JJK - The Speed Ceiling

[Arkenis]

(Reread this OP two times for good measure)

I am proposing a discussion rule essentially barring the acceptance of calcs for JJK characters for anything mhs+ and higher.

So this is something we as JJK supporters have forgotten for a very long time, something Gege put in the manga pretty early and established to us several times how ridiculous accomplishing such a task is in the world. That is Black Flash. Black Flash is when an impact of curse energy is applied within 0.000001 seconds of a physical hit, space is distorted. This is important for the rest of the verse as it shows us that no one is capable of applying curse energy within a 0.000001 timeframe at will on multiple occasions. This greatly restricts how we scale the rest of the verse and how valid calcs that get mhs+ or higher are.

The reaction time of 0.000001 is 1 microsecond
The beginning of MHS reaction time is 29.4 microseconds
Hakari's lightning reaction is 1.70233 microseconds while his movement is 5.32061 microseconds
Sukuna's travel speed in Shibuya is 3.5337 microseconds

So these are all fine feats for the verse, anything higher and we should be discarding it such as weakened Sukuna dodging EMW, Kenjaku "reacting" to BH.

This is also something to take into account heavily, as the basis for the mhs scaling of JJK is directly from Hakari's feat of reacting to "lightning", we later see Hakari isn't able to perceive a timeframe of 0.01s.

As many have brought up, the story can change and allow for characters to reach higher levels of speed, I completely agree and even think an argument can be made for Kashimo's statement about surpassing the human realm and the fact his brain functions at a faster rate, though how consistent this may be and how valid it is, is something to take into account when determining a jump in speed.

Agree (Mod/CGM): M3X, CloverDragon, KT, Damage, Armorchompy, Planck, UchihaSlayer
Disagree (Mod/CGM): Duedate

 

[Nierre]

following

 

[KingTempest]

Yeah Black Flash has been stated repeatedly to not be able to be done at will. makes a lot of sense for it to be a ceiling

 

[Shmeatywerbenmanjenson]

Gege sucks... so much....

 

[M3X_2.0]

Gege doesn't suck by not wanking the verse, they suck by writing the manga like their ass. I agree.

 

[Excellence616]

I agree

 

[M3X_2.0]

Actually, I would even expand this rule to accommodate the subsonic barrier that 90% of the verse can't surpass/reach. But I think this would require more debate.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I agree obviously, had this sentiment for some time

 

[SuperStar]

Agreed.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Yeah, ****. Ik this thread was made just to make sure to eliminate these "FTL feats" and im in total agreement. Not only because of the Black Flash but because Gege would find so ******* stupid his characters being faster than light that isnt even funny

 

[LordGinSama]

Agreed but I wouldn't use this as a permanent ceiling. If consistency and more feats are provided later in the manga then I'd be fine with having a thread to discuss this. However that's a big if, but I am ultimately against permanent discuss rules since shit can change at any point within any work of fiction.


Mangaka are low key bipolar as ****.

 

[Arkenis]

Actually, I would even expand this rule to accommodate the subsonic barrier that 90% of the verse can't surpass/reach. But I think this would require more debate.

Oh well you can check here as I've also worked on that to an extent here https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Arkenis/JJK_-_Speed_Blog?so=search

 

[Dr._whiteee]

I am proposing a discussion rule essentially barring the acceptance of calcs for JJK characters for anything mhs+ and higher.

So this is something we as JJK supporters have forgotten for a very long time, something Gege put in the manga pretty early and established to us several times how ridiculous accomplishing such a task is in the world. That is Black Flash. Black Flash is when an impact of curse energy is applied within 0.000001 seconds of a physical hit, space is distorted. This is important for the rest of the verse as it shows us that no one is capable of applying curse energy within a 0.000001 timeframe on multiple occasions. This greatly restricts how we scale the rest of the verse and how valid calcs that get mhs+ or higher are.

