 they focus more around espionage, stealth and gathering information, hence why they aren't on the front lines of combat in wars and such. Also Military experience isn't needed in order to join Agencies such as Mi6, the FBI, CIA and such. Thats not even a requirement, however in jobs like these that type of experience is handy to have but isn't a requirement. All that's required in most cases are a bachelor's degree and knowledge revolving around technology. Hell, the only thing stopping me from joining Mi6 is that I'm not British.
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I'll contact a Discussion Mod to see if it is valid to be removed.
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I will remove the votes for Deckard until better reasoning is offered.
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I'd Ike to inquire on how my reasoning isn't valid
My argument is that John's going straight to stealth really wouldn't be a game changer as some claimed.
I also fail to see how if it comes to physical blows John takes this Deckard's got higher Lifting Strength as mentioned which will come in handy if they grapple (which Deckard goes to in CQC) he also scales to higher physical stats with regards to striking and dura (I'll get more in depth later on if you like)
On the point on John had better training in fighting then Shaw I'd like to point out he's seemingly been in the military longer (I'll do more research on the roles he's had in the army and who he scales to)
My argument is that John's going straight to stealth really wouldn't be a game changer as some claimed.
I also fail to see how if it comes to physical blows John takes this Deckard's got higher Lifting Strength as mentioned which will come in handy if they grapple (which Deckard goes to in CQC) he also scales to higher physical stats with regards to striking and dura (I'll get more in depth later on if you like)
On the point on John had better training in fighting then Shaw I'd like to point out he's seemingly been in the military longer (I'll do more research on the roles he's had in the army and who he scales to)
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- #54
Your vote can be added back then.
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All due respect I don't see why the voters using my reasoning can't have their votes back on (just saying because they don't have anything but FRA behind is an attitude not held by the wiki)
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Because your original vote is based off of misinformation, I.E not taking into accounts John's own advantages. John is the more skilled of the two, as he's done everything Shaw has and then some more ( Military training, more specifically served in the US marine's, 3rd battalion for years whereas Shaw only received traning from the UK military, more specifically the Air Force which isn't as combat oriented as a branch such as the mariens are. Has completely eradicated entire buildings of men, assassins and other well trained soldiers all while injured from previous movie's and while using improvised weapons.) Also higher AP and durability? I don't see anything suggesting that as John and Shaw scale to the same feats more of less, actually John scales to 4x that of the KE of a car ramming into someone as he got hit simultaneously and got right back up, has feats of overpowering those who can break bulletproof glass without the aid of any weapons, survived a fall from the continental and onto a car right after recieving many serious wounds. Also as for Lifting strength why is Shaw even scaling to characters who are Cleary superior to him? Hobbs is much stronger physically than Shaw is, and half of his feats listed are class 1 at best. Not that this matters as this would suggest that John would even bother engaging CQC whenver his preferred method of fighting is from a distance with a gun. And in this area is there John truly takes it, if it becomes a battle of sharpshooting then John is going to be walking away victorious from this bout. Not only are his weapons and equipment better ( Better experience handling firearms and better skill with them, better armor and dealing with people such as Shaw already. ) also John isn't going for stealth, which is a claim nobody had made. The argument is that John would start the match with his gun and likely end it from there, as he's much more skilled in the usage of firearms. As for Shaw's feats, his most impressive man slaughtering feat being his hospital feat doesn't stack up against to what John has done. The important part to take away from Shaw's feat is that it wasn't solely done with firearms and cqc, Shaw used explosives, grenades and other weapons. John did the same multiple times to a greater degree with only guns and his bare hands. Jorani has the better traning ( Childhood training in the mob, orphanage, military and finally becoming the best Assaisn in the business. ) compared to an objectively worse military traning ( US Marines, 3rd battalion vs UK air force and boat command and MI6 training. )
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How is my vote based on misinformation? I'm arguing my side by focusing on what they've got to bring to the table (In fact I even addressed John's going straight to the kill which was an argument thrown around)
Also I'd appreciate breaking your comment into paragraphs (Kinda makes it harder to read)
Now for the rest of your points
Also I'd appreciate breaking your comment into paragraphs (Kinda makes it harder to read)
Now for the rest of your points
- With the skill thing we've already established that M16 training requires extensive military training before being selected (Thanks to Arsenal I believe)
- Your argument John has done everything Shaw has is interesting. You seem to ignore Shaw having taken on everything from DSS agents, highly trained mercs and members of The Family (Remember him holding his own with Dom repeatedly and outright killing Han?)
- On the cleaning out whole buildings of people I'd note Shaw has done the same. He's wiped out whole buildings of arrmoured men guarding his brother.
- Also he has used bombs but many of these are still just him with guns (Hell not even that sometimes)
- You're right they don't scale to the same thing. Shaw scales higher. I'd provide all of these but a lot of these are on the pages for the verse but here's some he scales to anyway (Also anything Brixton does)
- Only Class 1? Are you sure there? (These are all on the pages btw)
- Shaw most definitely scales to the likes of Hobbs, Dom and Brixton (All of which put him here). Deckard matched Hobbs and Dom in 7 as well as Brixton in the new one (Hell once him and the Rock get around his processing they beat him pretty soundly). To say he doesn't scale to these guys is ridiculous with how they can trade blows with and restrain each other.
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I'd also ask again. If my argument is considered sound enough to remain why not put back those who voted FRA? It makes no sense to consider my vote and yet not the others for using my arguments as is accepted on site.
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Clearly, you haven't read my argument just judging by your first comment regarding Mi6. So let's start off with that.
With the skill thing we've already established that M16 training requires extensive military training before being selected (Thanks to Arsenal I believe
This is blatantly false and i can explain why. Mi6 is an intelligence agency, military experience is not required and in all honesty wouldn't help out much in a field such as mi6.
Contrary to popular belief being an intelligence officer is not about being able to become some great James Bond like Assassin. You don't need to be an excellent sharpshooter, prior experience in CQC could be helpful but even then it's very much unlikely you'll ever need it. What being an intelligence officer is really about is being able form close rapports and relationships with agents. Agents are HUMINT assets recruited by intelligence officers because they either have a position influence or they have access to valuable information to which an intelligence agency wants. To be able to formulate these close relationships you need to have great social and emotional skills above all else. In Agency's such as Mi6 what they look for is intelligence and education. Military experience and training isnt required, as i said i could quite literally join mi6 myself and the only thing stoping me is that I'm not from the UK. Now, as for Shaw's military experience, that doesn't quite stack up against what John has faced. Now while Shaw has been in the UK military he's only been in the air force which rarely see combat and are never the first deployed. Compare that to John's experience in the Marines, 3rd Battalion which meansn that he needs to serve at least 5 tours of combat the first troops that are typically deployed to Boots on Ground are the Marine's, the Navy, The Rangers and the SEALS. And that's the difference between John's Military experience and Shaw's Military experience, Johns experience in the Military had him dealing with the fronts lines while on Boots On Ground combat, Shaw could have done this at some point but the Air Force very very rarely do any Boots on Ground missions. Not to mention our US Troops receive much more brutal and difficult training as opposed to the training the UK Troops receive. ( The difference between the strongest military power and the worlds softest military power.) Shaw being in Mi6 isn't nearly impressive as you seem to think unless you think they do Men in Black shit which isn't the case.
Your argument John has done everything Shaw has is interesting. You seem to ignore Shaw having taken on everything from DSS agents, highly trained mercs and members of The Family (Remember him holding his own with Dom repeatedly and outright killing Han?)
Again, John has done everything Shaw has to a greater extent. Johm has slaughtered dozens of highly skilled Assassins before even joining the military. Do you remember the time John single handedly got rid of the Russian Mafia in New York? Do you remember John killing some of the most well protected people in the world who were guarded by men wearing bulletproof armour and various skilled assassins? How he killed everybody who came after him in Parabellum? How he defeated High Table Soliders who in their own right were compare to Brix? ( I.E being walking undamagble tanks? ) John has done everything Shaw has done without the aid of explosives and while injured.