The reaction time of 0.000001 is 1 microsecond
The beginning of MHS reaction time is 29.4 microseconds
Hakari's lightning reaction is 1.70233 microseconds while his movement is 5.32061 microseconds
Sukuna's travel speed in Shibuya is 3.5337 microseconds

So these are all fine feats for the verse, anything higher and we should be discarding it such as weakened Sukuna dodging EMW, Kenjaku "reacting" to BH.

Obviously disagree given Gege literally just wrote Sukuna dodging an EM wave. Unless you're saying that feat doesn't exist idk why this would take precedent. Especially when the scale of power just jumped in the manga and it's not over. Why would we make a permanent rule to cover things moving forward?

Also, why are you applying the speed of application of jujutsu and making a direct equivocation to reaction speed? The two are independent things, in the same way my math calc speed or my ability to apply technique to my martial arts isn't a hardcap of my reaction speeds.

 

[Arkenis]

Agreed but I wouldn't use this as a permanent ceiling. If consistency and more feats are provided later in the manga then I'd be fine with having a thread to discuss this. However that's a big if, but I am ultimately against permanent discuss rules since shit can change at any point within any work of fiction.

Totally fine. I had some idea on Kashimo's statement about surpassing the human realm as some qualifier for him being above this, but no real evidence of him being able to casually do BF which I think should be a big factor

 

[KingTempest]

Mf dodged an EM wave and got hit by sound in the same page

 

[Arkenis]

Obviously disagree given Gege literally just wrote Sukuna dodging an EM wave. Unless you're saying that feat doesn't exist idk why this would take precedent. Especially when the scale of power just jumped in the manga and it's not over. Why would we make a permanent rule to cover things moving forward?

Also, why are you applying the speed of application of jujutsu and making a direct equivocation to reaction speed? The two are independent things, in the same way my math calc speed or my ability to apply technique to my martial arts isn't a hardcap of my reaction speeds.

And then that same Sukuna got hit by a sound wave. And go ahead show that Sukuna can hit BF whenever he wants, something not even Gojo can do and they scale to one another.

 

[LordGinSama]

Totally fine. I had some idea on Kashimo's statement about surpassing the human realm as some qualifier for him being above this, but no real evidence of him being able to casually do BF which I think should be a big factor

See my only issue with Kashimo scaling is that I'm not sure if anyone has ever truly dodged his LS attacks. As we know, there's a "spark." when doing CT's and considering Sukuna is well, Sukuna I think he more so reacted to the spark of the technique rather than the LS beam. (Kashimo can't do it instantly and requires that spark as all sorcerer's do.) So it's possible Sukuna just reacted to the spark rather than the speed.


Also it's gets further complicated because of the distance, which makes the feat nearly impossible to use therefore the feat itself shouldn't be used. I genuinely think LS should only scale to Kashimo's EM waves and nobody else, including Sukuna.

 

[LordGinSama]

Mf dodged an EM wave and got hit by sound in the same page

Exactly, it's inconsistent. But I do feel like Kashimo deserves that LS rating with his EM waves, it's an outlier for Sukuna to dodge it but not for Kashimo to unleash it given the drawbacks of his CT.

 

[Giannysmag]

Disagree cause my daddy Gojo deserves to be FTL

Agree for now

 

[Arkenis]

See my only issue with Kashimo scaling is that I'm not sure if anyone has ever truly dodged his LS attacks. As we know, there's a "spark." when doing CT's and considering Sukuna is well, Sukuna I think he more so reacted to the spark of the technique rather than the LS beam. (Kashimo can't do it instantly and requires that spark as all sorcerer's do.) So it's possible Sukuna just reacted to the spark rather than the speed.


Also it's gets further complicated because of the distance, which makes the feat nearly impossible to use therefore the feat itself shouldn't be used. I genuinely think LS should only scale to Kashimo's EM waves and nobody else, including Sukuna.

Yeah this is fine and completely logical and maps onto the series LOL, someone is gonna disagree with this though.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

And then that same Sukuna got hit by a sound wave. And go ahead show that Sukuna can hit BF whenever he wants, something not even Gojo can do and they scale to one another.