On the cleaning out whole buildings of people I'd note Shaw has done the same. He's wiped out whole buildings of arrmoured men guarding his brother.
Again that's not very difficult wherever a lot of people can be taken out by bombs, which he did use. John has already accomplished this feat with guns and bladed weapons alone. This also applies to your next arguement.
You're right they don't scale to the same thing. Shaw scales higher. I'd provide all of these but a lot of these are on the pages for the verse but here's some he scales to anyway (Also anything Brixton does)
You should get these calculated, the first one could be impressive and lead to an upgrade however a lot of these feats wouldn't scale fully to anyone, as you'd need to use Surface Area to find out how much of the damage they took. And looking at them that's absolutely nothing John cant handle, hes survived multiple large explosions. Hell, even in the comics he survives car explosions and even as a kid survived a rocket launched getting shot near him. As for your lifting arguments, i have serious doubts that Shaw could replicate any of those, theres a reason why Shaw didn't do any of them and Hobbs and other characters did. Also fighting someone doesnt mean you scale to their lifting strength, that's only for AP,SS and durability unless you manage to overpower them. Also, Brix literally ****** both Shaw and Hobbs up multiple times throughout the movie and they needed to team up to beat him. It's not something that Shaw or Hobbs could do alone. They needed to 2v1 him. Hell, it's even in Brix's profile that he overwhelmed them in their fights and sent them flying. Especially if they needed to 2v1 that means that they don't stand a chance against him on a 1v1 fight. I.E they both downscale from Birx when by themselves by a large margin.
so long story short, your arguments are based on misinformation, nothing that's supported by any calcs for Shaw being stronger than Wick ( Untill then we must assume both are baseline however I'm currently gathering John's feats to calculate them.) Theres no reason to keep those FRA votes whenever your orginal argument doesn't hold up and is based on misinformation regarding the Mi6, military experience and skill. So far the only thing you've said thats been correct has been Shaw being stronger than Wick. We aren't gonna count those votes and this is something how the wiki treats votes. There's a lot wrong with your argument but there's even more issues with the Fast and Furious profiles. A lot of those feats don't have calcs to support them and a lot of them look like they can very easily reach into buildings tier. Someone should revise these profiles, they dont make a lot of sense.
With the skill thing we've already established that M16 training requires extensive military training before being selected (Thanks to Arsenal I believe
This is blatantly false and i can explain why. Mi6 is an intelligence agency, military experience is not required and in all honesty wouldn't help out much in a field such as mi6.
Contrary to popular belief being an intelligence officer is not about being able to become some great James Bond like Assassin. You don't need to be an excellent sharpshooter, prior experience in CQC could be helpful but even then it's very much unlikely you'll ever need it. What being an intelligence officer is really about is being able form close rapports and relationships with agents. Agents are HUMINT assets recruited by intelligence officers because they either have a position influence or they have access to valuable information to which an intelligence agency wants. To be able to formulate these close relationships you need to have great social and emotional skills above all else. In Agency's such as Mi6 what they look for is intelligence and education. Military experience and training isnt required, as i said i could quite literally join mi6 myself and the only thing stoping me is that I'm not from the UK. Now, as for Shaw's military experience, that doesn't quite stack up against what John has faced. Now while Shaw has been in the UK military he's only been in the air force which rarely see combat and are never the first deployed. Compare that to John's experience in the Marines, 3rd Battalion which meansn that he needs to serve at least 5 tours of combat the first troops that are typically deployed to Boots on Ground are the Marine's, the Navy, The Rangers and the SEALS. And that's the difference between John's Military experience and Shaw's Military experience, Johns experience in the Military had him dealing with the fronts lines while on Boots On Ground combat, Shaw could have done this at some point but the Air Force very very rarely do any Boots on Ground missions. Not to mention our US Troops receive much more brutal and difficult training as opposed to the training the UK Troops receive. ( The difference between the strongest military power and the worlds softest military power.) Shaw being in Mi6 isn't nearly impressive as you seem to think unless you think they do Men in Black shit which isn't the case.
Your argument John has done everything Shaw has is interesting. You seem to ignore Shaw having taken on everything from DSS agents, highly trained mercs and members of The Family (Remember him holding his own with Dom repeatedly and outright killing Han?)
Again, John has done everything Shaw has to a greater extent. Johm has slaughtered dozens of highly skilled Assassins before even joining the military. Do you remember the time John single handedly got rid of the Russian Mafia in New York? Do you remember John killing some of the most well protected people in the world who were guarded by men wearing bulletproof armour and various skilled assassins? How he killed everybody who came after him in Parabellum? How he defeated High Table Soliders who in their own right were compare to Brix? ( I.E being walking undamagble tanks? ) John has done everything Shaw has done without the aid of explosives and while injured.
On the cleaning out whole buildings of people I'd note Shaw has done the same. He's wiped out whole buildings of arrmoured men guarding his brother.
Again that's not very difficult wherever a lot of people can be taken out by bombs, which he did use. John has already accomplished this feat with guns and bladed weapons alone. This also applies to your next arguement.
You're right they don't scale to the same thing. Shaw scales higher. I'd provide all of these but a lot of these are on the pages for the verse but here's some he scales to anyway (Also anything Brixton does)
You should get these calculated, the first one could be impressive and lead to an upgrade however a lot of these feats wouldn't scale fully to anyone, as you'd need to use Surface Area to find out how much of the damage they took. And looking at them that's absolutely nothing John cant handle, hes survived multiple large explosions. Hell, even in the comics he survives car explosions and even as a kid survived a rocket launched getting shot near him. As for your lifting arguments, i have serious doubts that Shaw could replicate any of those, theres a reason why Shaw didn't do any of them and Hobbs and other characters did. Also fighting someone doesnt mean you scale to their lifting strength, that's only for AP,SS and durability unless you manage to overpower them. Also, Brix literally ****** both Shaw and Hobbs up multiple times throughout the movie and they needed to team up to beat him. It's not something that Shaw or Hobbs could do alone. They needed to 2v1 him. Hell, it's even in Brix's profile that he overwhelmed them in their fights and sent them flying. Especially if they needed to 2v1 that means that they don't stand a chance against him on a 1v1 fight. I.E they both downscale from Birx when by themselves by a large margin.
so long story short, your arguments are based on misinformation, nothing that's supported by any calcs for Shaw being stronger than Wick ( Untill then we must assume both are baseline however I'm currently gathering John's feats to calculate them.) Theres no reason to keep those FRA votes whenever your orginal argument doesn't hold up and is based on misinformation regarding the Mi6, military experience and skill. So far the only thing you've said thats been correct has been Shaw being stronger than Wick. We aren't gonna count those votes and this is something how the wiki treats votes. There's a lot wrong with your argument but there's even more issues with the Fast and Furious profiles. A lot of those feats don't have calcs to support them and a lot of them look like they can very easily reach into buildings tier. Someone should revise these profiles, they dont make a lot of sense.
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What do you mean by British Air Force? Do you mean S.A.S.?
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R.A.F, S.A.S is the special ops unit.
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I was actually going to join the Military here and try out for the SEALs but couldn't due to some minor health issues. Plus my step father was also a SEAL back in Afghanistan and the Gulf War so i consider myself quite knowledgeable in regards to armed forces.
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Yeah. Were you in any special forces yourself? Also thanks for the clarification.
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Nah like I said couldn't due to health issues but my old man has taught me a few tactics and I've trained with some soldiers in JROTC.
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It's still quite detailed information, regardless.
Wick seems to have faced not only far more enemies, in far worse conditions.