No, Sukuna decided to tank the reality warped sound wave, which is why he is smiling and makes fun of the attack.

When Kashimo uses the much more dangerous EM wave stated to disintegrate its target, we see Sukuna's reaction change to worry and he dodges the EM wave as you can see.

Let's read the description

Increasing agility by activating his brain's electrical signals. Optimizing and tuning sounds waves to match the natural frequencies of materials. Vaporizing irradiated objects using electro-magnetic waves. Kashimo's body has now surpassed the limits of mankind.

So A.) The wave made by Kashimo was quite literally him manifesting the sound into reality and is also "ptopmized and tuned" therefore should clearly not be treated as regular sound and B.) Sukuna clearly treated the EM wave with the intent to dodge, while he did not for the first attack he tanked.

This is also just consistent with established speeds. Random fodder dude reacts to a soundwave from a similar distance. Megumi reacts to assault rifle round from a similar distance.

You'r saying Gege's did not indeed mean to show us the extent of power the god tiers have by introducing Kashimo erasing th pre-established ceiling, and instead trying to erase the on panel FTL feat by appealing to Sukuna being unable to react to match 1 from under 3m away? A feat that would place him well below subsonic?

The internal consistency and math don't check out.

 

[KingTempest]

When Kashimo uses the much more dangerous EM wave stated to disintegrate its target, we see Sukuna's reaction change to worry and he dodges the EM wave as you can see.

He got hit with the super yell on the same page

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Lets also not forgot that Gege is the kind of "Uh, not irl accurate " and hardly make his characters be consistently above subsonic. If we follow the good common sense, he would never put any character with mass to move faster than light. Beside, FTL Sukuna is awful for the scaling. If in the next chapters Itadori or even Yuta just remotely react to any attack from Sukuna he is already gonna lose his FTL rating

This is also just consistent with established speeds. Random fodder dude reacts to a soundwave from a similar distance. Megumi reacts to assault rifle round from a similar distance.

Pls, dont start a general speed revision or this is gonna be 6 pages long again

 

[Godernet]

I feel like a discussion rule for an ongoing manga barring any and all characters from such ratings is overdoing it tbh.

making the rule about characters up to a certain point in the story or ones with blatant in story anti-feats makes a lot more sense imo.

 

[LordGinSama]

When Kashimo uses the much more dangerous EM wave stated to disintegrate its target, we see Sukuna's reaction change to worry and he dodges the EM wave as you can see.

Sukuna could have reacted to the spark or his hand, this does kinda look like aim dodging ngl.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

He got hit with the super yell on the same page

Yeah, did you see me blatantly reference that prior to talking about the EM with the accompanying explanation? Or the part where we are told Kashimo's sound waves are optimized and tuned thus changing their frequency? Those were pretty important parts to me explaining the above.

 

[KingTempest]

Yeah, did you see me blatantly reference that prior to talking about the EM with the accompanying explanation? Or the part where we are told Kashimo's sound waves are optimized and tuned thus changing their frequency? Those were pretty important parts to me explaining the above.

You do realize that sound when tuned or with a different frequency still moves at the same speed as the speed of sound right?

 

[Nierre]

Also, why are you applying the speed of application of jujutsu and making a direct equivocation to reaction speed? The two are independent things, in the same way my math calc speed or my ability to apply technique to my martial arts isn't a hardcap of my reaction speeds.

^

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Sukuna could have reacted to the spark or his hand, this does kinda look like aim dodging ngl.

Couple things wrong with this. By this logic, nothing can be scaled in JJK because people can always just say they are reacting to a spark.

Sukuna didn't know what was about to hit him, he only had inklings based on what he hypothesized.

The spark we see happening prior to Sukuna getting hit is also denoting the technique beginning to propagate. So Sukuna had to physically move out of the way before the attack traveled to hit him from inches away.

 

[Giannysmag]

Couple things wrong with this. By this logic, nothing can be scaled in JJK because people can always just say they are reacting to a spark.