As well, using bombs to wipe out buildings is a shit ton less impressive than doing it by hand against people literally wearing full combat gear while you're in a suit and tie.
Also, props for you to wishing to pursue that path, Prince. It's unfortunate you couldn't, but it's very respectable.
Wick seems to have faced not only far more enemies, in far worse conditions.
As well, using bombs to wipe out buildings is a shit ton less impressive than doing it by hand against people literally wearing full combat gear while you're in a suit and tie.
Also, props for you to wishing to pursue that path, Prince. It's unfortunate you couldn't, but it's very respectable.
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Switching to Wicked FRA.
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- #71
That should be six for John. If people wish it I can return votes for Deckard.
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Shouldn't but if people wish to vote for Shaw based off of other reasons then yeah that's fine. The mi6 stuff has been thoroughly debunked and both have very similar military experience. Which are the main reasons why the FRA's for Shaw came from.
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John Wick FRA
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- #74
Ok.
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John: ( I am myself, The Prince of Counters, ThePixelKirby,The Arsenal1212,kredory,Christian high on, Crimson 7867 ) 7
Shaw: 1 (Hellbeast)
Grace starts now.
Shaw: 1 (Hellbeast)
Grace starts now.
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Also I'm gonna address some things about Shaw. That being the fights that Hellbeast linked, namely his fight against Dom. https://youtu.be/JEKMJSDNlH0
Yeah, He did sqaure up with Dom but for the majority of the fight Dom was ragdolling him especially whenever he managed to get a hold of him. As for Shaw's stomp, the footage he linked was cropped to make it seem like it was Shaw who did it with just a stomp. That's not what happened, a helicopter shot a missle down at the ground they were standing on creating a massive fissure and created a weak point where it could cave in and collapse with a small amount of force.
His fight against Hobbs? Yeah he did pretty good but at no point did Shaw restrain Hobbs, it was the other way around. And much like his fight with Dom it's evidently clear that he's the more skilled one whereas Dom and Hobbs have a notable strength advantage. That explosion? Yeah he took cover and was quite away from the explosion. https://youtu.be/1XqI8Lyp21A both Hobbs and Dom were able to ragdoll Shaw once they got a hold of him. Dom and Hobbs had a much closer fight as the two were actually comparable to each other whereas Shaw needed weapons to fight them and when they got a hold of him they were able to overpower him.
Yeah, He did sqaure up with Dom but for the majority of the fight Dom was ragdolling him especially whenever he managed to get a hold of him. As for Shaw's stomp, the footage he linked was cropped to make it seem like it was Shaw who did it with just a stomp. That's not what happened, a helicopter shot a missle down at the ground they were standing on creating a massive fissure and created a weak point where it could cave in and collapse with a small amount of force.
His fight against Hobbs? Yeah he did pretty good but at no point did Shaw restrain Hobbs, it was the other way around. And much like his fight with Dom it's evidently clear that he's the more skilled one whereas Dom and Hobbs have a notable strength advantage. That explosion? Yeah he took cover and was quite away from the explosion. https://youtu.be/1XqI8Lyp21A both Hobbs and Dom were able to ragdoll Shaw once they got a hold of him. Dom and Hobbs had a much closer fight as the two were actually comparable to each other whereas Shaw needed weapons to fight them and when they got a hold of him they were able to overpower him.
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He punches are able to harm Brixton. He also took a huge metal thing being slammed in his face.
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Issue with that is this is a weakened Brix they face and even then they needed to work together and use weapons. 1v1 Brix would have whopped them and even in a 2v1 he was still giving them quite a beating. I'm not saying Shaw doesn't scale to Dom or Hobbs but it's pretty obvious he downscale from them as they're both consistently shown to be stronger than him while Shaw is more skilled than the both of them. Aka, the strength gap between him and Wick isn't big not that it matters as both have fighting styles that revolve around combating against bigger and stronger opponents.
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Are you sure? When I watched it I interpreted the fight as them as being able to harm Brixton but his weird eye processing thing was preventing them from hitting him.