Sukuna so far is the only character to have been able to see sparks, so no

 

[Dr._whiteee]

You do realize that sound when tuned or with a different frequency still moves at the same speed as the speed of sound right?

Sound that is manifested into reality? You're just linking me what happens to sound IRL based on conditions that clearly aren't happening here.

Let me ask you pretty blatantly. You think it makes sense for Sukuna to be blitzed by sound from < 3m away?

 

[KingTempest]

Sound that is manifested into reality? You're just linking me what happens to sound IRL based on conditions that clearly aren't happening here.

So now it can't be sound cause it's manifested into reality?
And he isn't manifesting shit into reality. He's yelling powerfully, producing sound which is tuned to be stronger (stronger sound at Mach 1)

Let me ask you pretty blatantly. You think it makes sense for Sukuna to be blitzed by sound from < 3m away? So much so that you are also by extension throwing away the feat that happens not pages later?

Honestly? I don't care. Nobody's worried about the distance or a "blitz" point.

If you can react to light then sound shouldn't be an issue. He got tagged by sound. That's an issue.

 

[Arkenis]

Let me ask you pretty blatantly. You think it makes sense for Sukuna to be blitzed by sound from < 3m away?

Unironically the speed of characters being around sos is more consistent than the bs lightning speed that got accepted.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Even the fastest sound waves are MHS+ at best btw

Edit: It’s actually MHS, specifically 36,000 m/s

 

[Nierre]

 

[Arkenis]

It's like you just wanna throw out consistency for the speed scaling and go with every fast result we get. You must make speed like LS, FTL extremely consistent and shown to be apparent within the story. BF is an incredibly big nod that these characters are not FTL. Gojo the guy with godly eyes, being able to see and process the world around him greater than others still can not perform BF at will, that is a blatant showing of these characters not being FTL

 

[Dr._whiteee]

So now it can't be sound cause it's manifested into reality?

Is that what I said?

And he isn't manifesting shit into reality. He's yelling powerfully, producing sound which is tuned to be stronger (stronger sound at Mach 1)

"optimizing and tuning" implies he is messing with nature of the sound.

Honestly? I don't care. Nobody's worried about the distance or a "blitz" point.

Yeah, then you are being dishonest. Consistency works both ways. If the foundation of your argument is "he got tagged by sound" despite the factors of the sound being weird, Sukuna not taking it seriously, and the idea of Sukuna being tagged by a mach 1 wave from under 3 meters, then that is also widely inconsistent with the speed scale established.

If you can react to light then sound shouldn't be an issue. He got tagged by sound. That's an issue.

Your argument would make sense if it was just regular sound and Sukuna didn't blatantly not care about getting tagged by it, and then dodge light no more than a few seconds later.

 

[Ped2018]

Lol

 

[KingTempest]

Is that what I said?

"optimizing and tuning" implies he is messing with nature of the sound.

Optimizing and tuning sound is something that can be done in real life, and said sound still moves at Mach 1

Yeah, then you are being dishonest. Consistency works both ways. If the foundation of your argument is "he got tagged by sound" despite the factors of the sound being weird, Sukuna not taking it seriously, and the idea of Sukuna being tagged by a mach 1 wave from under 3 meters, then that is also widely inconsistent with the speed scale established.

You worry too much about irrelevant shit like this but 1 feat in the entire 200+ page manga is apparently more consistent than getting hit by sound

Your argument would make sense if it was just regular sound and Sukuna didn't blatantly not care about getting tagged by it, and then dodge light no more than a few seconds later.

Hit by sound -> Dodge light -> Hit by sound

I can get blitzed by a fly. If the fly ain't hurt me I don't care about it. He didn't care cause it was weak.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Anyway, this isn't really the thread for arguing about the LS speed.

Addressing the OP I would like answers to the following:

Also, why are you applying the speed of application of jujutsu and making a direct equivocation to reaction speed? The two are independent things, in the same way my math calc speed or my ability to apply technique to my martial arts isn't a hardcap of my reaction speeds.

and why we are making a speed cap pre-emptively on a series that hasn't ended.